DOA5 and Sexualization: Too Much?

[Jyakotu]

However, I wonder how it'd affect DOA's reputation... I'm not sure if it'd make things better, but at least we wouldn't have gravures in DOA6 (maybe).

DOA's reputation is already "ruined" due to bikini DLC, gravures, and women with busty busts. People can't seem to get past the fact that the women are sexy and fight in costumes that are selling a fantasy. Every fighting game has female characters that does this. Chun-Li's dress makes sure to show off her thighs, Cammy's leotard shows off those legs and ass, Anna Williams has no problem shaking her bust, etc., etc. I think the big issue is why does DOA get all this flack when other fighting games have fan service. If anything, people should be impressed that DOA is not holding back on its sex appeal, because that's been a selling point since the first game. DOA stays true to itself, no matter what the haters say. At the end of the day, it's a fighting game first and people can make it as sexy or as tame as they want.

 

[The Juggernaut]

DOA's reputation is already "ruined" due to bikini DLC, gravures, and women with busty busts. People can't seem to get past the fact that the women are sexy and fight in costumes that are selling a fantasy. Every fighting game has female characters that does this. Chun-Li's dress makes sure to show off her thighs, Cammy's leotard shows off those legs and ass, Anna Williams has no problem shaking her bust, etc., etc. I think the big issue is why does DOA get all this flack when other fighting games have fan service. If anything, people should be impressed that DOA is not holding back on its sex appeal, because that's been a selling point since the first game. DOA stays true to itself, no matter what the haters say. At the end of the day, it's a fighting game first and people can make it as sexy or as tame as they want.

But its not a fighting game first...

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

DOA's reputation is already "ruined" due to bikini DLC, gravures, and women with busty busts. People can't seem to get past the fact that the women are sexy and fight in costumes that are selling a fantasy. Every fighting game has female characters that does this. Chun-Li's dress makes sure to show off her thighs, Cammy's leotard shows off those legs and ass, Anna Williams has no problem shaking her bust, etc., etc. I think the big issue is why does DOA get all this flack when other fighting games have fan service. If anything, people should be impressed that DOA is not holding back on its sex appeal, because that's been a selling point since the first game. DOA stays true to itself, no matter what the haters say. At the end of the day, it's a fighting game first and people can make it as sexy or as tame as they want.

Your not going to find people impressed in the FGC with sex appeal only with combos and talent During tournaments. The FGC in general can't handle anything sex related in a mature way. Now the Fan-base for example is fine with the sex appeal and we have a lot of those but for our game to succeeded they need to come offline.I understand that all other fighting games have some sort of sex appeal but you can't compare how a little Chinese dress showing a little bit of skin to a whole roster of characters show nothing but skin and G strings which apparently is a costume.

 

[werewolfgold]

DOA and sexy go hand in hand, so what's wrong with the DOA girls having their fun on Zack Island?

Because the concept in itself is so out of left field and blatant in its pandering that it's almost facepalm worthy. Trained ninjas and assassins and the like all have a beach volleyball vacation getaway every once in a while for teh lulz? And everybody's exchanging gifts and stuff? That's goofy even by anime standards. lol (Yes, I know that the concept is not monopolized by DOA or anything.) You got tricked by Zack once? Okay, maybe. Let's make this a regular thing? Pfffft.

It's kind of like Tekken Ball versus Tekken Bowl. A game where you use the fighting game engine to smack a ball back and forth? OK. Sounds interesting. Everybody just goes out bowling? Uhhh, cool, I guess. But, there's that extra "huh?" factor. It seems out of place. I'd almost say the same thing about Puzzle Fighter. But, at least in that game, you dropping blocks translates to the characters attacking and doing special moves on each other.

DOA's reputation is already "ruined" due to bikini DLC, gravures, and women with busty busts. People can't seem to get past the fact that the women are sexy and fight in costumes that are selling a fantasy. Every fighting game has female characters that does this. Chun-Li's dress makes sure to show off her thighs, Cammy's leotard shows off those legs and ass, Anna Williams has no problem shaking her bust, etc., etc. I think the big issue is why does DOA get all this flack when other fighting games have fan service.

I think that what a lot of it comes down to is how congruous or incongruous things are toward the general idea of a fighting game atmosphere. It has to make sense within itself. It's also why people are annoyed with Tekken by giving everyone customizable fairy wings, having people throwing cake in other's faces, and magic wands that turn your opponent into a cat person. It screws with the atmosphere.

If you have a few sexpots in your game, whatever. As long as there is a decent character variety across the board. In life, some people are going to be sexy, some aren't. But, If you're trying to market your fighting game on T and A, encouraging people to look at the sexy ladies while they lounge on the beach, and then take creep shots while they're vulnerable, it starts to bring into question whether you should be making a fighting game in the first place. Yeah, it's "fantasy", but there are still levels to suspension of disbelief. There's a difference between having a design like Juri Han, and deciding that she's now going to be a nurse, a maid, a cheerleader, a playboy bunny, etc.

If anything, people should be impressed that DOA is not holding back on its sex appeal, because that's been a selling point since the first game. DOA stays true to itself, no matter what the haters say. At the end of the day, it's a fighting game first and people can make it as sexy or as tame as they want.

But, that's the problem (as you may be able to see). A significant portion of people don't think it's a fighting game first. Some people see the point of DOA as being T and A. So, the path forward is dependent upon whether it is or not. Why can't they have it both ways? It's hard because you're trying to marry things together that don't usually make sense. Even for a game like MK, killing off your opponent could just be seen as an extension of battle to begin with. It's taken to ridiculous levels, but the concept in itself isn't that farfetched.

 

[Jyakotu]

It just sucks that DOA can't be what it is. Itagaki took inspiration from games considered more "serious" at the time, such as Fatal Fury and even Mortal Kombat. Unless people lived under a rock, they know Dead or Alive was a fighting game first. They know the only reason the Xtreme series even happened was because they liked the breast physics and sex appeal of the females. But honestly, it is what it is at this point. Outsiders will have their opinion and they will talk, but I'll still keep playing. America seems so conservative when it comes to sex, but sexualization is all around us in various forms of media. Giving a game flack for its sex appeal, which has been a staple since the first game, is absurd. And let's remember, video games sell us a fantasy. This game is a fantasy. Unless you're cosplaying daily, no woman would wear majority of the costumes the DOA ladies wear. This brings up this whole other discussion how men want women to be sexy, but they can't be TOO sexy or be proud to show off their sexiness. But like I said, that's a discussion for another time.

 

[Hayabusiness]

A significant portion of people don't think it's a fighting game first.

LOL, my friend thought it was a beachvolley game, and if I weren't there to remind her about the story and the characters all she'd care about is the jiggly breasts and shun it off as a perv game.
SERIOUSLY.

America seems so conservative when it comes to sex, but sexualization is all around us in various forms of media. Giving a game flack for its sex appeal, which has been a staple since the first game, is absurd. And let's remember, video games sell us a fantasy. This game is a fantasy.

America, America... it's always America, yet DOA has many fans in Europe and mainly Asia as far as I know.
You people make it sound this is mainly about your conservative culture; for example, it's similar to ours (Italian culture) in that regard, but I'm sure, say, France or Japan, live this very differently, ESPECIALLY JAPAN, which should be a point of view to not overlook in this discussion...

I'm not sure non-japanese people who criticize and rant about DOA hate sex appeal. I mean, no fighting game fan has problems with Morrigan, and Rainbow Mika, and Mai Shiranui, and Juri Han, no?

I think they have problems when the sexualization SEEMS the main point of the game, and thus spit in DOA's face and reputation, and Team Ninja doesn't do a thing to remove this stigma. People see DOA as what they think it is (shallow titty game that also features holds that block muh preshus combos) also because you just keep on having the fanservice shoved in your face in promotional material and costant DLC.
An abdundance of sex is seen as juvenile, or simply as a cheap way to get attention with no effort (you all said it, sex sells, no?), and thus what are the chances for DOA to be taken seriously by the average fighting game fan?

AND, as I said, TN is doing nothing on the aesthethic side to promote this game as a legit fighting game with a tad more sexiness. It seems like they are promoting a softcore sexy gal game. Seriously! Most of the DLC themed outfits are popular outfits seen in Japanese softcore and hardcore pornography, and are everywhere in H games.
Other fighting games keep these things to a minimum compared to DOA, and thus gain more respect. These fighting games also put more care and give more importance to that part of the cast that is either less sexualized or has a penis. Nobody knows DOA's male cast, and DOA has no series poster man, for example, and I think these two factors are important for fighting game fans.
If we want DOA to be taken more seriously, they need to show and prove they actually care about the rest of the game, not just the sexiness (I'm not implying they don't care about the gameplay though!).

We DOA fans already know that DOA is a great 3D fighting game with fun mind games, but the how can the outside understand this if you show Nyotengu's tits on the preview instead? How can they take DOA seriously with a bajillion sexy DLC packs flocking into their e-shops? (Wasn't there someone who protested about this in a mag?)
And people who make videos and other content don't help, because almost all of DOA's video previews and say... articles, etc, (Things not made by TN) that float around the web feature eye-catching sexy pictures of the girls, no matter if in a bikini or in a pose that might remind you of sex.
No, I'm not talking about Ryona videos (those videos need to have sexy previews!) or sexy articles, I'm talking about anything else: online battles, story cutscenes, et cetera. They all feature saucy pics to get them clicks. Everyone is gonna get wrong ideas here.

THIS is the main issue:
How can DOA be taken seriously by if its only way to catch an eye is shallow, softcore porno-like sex?

I have a feeling that if the sexy outfits were kept in DOAX... maybe we would have less naysayers around us, and nobody would have to lose something they like.
I am not against people who like the sexy outfits (yes... even if they like ugly copypastas... besides I love sexy outfits myself), and I don't want to sound like I hate them or think they're the problem
I do have conflicts about this issue, and the only one who can fix it is TN, not the fans.

But, onto something that matters more:

I said this before... but:

You and me, American and Italian, might see DOA has a different fighting game that has no qualms about sex appeal, but how is it seen in Japan??
What might seem sexual liberation, freedom, and an open-mind towards the subject to us, in Japan, it's just a thing like another, just another softcore eroge with many beautiful girls to peep.
It's something that is all over their lives. Other than being hypocrites (because being openly perverted IIRC is something to be ashamed of, and they do shame otaku), they consume things like these on a daily basis, and Japanese entertainment is now ridden with it. You can't turn around without seing a lolicon or a busty innocent girl.
Things like the shower of shallow DLC we've got are part of a bigger picture that can't be just be described as "We Americans are prudes and conservatives, wah!".

 

[Jyakotu]

People act as if DOA5 didn't try to get rid of the stigma in the beginning. If everyone remembers, DOA5 was going to be the game that was supposed to be taken more seriously. Why do you think the game has a darker, grungier feel to it? Even in the reveal trailer of vanilla, the game showed off fighting instead of sexy. Even when DOA5 tried to be more serious, people still disregarded the series. So Team Ninja was like fuck it and decided to just embrace the sex appeal of DOA. Sure, people have opinions, but DOA has been getting a lot more attention than it ever did.

 

[Hayabusiness]

People act as if DOA5 didn't try to get rid of the stigma in the beginning. If everyone remembers, DOA5 was going to be the game that was supposed to be taken more seriously. Why do you think the game has a darker, grungier feel to it? Even in the reveal trailer of vanilla, the game showed off fighting instead of sexy. Even when DOA5 tried to be more serious, people still disregarded the series. So Team Ninja was like fuck it and decided to just embrace the sex appeal of DOA. Sure, people have opinions, but DOA has been getting a lot more attention than it ever did.

But this doesn't feel like embracing DOA' sexiness and true spirit, it just feels they are exploiting it.
In fact, it wasn't even TN who embraced it: they wanted to cater to today's gaming tastes at first (grungy feeeels, which are a no no no no no), but then fans protested and asked to have the fanservice back, and what did they do? They catered to them instead, but not like the old DOA, with style and coeherence, but with exploits and cheapness.
TN doesn't want to get rid of the stigma anyway because they have got a safe market (especially in Japan) and they roll with it. They don't care about the stigma and the fact that nobody takes DOA seriously because they get money anyway.

And as I said a million of times: as much as I dislike most of DLC outfits (I spend NO money on them), I can understand they bring money that's needed to get upgrades, and maybe even fix the netcode!

And the attention: I think that's because DOA is now multiplat, many more people play videogames nowdays and there's Core Fighters.
The Xbox might've been popular in the USA but over here during DOA3/2U/4 the majority of people in Europe had a PS2, same with Asia and Japan.

 

[oMASTER LEGENDo]

Question to everyone I'm confused what purpose does this serve in the fighting game community again??

 

[UncleKitchener]

Question to everyone I'm confused what purpose does this serve in the fighting game community again??

Tiiiiiiiiiits

Which is nice and all, but TN need to market in a way that would be both sexy and cool. Right now, it just comes off as something that transitioned from a marketing meeting with a couple of suits and some graphs about target demographic instead of a bunch of people sitting and discussing what cool and and what looks sexy while smoking blunt and making up scetches.

I would suggest those guys just take a trip down to Amsterdam for a week and then come back with better marketing ideas.

 

[Number 13]

It serves the community well because they get that fap- *cough* I mean fight money. Which means continued development support. Some of that support may end up being good things like stages and characters which I imagine we care about. DoA 5 is one of the more developer supported fighting games in the market and part of that reason is because they have a loyal and deep pocket demographic that loves that part of DoA. Honestly instead of trying to scrub away that negative stigma mark that won't ever come out, they should accept/embrace it and allow it to coexist with other elements of DoA that we enjoy.

 

[Jyakotu]

Maybe in DOA6, they'll find that balance of both sexy and cool.

 

[Brute]

It serves the community well because they get that fap- *cough* I mean fight money.

 

[werewolfgold]

Right now, it just comes off as something that transitioned from a marketing meeting with a couple of suits and some graphs about target demographic instead of a bunch of people sitting and discussing what cool and and what looks sexy while smoking blunt and making up scetches.

Wait. Which one are you suggesting is more favorable...?

I'm not sure I want my games in the hands of of a bunch of suits or a bunch of high people. lol

 

[Malfury]

Please read this. Itagaki touched on the issue of sexualization.

It's obvious that you guys, the loyal DOA fans, have been divided. Lemme explain in a way anyone can understand. I made the fighting game "DOA", and the action game "Ninja Gaiden." As the third pillar, I also created "DOA:Xtreme." Why did I create DOAX? The major purpose of DOAX was to act as a firewall for the main DOA fighter series, so that it wouldn't become excessively erotic.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love sexy women, that's also one purpose. But in a fighting game, there's no need for really excessive sexual imagery. Naturally, there're definitely people in the DOA fanbase who are looking for that. But at the same time, there're also those who don't wanna see that. So I decided to make a spin-off title to solve that dilemma with Zack Island, a paradise on an island in the south. As the creator of the DOA universe, I wanted to make and keep all DOA fans as happy as possible, so I've set up that barrier.

In other words, DOA and DOAX were two games with completely different purposes, and you absolutely CANNOT lump them together. But what did DOA5 blah blah blah do? I'm sure you guys already know. But lemme proclaim. Current Team NINJA was/is injecting too much sexualism into a game where it's not needed for several reasons. It's like attempting to prolong its almost dead body with a life-sustaining serum (or poison, in this case). As a result, those fans who don't like super-sexualized games have backed away from the fighting game DOA. What the hell kind of game designer would do something as insane as that? But they did.
All DOA fans shouldn't avert their eyes from this issue.

This was on my wall on Facebook and it makes alot of sense.

 

[werewolfgold]

Huh. Where was this posted? On his page?

 

[Malfury]

On his Facebook, yeah. I can't figure out how to link it since it was a post on my wall, and I can't find it on his either at the moment :/.

He wrote way more than this. A really super long paragraph on some issues he's having with DOA5 and such, but figured that was the most relavent to this topic

 

[werewolfgold]

If you click on the time part, "1 hr", "30 min", etc., whenever it was posted (it should be beneath the name of the poster), it should give you a permalink. Whether or not other people can see it when you follow the link is up in the air, but you can give it shot. You may have to change the post thing to "public", which is next to the timestamp (if it doesn't work on it's own).

Edit: Wait. If it was his post, then he's probably the only one that can change the public setting. But, if all else fails, take a screenshot of it for proof.

 

[Malfury]

https://www.facebook.com/tomonobu.itagaki/posts/1513962288867884?pnref=story

Comments is the super long paragraph, but it's all a good read. He went all out on this.

 

[werewolfgold]

Ah, I see. Yeah, linking directly to comments kind of sucks, but you can technically...

https://www.facebook.com/tomonobu.i...d=1514624682134978&offset=0&total_comments=90

It does add some perspective. If he did tell someone within TN his thoughts on why DOAX happened and why it should creep into the fighting game part, then I guess that's pretty much all he can do.

lol @ "blow up the DOA universe".