DOA6 Story Discussion

[DestructionBomb]

DOA6 story was definitely pretty bad yeah. Then again, DOA story in general was never the greatest. Since it's a fighting game, it was kinda expected (least for DOA mostly).

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

This is the second time you've made this argument, that I "put words in your mouth." Only I don't. I use figurative hyperbole to illustrate why I don't find a particular line of reasoning to be compelling or persuasive. In that case, my point was that subjectivity is a constant in matters such as these so it's not a valid excuse to justify any form of criticism. As such, it's an irrelevant point. You can defend the subjective merit of things, but if that defense doesn't involve any compelling points, doubling down on "it's subjective; everyone can have their own opinion" essentially translates into "You're allowed to keep positing your point of view, just like everyone else," which I do. But then you continue to hammer in this subjectivity point, as if I haven't already acknowledged it. To be perfectly clear: I get it. I just don't care.

Then that's fine by me as the only thing I'm even discussing in this situation is the pretense that you could be making it objective rather than subjective. I'm otherwise not trying to use it to take away your criticism or to justify the issues with story mode.
And yes, you are right in the sense that I'm not throwing out the best compelling evidence and give off that I'm doubling down... but that's kinda the point that you illustrated yourself: This really isn't the situation where I'm supposed to make you care, I'm not trying to change your mind Brute or trying to make you refute your words, not in the slightest.

But I'm not "hating the criticizing the characterization." Quite the opposite.
You're not stopping me from doing anything. You are continually addressing a bunch of flimsy nonsense, however, so I am going to criticize that.
As for whether I'm criticizing YOU or your positions, it's the latter. But if you say "It's delusional to think that the Earth is flat," you can bet that flat-earthers will take it personally, anyway.

Yes it's as you say that I'm addressing the "flimsy nonsense" of the Story Mode and you have the ability to criticize me of addressing it. But that still leaves the fact that I will also argue back myself. It's just my nature to do that sort of thing.

Exactly. People can win or lose with no real reason behind it. Kinda sounds like shitty writing, doesn't it?
So this shitty writing is allegedly the reason that Leon can't come back. But, by it's own asinine logic, Leon can easily be worked back in with the same degree of lazy-ass writing they've committed to for a lot of the characters who did make it. But arbitrarily, he's not here.
It's almost as if their excuse is illegitimate.

Except that right there falls into it's own hole of logic though: If the logic itself is so asinine, why even include Leon back when you can just add in even more characters instead to further patch up the holes? Why specifically is Leon the one that can be added back in? Why not Bankotsubo since he is one of the strongest characters in DOA? Bad story telling or not doesn't suddenly mean you can just start throwing shit at the walls and hope something sticks, we already have that in MKX with suddenly because of Arcade Endings saying so, Johnny and Cassie Cage can now fight and beat Gods higher on the totem pole than the lesser Gods.

You admit that in a character's arc that is solely focused on the strength of the characters that "damn near every character can win or lose fights with no real reason or logic behind it." You can have a decent story with inconsistent fight results, but not if that story is focused solely on fighting strength (as Jann's is). As a result: Jann's story is shit. It was written by someone who has an incredibly terrible understanding of writing, or someone so lazy that they simply didn't give a shit. Those are the two options. And yet, allegedly, that quality of writing is what prohibited Leon. And that is fucking stupid.

And you aren't wrong about that, but again, you are acting as if LEON is the only person who would fill that niche. I could very well put in Gen Fu instead, or Bankotsubo or even make it Ryu Hayabusa again like it was for DOA2-3 or are you going to tell me that Lauren knew that Leon > Ryu this whole time? There has to be a line in the sand somewhere, shit story telling or problems aside.
Now honestly tell me something: Why is LEON the most suitable character in this? Why can't they create someone who really is the "Strongest in the World" to do the same thing? Why can't they use Gen Fu instead? Or use another character to work with Jann like Ryu? You wanted to bring it up so now I'm asking you in the terms of a writer, plain and simple.

 

[Brute]

Except that right there falls into it's own hole of logic though: If the logic itself is so asinine, why even include Leon back when you can just add in even more characters instead to further patch up the holes? Why specifically is Leon the one that can be added back in?

He's not the only one that can be added in. He's just the one I give a shit about.
Don't you even fucking say the "s" word. We've been over that.

You can make compelling arguments for other characters. People haven't been doing it, but it can be done. I'm just not doing it currently.
I only have so much time and wit.

And you aren't wrong about that, but again, you are acting as if LEON is the only person who would fill that niche. I could very well put in Gen Fu instead, or Bankotsubo or even make it Ryu Hayabusa again like it was for DOA2-3 or are you going to tell me that Lauren knew that Leon > Ryu this whole time? There has to be a line in the sand somewhere, shit story telling or problems aside.
Now honestly tell me something: Why is LEON the most suitable character in this? Why can't they create someone who really is the "Strongest in the World" to do the same thing? Why can't they use Gen Fu instead? Or use another character to work with Jann like Ryu? You wanted to bring it up so now I'm asking you in the terms of a writer, plain and simple.

Well, you're defaulting back to story justifications, which I've repeatedly stated are a terrible modus operandi here.

But, let's be charitable.

First, why am I more annoyed with Leon's absence than other characters'? The mother-fucker could chuck a bitch into environmental hazards, which are a prominent staple of DOA's gameplay identity. That's a big fucking deal, and he was the only dude who could do it. Gameplay-wise, Gen Fu is somewhat represented with Eliot. Ein is somewhat represented with Hitomi. Bankotsubo is hella-represented by Nyotengu. Nobody is flinging assholes in whatever direction they damn well please. He had a really cool, idiosyncratic function and they dropped it for no good reason.

Second, why can't they give Leon's gameplay quirks to someone else? They can, it just doesn't really make any sense to. They've stated that they were working on a budget and obviously on a deadline, so resources were limited. Luckily, Leon is mostly read-to-go. With most of their roster barely elevated from a simple copy-paste of their DOA5 iterations and models, bringing Leon back would be the simplest solution to get his cool-ass playstyle back.

Could they give his playstyle to another (new) character? Yes. But.. why? You could only gain two things from doing that:
1) Better visual appearance. Our latest two entries in this respect are fucking Nico and Diego, so I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on creating new visual designs because they'll probably suck ass.
2) "The Story." Which, again, I feel they can't do competently regardless, so why bother?

Now, if you really, really want the lazy way out, you could just give certain qualities like his aerial redirect to another existing character, except:
1) They didn't
2) It's kind of ill-advised as it would either be too strong for existing characters given their current toolsets or wouldn't resonate with their general toolkit philosophy. The closest match would probably be Raidou but they'd have to nerf the shit out of his other tools to justify giving him such an option.

My issue is not: "Leon absolutely had to return!"
My argument is: "Why didn't he return?"
TN's response is: "Illogical bullshit that makes no sense."

 

[Xhominid The Demon Within]

He's not the only one that can be added in. He's just the one I give a shit about.
Don't you even fucking say the "s" word. We've been over that.

You can make compelling arguments for other characters. People haven't been doing it, but it can be done. I'm just not doing it currently.
I only have so much time and wit.

I'll only do it when it applicable chief.
And I got the time to wait until you want to do so.

Well, you're defaulting back to story justifications, which I've repeatedly stated are a terrible modus operandi here.

I honestly want to say something witty atleast for myself, but I won't. And it's better for me to get what you are going with before I go further:
So I'm going to be that guy instead and I'm go through it all, bit by bit:

First, why am I more annoyed with Leon's absence than other characters'? The mother-fucker could chuck a bitch into environmental hazards, which are a prominent staple of DOA's gameplay identity. That's a big fucking deal, and he was the only dude who could do it. Gameplay-wise, Gen Fu is somewhat represented with Eliot. Ein is somewhat represented with Hitomi. Bankotsubo is hella-represented by Nyotengu. Nobody is flinging assholes in whatever direction they damn well please. He had a really cool, idiosyncratic function and they dropped it for no good reason.

I will honestly give you this. You are 100% right in that there is no character like Leon who has a grab move that specifically aims for Danger Zones for maximum damage and other nifty things.

Second, why can't they give Leon's gameplay quirks to someone else? They can, it just doesn't really make any sense to. They've stated that they were working on a budget and obviously on a deadline, so resources were limited. Luckily, Leon is mostly read-to-go. With most of their roster barely elevated from a simple copy-paste of their DOA5 iterations and models, bringing Leon back would be the simplest solution to get his cool-ass playstyle back.

I... would actually refute this by going to someone you pointed out:
Eliot. Eliot gained a whole new stance based on Gen Fu's moves(not all of his moves but a good chunk), it was actually VERY possible for TN to port Leon's moves and never bring him in at all... but at the same time, they ARE open to bringing Gen Fu back so it really depends on how you see the outcome of it all.

Could they give his playstyle to another (new) character? Yes. But.. why? You could only gain two things from doing that:
1) Better visual appearance. Our latest two entries in this respect are fucking Nico and Diego, so I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on creating new visual designs because they'll probably suck ass.
2) "The Story." Which, again, I feel they can't do competently regardless, so why bother?

You are seriously making this harder for me to not use that word. So instead I'm going to say it in a round-a-bout way:
"Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder". Because when you get down to brass tacks, that's what Option 1 is virtually in every single respect to every single DOA character, whether it's the newbies or the originals.

And for the 2nd point, you finally mentioned the Story for once... which was the ideal thing I was actually responding towards but I digress.
But basically, you say that you ultimately won't take a new character taking Leon's moves because... you just wouldn't like it. Biggest takeaway I got from this.

Now, if you really, really want the lazy way out, you could just give certain qualities like his aerial redirect to another existing character, except:
1) They didn't
2) It's kind of ill-advised as it would either be too strong for existing characters given their current toolsets or wouldn't resonate with their general toolkit philosophy. The closest match would probably be Raidou but they'd have to nerf the shit out of his other tools to justify giving him such an option.

I don't know, I think Matt would love another buff to Bass with that aerial redirect...

My issue is not: "Leon absolutely had to return!"
My argument is: "Why didn't he return?"
TN's response is: "Illogical bullshit that makes no sense."

Except that's kinda the main takeaway from this: It doesn't make sense from your perspective.
I can honestly throw in reasoning, I can say other games usually did the same thing with having characters that was predominantly based on the story mode itself with only like 1-2 not being so and that's due to Pre-Order DLC and crap and so on and so forth.

But that is the ultimate take away from all of this and for that... you aren't wrong.
They could have added Leon since the characters are predominantly based on DOA5 with only being tweaked for the mechanics at hand... but you also agree that they was on a tight budget and tight deadline, so how would they have fit Leon in this game anyway if that's the case? I mean look at what we have now and tell me if they really had the ability to add in Leon at any point without the chance of him being fucked on some level? Now you can say what I'm going with is just what if's... but isn't that what this ultimately is?
I'm not really much of a fan to continue going on this "What If Crusade" and I know you aren't either so I'll just end my point like this:

You have a point that they could have added Leon but didn't do so because of... how you say "Illogical Bullshit that makes no sense" but the point also comes into play in that:
What if they ultimately didn't just add Leon simply because they couldn't or he wasn't the immediate priority compared to everyone else?

 

[Brute]

I... would actually refute this by going to someone you pointed out:
Eliot. Eliot gained a whole new stance based on Gen Fu's moves(not all of his moves but a good chunk), it was actually VERY possible for TN to port Leon's moves and never bring him in at all...

1) They didn't
2) It's kind of ill-advised as it would either be too strong for existing characters given their current toolsets or wouldn't resonate with their general toolkit philosophy. The closest match would probably be Raidou but they'd have to nerf the shit out of his other tools to justify giving him such an option.

Giving Eliot some of Gen's tools doesn't push him into an imblanced state and it doesn't directly conflict with his design philosophy. Honestly, I still think it was done in a rather clumsy fashion, but it's not as egregious as, say, giving a directional air throw to Bayman or Mila would be.

I don't know, I think Matt would love another buff to Bass with that aerial redirect...

Then Matt would be dumb.

You are seriously making this harder for me to not use that word. So instead I'm going to say it in a round-a-bout way:
"Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder". Because when you get down to brass tacks, that's what Option 1 is virtually in every single respect to every single DOA character, whether it's the newbies or the originals.

I think this highlights a point of confusion. I didn't assert that Nico and Diego's visual designs are objectively bad. For now, my criticism of those two has been limited to a subjective level. Now, I did imply that their story/writing is objectively bad, on account of accusing the general writing of being objectively bad, and I'll stand behind that.
For the record, I do consider lazy plagiarism to be generally bad form for visual design. Copying Marie's face with painfully limited alterations or straight-up copying Travis Touchdown is not going to impress me much. Not interested in getting into a detailed breakdown of why I think these characters' designs suck ATM. I'll save that for another time.

But basically, you say that you ultimately won't take a new character taking Leon's moves because... you just wouldn't like it. Biggest takeaway I got from this.

I never said that. You are now putting words in my mouth. The irony.
To reiterate, I said "I don't see the point" in doing that, not "I wouldn't like it." Hypothetically speaking they could make a new character that had an awesome design and good writing that was a spiritual successor to Leon and adopted his gameplan and the notable bits of his moveset and I'd be on board. I just perceive that outcome as being less likely than simply making Leon return in functional and serviceable form.

I can honestly throw in reasoning,

I'm skeptical.

I can say other games usually did the same thing

I find I have to repeat this a lot: "Other things sucking worse is not an excuse to suck."
I usually present it more fancifully, but I think you get the point.

how would they have fit Leon in this game anyway if that's the case?
[...]
What if they ultimately didn't just add Leon simply because they couldn't or he wasn't the immediate priority compared to everyone else

They poured a bunch of time and resources into a half-assed customization mode that in some notable places falls short of what could be done in the previous installment. It's a goddamn fighting game in 2019 without online lobbies, but I'm supposed to be grateful because instead I get a lackluster story mode and Quest Mode that are both done with in a few hours' time? Meanwhile, they axed some of the best characters at their disposal but somehow managed to include Phase 4, who doesn't even do anything notable in the dumb story they were so focused on.

So yes. They simply didn't prioritize him. Broadly, their priorities sucked. That's been my point from the beginning.

 

[P2p1mbs]

Seeing how often its mentioned at this point, this thread should be renamed from "DOA6 Story Discussion" to "Bring Leon back".

As I already said before, I am sure he will return as a playable character but highly doubt he will have any further story involvement but will be indifferent if he does.

 

[U_C_A_F]

No one gives a shit about him being a part of the awful story, what brute is saying is that the fact that TN is using story relevance as reason to add or cut characters is idiotic and as DOA6's story has shown damn near every character has little to no relevance even friggin Busa and Kasumi don't do shit of worth... much less the entire waste of Phase 4 who is a literal Kasumi clone outprioritzing Leon who is far more unique from Bayman in personality, design, and moveset than Phase 4 is from Kasumi and yet she gets a base roster slot due to her one story scene of her cannon fodder clones getting owned by busa.

If thats the extremely low bar of relevance required to be a part of the story then they could've easily shoehorned a scene of Leon skinny dipping in an oasis in the desert which has as much relevance as any of the other dumbshit that went on in the story..BAM Leon back in the base roster!

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

*Changing topic*

Are people satisfied that Hayate's role evolved a bit, making him closer to a leader ? Like, he was the default fighter at the end ? Thanks Team Ninja!

Spoiler

Now, can't he just die so Ein can come back?

 

[Brute]

Didn't make any difference to me. I picked Ayane.

 

[KwonJigglypuff]

Didn't make any difference to me. I picked Ayane.

I took too much time to pick so it was Hayate by default for me... But I was please because it makes sense. I don't particularly love him, but he deserved that ending.

 

[zoo]

I picked Kasumi just to give her something to do in the story

 

[werewolfgold]

Replayed the scene 3 times. GET ON MY LEVEL. lol

 

[Mayor-Of-Mustard]

I picked Hayate out of pure panic, thinking it was a quick time event for whatever dumb reason.

 

[JAG THE GEMINI]

Didn't make any difference to me. I picked Ayane.

Same

 

[Leifang]

I don’t think a lot of people are aware of that Mai Shiranui and Kula Diamond has a clip in Story Mode. Here’s my video and gameplay of it.

 

[KasumiLover]

I don’t think a lot of people are aware of that Mai Shiranui and Kula Diamond has a clip in Story Mode. Here’s my video and gameplay of it.

I didn't care much for Kula and Nico's story scenes but I did like how Mai and Kasumi seemed to have a nice friendly chemistry with each other xD it makes me happy when anyone is being nice to Kasumi tho tbh

 

[Leifang]

I didn't care much for Kula and Nico's story scenes but I did like how Mai and Kasumi seemed to have a nice friendly chemistry with each other xD it makes me happy when anyone is being nice to Kasumi tho tbh

I felt the same, Mai was neat. Kula in the other hand was stupid lol.

 

[Addictrian]

Well the Scenes are nice but JUst one Fight . A little bit too less for my Taste.

Wish there would be more interactions and Cut Scenes plus Endings in Arcade Mode like in past Doa Games . Wishful thinking i guess

 

[deathofaninja]

Thought I would bring this interesting story thread back up. Not a lot of people are into DOA6s story, but I am somehow and I wasn't too shocked that people had little to say about Kula and Mai's cut scenes, but it is cool to me that the story continues in someway as new characters are released. I found an analysis on their brief story moments by @otnesse that I enjoyed reading in a Gamefaqs topic:

Well, Mai Shiranui and Kula Diamond as of last night have debuted, so I'm going to cover some stuff about them, namely stories since, yes, they do indeed have DLC chapters, or at least a DLC mission each. Both chapters occur during the Prologue section.

First, we cover Mai's chapter, which presumably occurs before Kasumi is ambushed by Phase 4 clones. Her chapter is called "Deadly Autumn Dance", and the summary is listed as the following:

All ninja clans follow refined techniques at the highest levels, and protect their secrets with iron devotion. Mai Shiranui, a Shiranui-style ninjutsu teacher, is again ready to use her techniques against the Mugen Tenshin clan!

The summary seems to imply that this won't be the first time Mai Shiranui has fought a member of the Mugen Tenshin clan, whether it be Kasumi or anyone else.

Anyways, for the actual chapter, Kasumi is sitting at Miyabi enjoying the scenery. She then senses something amiss and turns just in time to see a paper fan headed in her direction. Luckily, she stands up and teleports out of the way just in time and moves to another location. Mai then lands a few feet behind her, and asks if she's the strongest Kunoichi in the area. Kasumi, barely turning to look back, acknowledges Mai's presence in a way that indicated she was familiar with her ("You are here."). Mai notices the Mugen Tenshin logo on Kasumi's outfit, and, upon deducing what the logo stands for, guesses that Kasumi's a smart individual before challenging her to a friendly spar to see who is the best one in Japan. You then fight as Mai, and need to beat Kasumi. After the fight, they're sitting together on the bench and chatting it up, and Mai admits that exercise tends to make her hungry.

Next up is Kula Diamond's chapter. This one is called "The Secret Project", and the summary is as follows:

NESTS: a secret association in possession of many advanced technologies, including a cloning project. NiCO has succeeded in discovering its existence in another dimension using a quantum computer developed by her, and is about to test a subspace portal...

From what's gathered, Kula is similar to Nicole and Naotora Ii before her in that she doesn't actually hail from the same present world as them, only unlike them, she hails from an entirely separate dimension from the world of Dead or Alive, and it's also implied that NESTS is MIST's alternate counterpart. This may also imply that NiCO was also responsible for Naotora Ii's presence in Last Round.

It begins just where the narration trailed off. NiCO is seen inputting some commands into a computer's holographic interface, and then turns around just as sparks emerge from the ground, and cause a field of water to appear enveloping a blue haired girl, Kula Diamond. The field then dissipates, with her slightly hunched down, implying she was unconscious when it happened. As NiCO approaches her, Kula then comes to and, understandably, panics and wonders where she is. NiCO then tells her she had waited for this moment, referencing the experiment into time-space warping. Kula then asks who NiCO is, and then stands up defensively and demands to know if she's with NESTS. NiCO, charging her shock gloves, then tells her that such is irrelevant. Kula then asks if NiCO intends to challenge her to a fight. She then hesitantly accepts, but then warns her that she not blame her if she loses. You then fight as Kula against NiCO. After the fight, Kula has a lollipop and asks "For me?", implying that NiCO was the one who gave it to her. NiCO then while walking away tells her that Kula gave her interesting data (presumably relating to time warp). As Kula is dancing around with joy at the lollipop, NiCO, while facing away from Kula, adjusts her glasses and sternly tells her not to tell anyone.

 

[otnesse]

Thought I would bring this interesting story thread back up. Not a lot of people are into DOA6s story, but I am somehow and I wasn't too shocked that people had little to say about Kula and Mai's cut scenes, but it is cool to me that the story continues in someway as new characters are released. I found an analysis on their brief story moments by @otnesse that I enjoyed reading in a Gamefaqs topic:

I see you read my GameFAQs topic. I mostly created it because, hey, someone had to create it, especially when they were actually given story mode chapters (which is far more than what the DLC/add-on characters for DOA5 got, which with the exception of Phase 4 was none).