DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[AkaShocka]

I will just say this. Sarah will fuck with you no matter who you are or where you are. I don't care if you are Ayane in and open stage or Hayabusa in a ceiling stage. Sarah will always have your number no matter what. She has insane mix ups, amazing pressure, decent throws, and safeness ( which in my opinion is one of the best things to have). She can trick for with frame traps and frame advantages. The frame traps and advantages alone will already be fucking with you. She has multiple stances and one of those stances parry. Almost everything that puts her in Flamingo is +4, +6 etc. Her 6p is 11i and high crushes with follow ups. She has a backflip where NOTHING in the entire game can hit her out of until the end of the animation (it's -55 at the end, so please take advantage of that). Against her FLA you may think a good 2p or 1p will be good for crushing but her FLA p+k (fake) parries low punches. Aside from 9f jabs and high crushes anything above 12 frames (excluding high crushes) will lose to her FLA p after she enters FLA from certain strings. Breakable objects, lol, she can do good damage with breakable objects too. Her normal combos do great damage too. If Sarah gets you on HiC with a CB followed by a good combo, half your health is gone. She has many fakes into FLA stance which will also fuck with you. Sarah is way too much.

 

[Argentus]

Leon has no 7-3 disfavored or favored match up. all his bad match ups are 6-4 at worst and that only due to ALL the slower grappler characters being automatically at disadvantage to faster mixup heavy characters. He has too many good tools for any character to just completely dominate him if the Leon player is smart and knows the match up of his opponent, that includes the likes of sarah..

Hes also a special case where his match ups can completely change depending on the stage. Even though Home is by far his best, He still gets a big boost in other stages like temple of the dragon, sanctuary,lost world, fuel, and many of the other stages riddled with dangerzones that have breakable objects,explosive walls, cliffs etc. simply due to his ability to control his opponents position after any launcher with his air throw and the huge amount of guaranteed damage he can get from them when thrown into breakable objects.

Don't have the time to do a full breakdown just that pretty much all the A-S Tier characters like alpha, fu, sarah, ayane, christie etc are his bad matchups at 6-4 disfavor and the bottom tier characters like bass, ein, eliot, are 6-4 in his favor while the rest of the cast is pretty much an even 5-5 match up.

Just...a single forward grab on an opponent over water is example enough. So much damage off a simple environment.

Really, just all the variations of the neck lift. Against the wall, over water, over a cliff. That little move is proof enough.

Argentus is wrong and AkaShocka is right.

edit: Fork pretty much summed it up, though I'm not entirely convinced on Sarah. Otherwise, yeah. That.

...how am I "wrong"? Nothing Fork or Aka said contradicted anything I said. In fact, it just supported what I said.

 

[Pictured Mind]

Anyway, I'd say he has favorable MUs against Bass, Akira, Kokoro, Eliot, & Rachel
and that he has unfavorable MUs against Sarah, Pai, Hayate, Momiji, Kasumi, Ayane, Alpha, Rig, & Zack
with the rest being more or less equal.

I can agree on the favorable MU against Rachel. Both of them aren't the fastest character. They have some fast moves but overall are pretty slow. He has some of the best throws in the game so Rachel will get destroyed if she uses her OH (her standing OH is one of her best tools, and it becomes extremely risky in this MU). Because Leon is a heavy, Rachel can't max out the damage on her juggles, while it doesn't make a big difference that Rachel is heavy because Leon should not rely on juggles that much anyway. I could agree on 6-4 for Leon.

That's my little input. I don't feel like I have enough experience with the other characters (and writing MU's in general) to do more.

 

[J.D.E.]

While I'm no Fork, I do main Leon, and I gotta say...I think Lisa, Ayane and Kasumi give him the hardest time. They seem to just be able to poke him way too well. The ninjas are obviously just a speed advantage, plus almost every poke they do leading to a juggle. Lisa is just a matter of range and maneuverability. She seems to go through almost all of my leon's offense. And I mean just flat out PASS THROUGH IT.

Hayate's a chump, but Ryu's teleport spam is always a nuisance.

Then there's characters like Jann Lee and Helena, where it's just a matter of not letting them get momentum going.

I havent really found any other characters have a real advantage of Leon, so he can wreck all them in seconds pretty easy. Only time he has trouble is just with universal stuff that's not character specific, like juggles, ground attacks, stuns, etc.

I don't really know how i'm supposed to list 'matchups', but there ya go.

It's speed advantage but ninjas aren't the only ones. Speed can only play a certain role in the match up, but defensive tools are to be taken into account, too. Along with ways to deal with their defensive tools. Kasumi, Christie, & Pai all have that over him & can interrupt his strings. Ryu's teleport spams are only gimmicks that most people fall for. He can either be freestepped or even sidestepped once you see it. Or even ducked or low throw punished if you see he's going for a teleport grab. Same for Lisa, going for the jumping grabs. I don't really have match up numbers, but I would have to say that I don't think his matches with them are 7-3 or above. Plus, Leon is not even a bad character. The mechanics don't allow that.

 

[Malfury]

Is there any reason why there is 6 tiers? I don't think the bottoms are at such a huge disadvantage from the top. I think the lowest tier should be C or D at least.

 

[XZero264]

Fork has it right but I have my own thoughts for Leon.

Sarah - 4 (not 3-7 in her favor. She is good but not that dominating against Leon. If we are going to argue about combo damage and being safe then think about what Leon can do with his guard breakers and without the need to combo. If Sarah could run the match based on the environment like Leon can then I could see it as a 3-7).

Hayate - 5 (aside from poke speed and his / he really doesn't have anything to outshine Leon)

Brad - 5 (evasion is pretty much all he has on Leon, but that can easily be beaten with a crouching OH).

Mila - 4 (aside from environmental control and his throws everything he can do she can do a whole lot better).

I really want to put Leon vs. Bayman at 4-6. Bayman's strikes, rolls, parries, and number of OHs are the deal makers here.


Leon is a solid mid tier character but he really fluctuates based on where he is fighting. The environment can make some good/even matchups into great ones and his bad matchups into even/better ones.

 

[Brute]

Leon's superior damage output and high throw punishment options do a number on Bayman and are a good counter to his OHs. Leon also has the better environment damage. I put them at 5-5.

Hayate's range game and spacing is a bitch for Leon. I'd say that one goes in Hayate's favor, if anything.

 

[Black Dragon]

Hayate's higher that Ryu?

What?

 

[Brute]

Hayate's higher that Ryu?

What?

And why is that surprising?

 

[DR2K]

Rachel only has a couple of bad match ups. Mostly to speed characters, but once she gets you in stun, and she has some very good ones too that you're not getting out without a proper hold. She also has high throw damage, offensive holds that grant a ton of frame advantage, and a down attack that allows her to avoid wake up kicks and grants her more frame advantage. She's also a relatively(to the other heavies) fast heavy weight character.

 

[Black Dragon]

And why is that surprising?

What makes Hayate better than Ryu, apart from range?

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

Easier to use, tricks are more diverse, better spacing, command side step, quicker attacks

That's what I've noticed at least

 

[Brute]

What makes Hayate better than Ryu, apart from range?

Speed, mix-ups, guess-scenario animations, command SS, etc.

 

[Crext]

Rachel only has a couple of bad match ups. Mostly to speed characters, but once she gets you in stun, and she has some very good ones too that you're not getting out without a proper hold. She also has high throw damage, offensive holds that grant a ton of frame advantage, and a down attack that allows her to avoid wake up kicks and grants her more frame advantage. She's also a relatively(to the other heavies) fast heavy weight character.

Hoi, hoi. Got any MU (match-up) numbers going with that info then?

The epic saga for data collection continues! Want to know how it will end? Find out in the next episode of "Herding the FSD Community"!

 

[VirtuaKazama]

You guys encouraged me to post up Leifang MUs.

 

[Tenryuga]

Don't overestimate Hayate and don't underestimate Hayabusa. Hayate has a far better neutral game than Busa. HIs string mixup is mediocre due to his lack of good delayable moves and almost everything leading into a mid punch knockback instead of a stun. He must also must rely on 50 / 50 strike or throw scenarios to open you up in CQC and has a very unsafe offense. His low sweep is not a factor because that thing is so slow you won't land it very often on a competent opponent unless you are using it raw during spacing. He gets nothing guaranteed in the stun game and his best stun game tools are mid punches. Despite these flaws his performance in the neutral game is great and he can play footsies alot better than a great amount of the cast which is what makes Hayate a solid viable character. The fact that he can perform at any range means he can always find some way to turn the tide in his favor.

Hayabusa's neutral makes me LOL in this game because it's garbage. He has no tools to open you up and silly moves like WRK and 3H+K I believe they are that don't do much for him. 3H+K might be a decent whiff punisher though. He has negative on block guard breaks and no mixups. Legit his mixup is like Hayate's in that it comes from strike or throw only Hayate has a better time with it because he actually has good guard breaks. The one move Hayabusa has that I would kill for on Hayate is something similar to his 3PPP. A string of deep stunning tracking mids that have great delay which is something Hayate lacks. When Hayabusa gets a hit though he has the dream stun game. He has a sitdown stun that guarantees good stuff, a mid kick lift stun, a fast high launcher and stuns deep enough you can't SE to get out of shit so you have to hold. And when you have to take an izuna. There is no if and but about it you are a failure of a Hayabusa player if you can't land at least one izuna drop on Hi counter because that's the entire point of his stun game. All of this is backed by high damage output.

Let's also not forget the boost Hayabusa gets from the enviroment. Cliff Izuna, Ceiling Izuna, guaranteed critical burst setups (or maybe they arent but they put him at max threshold anyway) etc. its pretty grand.

Hayate on the whole is better but Hayabusa has some very solid strengths despite how flawed he is.

 

[Pictured Mind]

Lol Rachel only has two positive MUs? I wish I had the knowledge to write a full list of MUs. Guess I'll try to do a small bit this week.

 

[Brute]

@Tenryuga
That's a pretty good break-down, but I just want to point out a few things.

Hayabusa's "good guard breaks" are actually not as great as they're made out to be.

• 6KP is his best but it gets held 99% of the time against high-level players, and I'm not exaggerating that estimate. Without any sort of delay or mix-up from that telegraphed jump, it's not really a valid move in high-level play.
• The ongyoin 8P teleport punch is rarely landed on guard (again, high-level players know how to get around his teleport shenanigans). It's mainly used as a feint and if successful, lands on CH. The on block GB is rarely netted.
• The ongyoin 8K teleport kick I thought had it's GB removed, but I double-checked and it's actually still there. It's also one of those silly negative on block ones.
• KK was a neutral GB in vanilla, but it was removed and the move is now negative on block.
• 4PK and 3H+K are the most atrocious, obviously. Neither GB and both are horribly unsafe (and worse at connecting juggles now)
• 1KP only guard breaks on full charge, which I can tell you right now never happens. Ever.
• 1P+K is like 1KP, though occasionally you can land it on guard. Still, it's mostly a feint whiff punish.
• Ongyoin PPP/BT P+KPP can be landed on guard because it is delayable. However, the vast majority of the time high level players are holding it or interrupting it due to the telegraphed animation and lack of mixups.
• 44K is only +4 (nerfed from vanilla), which I would be thrilled about except I'm in ongyoin, so my fastest mid is 15 and high is 12 and low is 5 bajillion. This means that Sarah, for example, and use 6P and still beat out everything. Ducks under my high, attacks out of throw, beats out my low and ties with my fastest mid (that mid being one that allows for no follow-ups). Thus, dependent on my opponent, sometimes I'm forced to play defensively after this +on guard GB. The mandatory ongyoin transition really, really limits your options here.

I'll make an honorable mention to his other +on block (non-GB) moves.

• 33P4 is a stupid move that leaves him at +1 if you transition into ongoin. Again, that damn ongyoin transition, but unlike 66K this one provides a hefty pushback even on guard. The meta-game after landing this move on block is very, very strange. It's not like traditional frame advantage at all. That said, it does have its uses.
• WR4KP / 214P is +2 on guard. So again, Sarah's 6P can still tie with my fastest mid even if this is blocked. And this move is telegraphed as hell. Even when WR4K is landed on hit high level players will hold the following P 99% of the time. Very frustrating. Your only hope is to use the new hop as a mix-up and pray that your opponent lets their guard down. Otherwise, it can be equated to 6KP.

TLDR: Like you said, his neutral game is ass. Relies entirely on spacing, which is why characters who jack up his spacing give him lots of problems (such as Hayate).

 

[SilverForte]

Yeah, with hayabusa you really can't put on any pressure, you have to play very defensively up close, crushes, holds, throw punishment, etc. At least when you do get the opening he does a lot of damage.

 

[Brute]

Yeah, with hayabusa you really can't put on any pressure, you have to play very defensively up close, crushes, holds, throw punishment, etc. At least when you do get the opening he does a lot of damage.

His damage is actually less impressive than I originally thought it to be. Not because it's bad, but becuase I underestimated many other characters. Some like Ayane and Rig can match or beat him out on damage consistently and open people up much easier. Because fuck logic.