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Community The "Buff the Netcode" thread

Princess Kasumi

Princess Kasumi

Well-Known Member
They need to make exactly the same netcode on any consoles. Cause that would be really a dick of Team Ninja.

especially when the prices are similiar too. PLUS they're releasing another DOA game on PS3 & 360.
 
EMPEROR_COW

EMPEROR_COW

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
For the record.
I thought I should tell you guys that I spoke with Hayashi directly about the netcode issue.

He told me that they are indeed studying it..

When I brought up SCV and TTT2 netcodes he said that those games were intentionally designed with a lag from the get go. So that when online was coded it would seem lag free.

Given the system of DOA and the importance of a 0 frame (technically 1 frame) start up hold, this ofcourse is impossible as it would destroy the offline experience, something Shimbori stood strongly against.

I then brought up the SF4 and VF5FS netcodes and he said that his team are currently studying what those games (and others) did and the possibilities if implementing similar coding to DOA.

In the conversation he brought up the fact that with a good ping (5 blue bars) the game is very close to its offline counterpart.. This is true and I've experienced it first hand.

He did seem very keen on investigating this further n try and find a fix for those lesser connections at least if not for this game then for future games. I just thought I should let you guys know.
 
Goarmagon

Goarmagon

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
EMPEROR_COW said:
For the record.
I thought I should tell you guys that I spoke with Hayashi directly about the netcode issue.

He told me that they are indeed studying it..

When I brought up SCV and TTT2 netcodes he said that those games were intentionally designed with a lag from the get go. So that when online was coded it would seem lag free.

Given the system of DOA and the importance of a 0 frame (technically 1 frame) start up hold, this ofcourse is impossible as it would destroy the offline experience, something Shimbori stood strongly against.

I then brought up the SF4 and VF5FS netcodes and he said that his team are currently studying what those games (and others) did and the possibilities if implementing similar coding to DOA.

In the conversation he brought up the fact that with a good ping (5 blue bars) the game is very close to its offline counterpart.. This is true and I've experienced it first hand.

He did seem very keen on investigating this further n try and find a fix for those lesser connections at least if not for this game then for future games. I just thought I should let you guys know.
Click to expand...

I agree that a 5 bar unicorn is very good but when you get that unicorn you are subjected to random spikes from players in the lobbies. Speaking of which players with bad connections can join your lobby when they aren't supposed to, i.e. being a 2 bar connection when they lobby CLEARLY states that a 4+ bar is required to join. Fixing this will probably improve the netcode quite significantly right off the bat.

Other than that I meant what I said in the OP. If Last Round's netcode is garbage then I am taking my money and time elsewhere, There is too much competition for a game like this to have netcode like this. If you have a more direct line to them than we do than please communicate the urgency of this problem and make it known that frankly we are tired of being forced to use disingenuous play online.

EDIT: If you can speak to them directly then tell them about GGPO. Its not the be all end all but god is it better than what we have now.
 
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EMPEROR_COW

EMPEROR_COW

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
Goarmagon said:
I agree that a 5 bar unicorn is very good but when you get that unicorn you are subjected to random spikes from players in the lobbies. Speaking of which players with bad connections can join your lobby when they aren't supposed to, i.e. being a 2 bar connection when they lobby CLEARLY states that a 4+ bar is required to join. Fixing this will probably improve the netcode quite significantly right off the bat.

Other than that I meant what I said in the OP. If Last Round's netcode is garbage then I am taking my money and time elsewhere, There is too much competition for a game like this to have netcode like this. If you have a more direct line to them than we do than please communicate the urgency of this problem and make it known that frankly we are tired of being forced to use disingenuous play online.

EDIT: If you can speak to them directly then tell them about GGPO. Its not the be all end all but god is it better than what we have now.
Click to expand...

I think Katsushiro Harada said it best in a french interview a few years back ..
You guys look at GGPO as some sort of magic thing that can easily be implemented ...
first off ... it doesnt function as well on a 3D plane, as there are more factors that come to play ... now when you look at a game like DOA ... the stage involvement makes these things even more complex ... from angulations to activity of dangerzones.

2nd.. GGPO uses a sort of playback to correct itself in many instances when then netcode is down to shit ... imagine that in an already horrible match ... no thanks
 
Nereus

Nereus

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Standard Donor
deathofaninja said:
No offense to Virtua Fighter, but it's an old ugly game (I still think it's good), but DOA is just way bigger and way better looking. Something people are forgetting is that DOA5LR will be on ONE and PS4. It will probably still lag bad on 360 and PS3, but at least people that don't feel like upgrading can play it. That wouldn't have slid last time.
Click to expand...

I agree.. although the game is amazing.. the graphics are very outdated. Most of the characters look ok.. until you see Sarah lol. But the thing is, comparing VF5:FS to DOA5U in graphics is like comparing DOA4 to DOA5: Of course it looks better! DOA4 came out in like 2006 lol
 
Nereus

Nereus

Well-Known Member
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EMPEROR_COW said:
For the record.


In the conversation he brought up the fact that with a good ping (5 blue bars) the game is very close to its offline counterpart.. This is true and I've experienced it first hand.
Click to expand...

This is not true IMO. I've played Gurimmjaw and we have 5 full bars (blue). There's really no lag spikes at all, and it feels smooth.. but it's not. I still get beat out when he's like -12 etc. and this is not rare either. This may be true in Japan but i have yet to experience this.

FYE.. Gurimmjaw is from Ohio... im from Kentucky. We're barely far apart.
 
L

lizardmech

Member
Is it really possible to improve it? You can either have both clients synced and not making assumptions about possible inputs or you can create a convoluted netcode that will degrade the competitive nature of the game, there's not much middle ground.

I would suggest trying to increase online participation amongst players and making it more appealing for players in similar locations to play each other. DoA and console games in general have very poor matchmaking options. For big console games such as CoD they get away with it due to the sheer size of the playerbase but anything remotely niche the playerbase collapses a few weeks after launch. I play a lot of obscure games on PC as well as DoA5, even with much lower sales than something like DoA5 the online playerbase appears to be much larger and more likely to keep playing due to it being easy for players to form groups and ways for them to play such as ladders with ELO rankings.

There's also quite a few minor things in DoA5U multiplayer specifically that potentially scare off a lot of players. For instance the automatch being tied to ranked may not be such a good idea due to the effects of ladder stress causing people to play less. Secondly the structure of ranked is quite exploitable as grinding away fighting lower ranked players is the most effective to get points. You have lot's of the playerbase canceling matches because they don't want to fight people on a level similar to themselves.

Then I have some issues due to living in Australia and the lobby structure. In plain DoA5 I could join japanese lobbies that had moderate connection requirements, then in DoA5U they dramatically increased how strict the game is in reporting latencies as bars which is preventing people in south east asia, japan and australia playing each other. This is then compounded by Australing being labled other in region, So I can't turn off the flawed latency system and create south east asia lobby.
 
oMASTER LEGENDo

oMASTER LEGENDo

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Don't you hate when your in rank match and the connection turns out to be false not trying to insult players but this is an example of false connection reads fix this team ninja.
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Awesmic

Awesmic

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Standard Donor
I'm all for buffing the netcode, just as long as trash talkers and stream monsters get nerfed.
 
just_me

just_me

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EMPEROR_COW said:
When I brought up SCV and TTT2 netcodes he said that those games were intentionally designed with a lag from the get go. So that when online was coded it would seem lag free.
Click to expand...

How does he know? And what does that mean exactly? The games have unusually high input lag offline, or something?

Also can someone explain how GGPO works in a few simple sentences?
From what I remember it's something like this:
Both clients run a match locally, only receiving input information from each other. A third party compares state information and the game state on both clients is rolled back to the last stable state, if there is a conflict.

That sounds like a good idea if there is little state information and the connection is actually good (so even if p2 excecutes something 1 frame later on client 1 than 2, it does not affect the overall state on both clients)
But I always fail to see how poor connections do not become a massive "rollback fest"

I agree that a 5 bar in game connection is pretty close to offline... but I've only had 5 bars with a single person... I'm always joking that this person must live in the same street I do... since I have 3-4bar connections with people living less than 50km away.

My guess on how the game previews connection quality:
Looks like the game does not actually establish a player-to-player connection and evaluates that connection (you know like sending each other a ping e.g. I'm doing ping yourIP ), but rather takes the mean of the connections to the server.
 
oMASTER LEGENDo

oMASTER LEGENDo

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
just_me said:
How does he know? And what does that mean exactly? The games have unusually high input lag offline, or something?

Also can someone explain how GGPO works in a few simple sentences?
From what I remember it's something like this:
Both clients run a match locally, only receiving input information from each other. A third party compares state information and the game state on both clients is rolled back to the last stable state, if there is a conflict.

That sounds like a good idea if there is little state information and the connection is actually good (so even if p2 excecutes something 1 frame later on client 1 than 2, it does not affect the overall state on both clients)
But I always fail to see how poor connections do not become a massive "rollback fest"

I agree that a 5 bar in game connection is pretty close to offline... but I've only had 5 bars with a single person... I'm always joking that this person must live in the same street I do... since I have 3-4bar connections with people living less than 50km away.

My guess on how the game previews connection quality:
Looks like the game does not actually establish a player-to-player connection and evaluates that connection (you know like sending each other a ping e.g. I'm doing ping yourIP ), but rather takes the mean of the connections to the server.
Click to expand...

Using a netcode technique called "rollback," GGPO puts lag ahead of a player's move which partially hides latency and creates a lagless illusion. The effects examine which players performed the right actions and correct any possible inaccuracies. The program itself can allow players to adjust latency in case of high ping situations; either creating a possibly jerky yet accurate representation or a smoother game with input delay. also heres more info as well http://skullgirls.com/2011/09/skullgirls-ggpo-and-you/
 
L

lizardmech

Member
just_me said:
I agree that a 5 bar in game connection is pretty close to offline... but I've only had 5 bars with a single person... I'm always joking that this person must live in the same street I do... since I have 3-4bar connections with people living less than 50km away.

My guess on how the game previews connection quality:
Looks like the game does not actually establish a player-to-player connection and evaluates that connection (you know like sending each other a ping e.g. I'm doing ping yourIP ), but rather takes the mean of the connections to the server.
Click to expand...
It would depend on each persons home network as well, being close won't help much if one person is using wifi with an old router and is dropping packets. You also have issues with routing between ISPs being unpredictable, if you run a traceroute between two residential internet connections you will often find the path is far from optimized.
 
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