Yaguar
Well-Known Member
Absolutely slammed for a bit (same as I have been a lot lately I'm noticing). I'll take you up on that soon though.
DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
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Absolutely slammed for a bit (same as I have been a lot lately I'm noticing). I'll take you up on that soon though.
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
I would think Ein would do pretty well against Brad no? Considering he's one of the few chars with a low OH, which really helps against brad.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
The low OH helps in close range when Brad is abusing his lows, laydown SS and WRK pressure but that doesn't deal with Brads SS that crushes highs since Brad is left in a standing position. It's also not a match deciding tool because Brad can use that to setup hi counter low throw scenarios since his offense is mostly lows anyway so it's not uncommon that a player would attempt to low block. So whether it's close quarters combat or at range brad has methods to evade Ein's strikes making it annoying to mount a fully effective offense. I'll admit 7-3 is pushing it but this is definitely a 6-4 in Brad's favor because he doesn't have to respect Ein at range or close quarters as much as some other characters do.
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AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
@Tenryuga
I was playing a really good Ein player who knew what he was doing (can't remember name, sorry.) we had a great fight with Lisa vs Ein and Tina vs Ein. I picked Christie and whoooaaaa! Big difference in his fighting. See with Lisa vs Ein we both did our fair share in spacing and in Tina vs Ein he did extremely good in spacing her out. Christies slippery ass comes aboard and he totally shakes up. He did try to space but we all know Christie can do her fair share in spacing. He was smart not to stay in her face. But he really did not know how to come in on her. He even stopped in mid-string because he knew about the jak. The fight was that one type one sided in my favor. He was doin tracking sweeps (66p2k) that caught me only a few times. His game totally changed when Christie showed up and i can understand why. But he couldn't space the way he wanted because we were in Temple of the Dragon, so obviously Christie's mid range game had the better chance. I did notice that he did a low throw a lot (not sure if an OH) that was kinda fucking with me but he really couldn't depend on it BUT it did put some small limit on my jak opportunities. I did win the match because I got him pinned to the wall and his defense fell apart. So Tenryuga, as an Ein player, what would you have done in this situation?
I was playing a really good Ein player who knew what he was doing (can't remember name, sorry.) we had a great fight with Lisa vs Ein and Tina vs Ein. I picked Christie and whoooaaaa! Big difference in his fighting. See with Lisa vs Ein we both did our fair share in spacing and in Tina vs Ein he did extremely good in spacing her out. Christies slippery ass comes aboard and he totally shakes up. He did try to space but we all know Christie can do her fair share in spacing. He was smart not to stay in her face. But he really did not know how to come in on her. He even stopped in mid-string because he knew about the jak. The fight was that one type one sided in my favor. He was doin tracking sweeps (66p2k) that caught me only a few times. His game totally changed when Christie showed up and i can understand why. But he couldn't space the way he wanted because we were in Temple of the Dragon, so obviously Christie's mid range game had the better chance. I did notice that he did a low throw a lot (not sure if an OH) that was kinda fucking with me but he really couldn't depend on it BUT it did put some small limit on my jak opportunities. I did win the match because I got him pinned to the wall and his defense fell apart. So Tenryuga, as an Ein player, what would you have done in this situation?
QueenJakheiho
Well-Known Member
Momiji vs Christie 4-6...
Yeah better i say nothing more. Christie is the ultimate devil for 99% here on FSD, but you all should check her frame data and how crazy unsafe & how easy punishable she is in reality.
Jak here Jak there, the most here dont use her, have maximize a half knowledge over her pretty big moveset and then wondering they cant deal with her!
Everyone here should play Christie for 1 week and then they would see how complex and timing based is her stance. Shes is very good no doubt, a big reward character when you can play her but do 1 mistake you get so hard punished, you guys should cry after sarah or Gen Fu not over Christie all the time. Sarah had +1 one her simple P...that i call balanced.
Yeah better i say nothing more. Christie is the ultimate devil for 99% here on FSD, but you all should check her frame data and how crazy unsafe & how easy punishable she is in reality.
Jak here Jak there, the most here dont use her, have maximize a half knowledge over her pretty big moveset and then wondering they cant deal with her!
Everyone here should play Christie for 1 week and then they would see how complex and timing based is her stance. Shes is very good no doubt, a big reward character when you can play her but do 1 mistake you get so hard punished, you guys should cry after sarah or Gen Fu not over Christie all the time. Sarah had +1 one her simple P...that i call balanced.
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AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
Lolz. We know that. It's just the fact that she is so fast and unpredictable that it really doesn't even matter. When you fight Christie you have no idea what she is going to do. You have to guess, you know this too QJ. same thing for Ayane and Kasumi. Momiji can go fuck herself.
Point is that they have great mix ups and mind games that you just can't block and punish that easy. Let alone their speed.
QueenJakheiho
Well-Known Member
Check my final post i was edit them.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
It sounds like he was using the low OH which is smart against Christie as that can catch her JAK. As you say Ein can't depend on that because it is very read intensive but it does indeed help in that MU. When Christie is on the offensive Ein has to rely on blocking, holds, and reacting / reading her JAK. I say reacting because if Ein sees her JAK he can use 3P to try and score a counter-hit. This is only the case AFTER he sees her JAK animation. If he blindly throws out 3P it's getting evaded and he is getting stunned. Btw everything I post for his MU's is me speaking from experience and not paper arguments so I've been in these situations I'm describing. Always remember whenever you see Ein do 66P don't JAK as your main response. If you JAK chances are you are getting counter hit stunned by his sweep. Wait and block the mid / low mix-up and punish if he did 66PP or 66P2K or just try to interrupt him if it looks like he free cancelled 66P.
Anyway you asked what I would do with my back to the wall in that situation? I would do three things: look for highs that I can hold while waiting for punishment and interrupt opportunities. I would have said sidestep too but chances are with my back to the wall you are looking for a spot to put in her wall throw. I don't want to include too many defensive options that makes that more rewarding than it already is for you. The reason I say high hold is because that is the most rewarding hold for me in that situation. It ends your pressure and reverses the situation because now your back is to the wall. The same for his 6T. Ein's 6T will put the opponent to the wall and not allow a wake-up kick which basically gives me the chance to start an offense. So in a way you have to be careful what you choose to pressure me with when I'm cornered like that because if you make a mistake I steal alot of momentum away.
This MU would be different if he had a fast tracking mid or low. If he had a fast tracking low he could just throw that out and chances are it would crush some highs, possibly beat her mids due to her attacking from negative frames and it would beat JAK because it tracks. Really her speed helps her in the MU but it's not the main reason why it's in her favor. It's in her favor because EXPERT (underlined capitalized and bolded for emphasis) usage of JAK makes it difficult for Ein to apply offensive pressure and forces him to rely on space control, defensive reads and reactions.
Yaguar
Well-Known Member
I play Christie thanks and that is why it's one of the MU's I have decent confidence in.
It's about tools. Christie has more. I even rated Momiji's safety as a pro in the MU but safety only applies to blocking which isn't the entire game.
Christie is unsafe, I know. I've got the frame data don't worry but she has follow ups with a large execution window that earn her respect for cancelling a string early and a JAK exit that is +3 (
or ). Momiji doesn't have the up close tool set to deal with Christie and Christie has the same if not better foot work to make the mid range game not completely in Momiji's favour (whiff and punish or
etc). Momiji's lurch forward on nearly all her attacks closes a lot of distance meaning patience can win Christie a match.I'm welcome to see something that is a tool that would shut down Christie's options at CQC neutral and I'll gladly call it a 5-5 or even 6-4 if you wanted. It isn't that Momiji can't win it. It just takes some extra work on a tools vs. tools look.
QueenJakheiho
Well-Known Member
I play Momiji too thanks...
Sure more tools lol
3 Sitdowns stuns, faint stun, 2 Stances, Powerblow possible from 2 positions, Throw Launcher, Backturn stun (9k), far better bound stuns
However its a 5 to 5.
Sure more tools lol
3 Sitdowns stuns, faint stun, 2 Stances, Powerblow possible from 2 positions, Throw Launcher, Backturn stun (9k), far better bound stuns
However its a 5 to 5.
Yaguar
Well-Known Member
Please explain.
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
I'm going to have to reply to this one.
On a side-note, Leifang's defensive tools have gotten slightly better, while her offensive tools have gotten WAY worse.
You didn't finish the sentence. In any case, considering Ayane's grabs and the easiness at which she can space, plus her long range options, Leifang will have a hard time keeping close. Leifang can't use her parries or her unshu all that freely, because Ayane's grabs and her crushes will hurt her hard. The crushes and her evasiveness can also make using the proper OH difficult for Leifang. Leifang's long range options are slow, while Ayane's are fairly fast. I say at least: 4.5 - 5.5 in favor of Ayane. If I'm not allowed to use fractions, make it 4 - 6.
I don't think it's that bad. Sure, Leifang has the speed advantage, but, she is not the best at breaking the opponent's defense, because anything that's not a high is unsafe, which does give a good Bass player chances to use OHs. It does give Bass the option to either crush her, or simply wait and grab her. Her lows only give minor stuns which give you nothing to follow-up with. Her Unshu, parries and sabakis are risky to use. And remember that Bass is extremely heavy. Despite Leifang's speed advantage, the effort to break down the defending opponent, combined with the miserable juggle damage you can get, while Bass can take almost half your life with a single grab, at best it's 5.5 - 4.5 in favor of Leifang. If I'm not allowed to use fractions, make it 5 - 5.
No way this is an even match-up. Christie outspeeds Leifang in every regard. Her JAK is hard for Leifang to deal with since her tracking moves are either high, or a move within a string. Christie's offense is all over the place and to be effective defensively you have to have some kind of anchor to defend against, which is pretty much non-existent against Christie due to her extremely varied offense. It's a 4-6 in favor of Christie.
Hayate doesn't exactly suck at close range. He has his sidestepping move which is surprisingly useful against Leifang. I agree it's a 5-5 though, I think.
Nah... Hitomi has great lows. Leifang has almost nothing to deal with them, except 9KK and 6F+K, which both give you almost nothing. Hitomi has enough tools to dance around Leifang's parries and unshu. I'd say it's a 5 - 5.
Despite Jann Lee having excellent spacing, I don't exactly see it as a disadvantage for Leifang. It's only a disadvantage if you play recklessly . His long range isn't that great in itself. He only has his flying kick, or mid kick attacks for closing in, and we all know what Leifang can do with mid kicks. Jann Lee is not that hard to defend against from range, and up close, his attacks are nothing Leifang's defense can't deal with. Definitely a 5 - 5.
Just want to give some additional info here. Kokoro is one of the few characters where it's beneficial for Leifang to stay at range. At long range, Kokoro's options are only punches, which is where Leifang's Unshu will shine. Up close, it's a slight advantage for Kokoro due to her in-string grabs and her mix-ups. Although she's side-stepable, her offense is still great enough to give Leifang a run for her money. It's a 5 - 5.
On a side-note, Leifang's defensive tools have gotten slightly better, while her offensive tools have gotten WAY worse.
I don't think Leifang has the advantage here. Momiji again has great lows, and she can outspace Leifang easily. She also outspeeds Leifang. Leifang has an uphill battle, since Momiji can get respectable damage from hit launch, while Leifang needs to work harder for launching. It's either a 5 - 5 or a slight advantage for Momiji.
Ha. I actually don't agree with this one. I personally don't get why people find it so hard to beat Sarah with Leifang. Sure, she has speed. But if you notice, there are a lot of strings and offensive setups that low -> high, or mid -> high. That's the moment to strike. Sarah is another one of those characters that you do not wish to fight up close. Start with spacing a bit, and you'll be amazed how well Leifang does. 4.5 - 5.5 seems good i favor of Sarah. If I'm not allowed to use fractions, make it 5 - 5.
Saber
Well-Known Member
You only compare VIABLE tools. If a specific character's tool is basically useless, it's disregarded completely.
- In a real match, you will never land her aerial PB, period. If you could cancel out of it, it'd be a different story, but it's a far cry from it. Never used anywhere.
- Her throw launcher is almost never used because in stun because the easy way to deal with Tenku is low hold.
- Momiji's only option is Tenku P, and it nets very little damage. Never used.
- 6H+K is only useful after a CH 6P+K because it's very slow, very telegraphed, and very unsafe. Never used in neutral.
- Momiji's jumping "stances" are only safe in stun, but even then, the mixups are terrible. Never used in neutral.
- You'll almost never land a Bound with Momiji since her stun-launch game is far superior to it. "Bound" is just another launch state. Good, but not good enough.
- 9K is only useful in open stance. Inconsistent so very rarely used.
We're talking tools that can specifically deal with Christie and her own tools.
Momiji has enough mid and low-tracking moves to deal JAK up close, but they're not enough. Momiji needs to stay at mid-range. After any knockdown, Momiji MUST space, because up-close, Momiji doesn't have much advantage besides her stun-launch game. She also has 2P, but that's about it. What's even worse is Momiji has to read Christie in order to win - there's no GTFO move Momiji can use against Christie. Momiji can try to crush Christie, but she has to read them or she's going to get punished badly. Christie, on the other hand, can effortlessly crush Momiji to death because Momiji depends on highs quite a bit (her fastest launcher, her best stun, her best crush, her fastest tracking move which is useless here), plus Momiji's iffy hitboxes makes it hard to actually make Christie feel pressured. Momiji has a very hard time getting in to actually start her offense because her long range moves are all linear. Momiji has to be patient and capitalize on the opponent's mistake to get in. Momiji's lucky she's a lot safer, but the fact remains, Christie has the advantage. It doesn't help that Christie's pretty fast too. 4-6 Christie.
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U_C_A_F
Well-Known Member
Eliot is definitely not 6-4 against Ein, if anything its one of Eliots few easier matchups. The one and only advantage Ein has in this matchup is his range which isn't enough to put him ahead.
Offense:
Eliot can easily interrupt Ein with 7p, high crush him with 2h+k and 3p+k, which launches on CH, low crush him with 6h+k which gives him psuedo FT options. has 3 guardbreaks that give him +1 to +5 frame advantage and on top of it all has many long highly delayable strings to put non-stop pressure on him. Ein has no special evasive sidesteps , parries or spacing tools to avoid Eliots onslaught and has to rely on holds and extremely solid defense.
Defense:
Eliot is definitely the clear cut winner in this category. you glossed over and downplayed his parries which are in fact a big advantage to Eliot and limit an opponents mixup options on him in neutral. Ein's mixups aren't really anything special and he mostly relies on mid p and mid k while having easily reactable lows. Eliot's parries may not guarantee much but it puts opponents immediately in a guessing game where Eliot has many options at his disposal. Eliot also has a solid sabaki which puts opponents in a deep stun on hit and gives him access to single stun CB setups
Throws:
Another area Eliot beats out Ein. 33T is pretty much all Ein has as far as high damage throws go. while Eliot can exceed that damage with his 236T into bnb juggle which can carry opponents across the stage into walls due to his choryu refloat. Eliot also has 214T reset throw that leaves him at +10 and the opponent has to guess one of the many mixups Eliot has and in Eins case he has nothing other than holds and blocking to defend against it.
for all intents and purposes Ein is a gimped Hitomi whose definitely 6-4 against Eliot which is why i cant agree Ein has the advantage since it would mean Hitomi has 7-3 advantage on Eliot which isn't the case. Imo Eliot has the advantage over Ein at 5.5-4.5 at worst and 6-4 at best.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I'll have to disagree with you when you say Ein doesn't have the spacing tools to avoid Eliot's onslaught because like I stated if I'm spacing correctly and you are trying to spearhead your way to me at range with strings you take 46P, 236P, 4K, or 6P+K. At closer ranges where the spacing isnt good enough for those options I have 6P / 6K to intercept. So Eliot can't really just put things on the screen like his dragon kick and other gap closers with large recovery too often. I agree with everything else you stated though for the other categories.
I didn't mean to downplay Eliot's parries; I should have worded what I said better. The 50 / 50 scenarios it provides are indeed good and help alot. I just don't think they are a match deciding factor to say "Hey Eliot rapes Ein!". In CQC hell yeah Ein is struggling to open Eliot up more than he does to some others in the cast.
So let's say 5.5 - 4.5 Eliot rounded up to 5-5? From what I read in your post Eliot definitely has better tools than Ein but I don't feel like this is 6-4 for Ein in practice and match play because it's not like Eliot has a solid answer to Ein's superior footsies and whiff punishment. It's good enough that proficient play has Ein controlling the pace of the match. In CQC Eliot is controlling the pace of the match even on my offense because I have to shape it so I don't get caught by parries too often which will be hard because Ein relies on his mids especially 3P to get big damage.
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
I was thinking of another version of Lisa vs Ein matchup.
We all know they are very good in spacing. But if they are going at it up close, I think it goes straight in Lisa's favor. Her mix ups are very good and his are eh. Even moves that can be punished, like her 7k or 4h+k, gives her a push back so she basically doesn't have to worry about punishment with certain moves. The push back of 7k is good because she can harass him with it and it has follow ups and can put her in another stance (CAR stance). Her OHs, she has more and she has OHs for close range (236T, 66T, BT T) and OHs that can work from a distance (BT 8T, CAR stance T, BT 6T). They both have strings that can go pretty far like Lisa's 6ppp or kkkk and Eins 1k6pk. When it comes to getting in I also thinks that is in Lisa's due to her CAR stance which can hit on all levels and has an OH. I think Lisa is better at the poking game and can bait holds for throws and make better CB setups. She literally has tons of CB setups. Ein usually just have to stun then launch since his mix up game isn't all that good. Imo it 6-4 Lisa.
We all know they are very good in spacing. But if they are going at it up close, I think it goes straight in Lisa's favor. Her mix ups are very good and his are eh. Even moves that can be punished, like her 7k or 4h+k, gives her a push back so she basically doesn't have to worry about punishment with certain moves. The push back of 7k is good because she can harass him with it and it has follow ups and can put her in another stance (CAR stance). Her OHs, she has more and she has OHs for close range (236T, 66T, BT T) and OHs that can work from a distance (BT 8T, CAR stance T, BT 6T). They both have strings that can go pretty far like Lisa's 6ppp or kkkk and Eins 1k6pk. When it comes to getting in I also thinks that is in Lisa's due to her CAR stance which can hit on all levels and has an OH. I think Lisa is better at the poking game and can bait holds for throws and make better CB setups. She literally has tons of CB setups. Ein usually just have to stun then launch since his mix up game isn't all that good. Imo it 6-4 Lisa.
AkaShocka
Well-Known Member
I only played Tina vs Ein maybe 3 or 4 times so I can't give you an exact thought but I can try. Ein beats her is spacing and speed. I really don't know what to say about mix ups because all of there mix ups are string based (Example: Tina's 6pp2p, 6ppp, 6pp6p, 6pp2k, and Ein's pp2kk or 1k6p2k) and can't really mix up with other strings. Sure they can do it here and there but there's isnt as good as Christie's or Lisa's would be because they don't have stances to go in and out of. They both are unsafe constantly and have poor mix ups. But Ein can really turn it around if he spaces her out. A lot of her reaching moves put her in A LOT of disadvantage and even disadvantage on block or on hit (236K or 66ppk as example). Her 6h+k nerf has really hurt her. Now its way to unsafe to use out of the blue. She does have 1 option that goes full screen (66p+k) but anyone can see that coming. But Tina's damage output is INSANE she can get a lot of damage off on NH. She can get about 35% - 40% on NH with kp 8p 6p+k 9k 6pp6k 4t. But he can hold out if it of course. She has better throws and is better up close. If she gets 41236T on HiC thats like 45% I think. But its very close to half life on HiC. Her 1p can really mess with him due to it high crushing. Her throws, and combo damage output is what Ein really has to worry about. But he can space her out real easy because she can't space for her life. Its probably a 5-5.
Definitely at least 4-6 in Lei Fang's favor. Bass' speed is God awful and she has an enormous gain on him when she parries him or when he is unsafe, his crushes are extremely few and seldom useful against her (or anyone for that matter), she can parry on Bass' backturning throw combos (parry while back turned), she crushes him very easily making it very hard to use his OHs aside from low OHs, 1P+K is damn near unpunishable, her OHs and OH type strikes shut down his striking game when she isn't parrying, his options are limited to playing extremely defensive against a defensive character and wait for the golden opportunity to throw punish or go for a pickup. She doesn't need to break defenses, all she needs to do is just chill.
Biggest thing against her in this is her weight vs. his. Sure she has to modify combos but why combo when you can just tear through just about everything he has?