Gultigargar
Well-Known Member
Nope, sorry. At least not in normal battles. I haven't tested it in story mode, but you can't normally play Tengu there anyway so I didn't bother.
[DOA2++] Moveset Editing Project
- Thread starter usagiZ
- Start date
This project looks so interesting! I randomly played with some hexes for hit animations and it was amusing. Messing around with color schemes and adjusting outfits was noticeably more difficult.
Gultigargar, is there any update to the notes animation you put out? Or was there a distinct break between common animations and character specific ones? At least there was a relatively distinct pattern with how the animations were organized.
Also I was just wondering, did DOAO have like, a gravity difference from DOA2U? Systematically the two games are similar, but whenever I watch gameplay video for DOAO it's like the character launching height is higher or the launching speed is slower (or just the game running slower). Could that just be from lag/delay? The characters look oddly floaty-er, whether it's the fall speed or the clothing physics. This is more obvious with Kasumi probably due to her lighter attire in some of her costumes (ex: C5 or C11) and the lightweight classification. My experience playing on DOAO doesn't look the same as video I see. Did the game itself have an update at some point?
Perhaps my computer doesn't run high enough specs or some setting is or is not there.
I was also curious on mid-air hits. Sometimes a character that's when mid-jump, but back-turned would cause an upside-down back-facing animation. In DOA4 I recall there was longer air time, so it was possible to combo further, but I think in DOA2U it quickly exceeds damage threshold limits or something. Not only that, but certain mid-air hits would instantly make the hit character front-facing, effectively reversing directions. Are those animations considered?
I'm also curious if implementation of DOA 3 life bars is remotely possible. The green -> yellow -> red indicator really stood out along with the game. It's very minor, but the colors did give a good visual of estimated life gauge. The other thing I recall from DOA 3 was the harder pressure for some of the moves. I don't recall DOA2U noticeably having those, is charging or pressurized button inputs on moves even possible? I think Bass had an awesome throw that you can pressure the throw input longer for a more powerful throw.
I haven't had so much fun with DOA previously. Looking forward to 2.4 and further updates.
Gultigargar, is there any update to the notes animation you put out? Or was there a distinct break between common animations and character specific ones? At least there was a relatively distinct pattern with how the animations were organized.
Also I was just wondering, did DOAO have like, a gravity difference from DOA2U? Systematically the two games are similar, but whenever I watch gameplay video for DOAO it's like the character launching height is higher or the launching speed is slower (or just the game running slower). Could that just be from lag/delay? The characters look oddly floaty-er, whether it's the fall speed or the clothing physics. This is more obvious with Kasumi probably due to her lighter attire in some of her costumes (ex: C5 or C11) and the lightweight classification. My experience playing on DOAO doesn't look the same as video I see. Did the game itself have an update at some point?
Perhaps my computer doesn't run high enough specs or some setting is or is not there.
I was also curious on mid-air hits. Sometimes a character that's when mid-jump, but back-turned would cause an upside-down back-facing animation. In DOA4 I recall there was longer air time, so it was possible to combo further, but I think in DOA2U it quickly exceeds damage threshold limits or something. Not only that, but certain mid-air hits would instantly make the hit character front-facing, effectively reversing directions. Are those animations considered?
I'm also curious if implementation of DOA 3 life bars is remotely possible. The green -> yellow -> red indicator really stood out along with the game. It's very minor, but the colors did give a good visual of estimated life gauge. The other thing I recall from DOA 3 was the harder pressure for some of the moves. I don't recall DOA2U noticeably having those, is charging or pressurized button inputs on moves even possible? I think Bass had an awesome throw that you can pressure the throw input longer for a more powerful throw.
I haven't had so much fun with DOA previously. Looking forward to 2.4 and further updates.
Gultigargar
Well-Known Member
Here's an updated version: _NOTES Tengu Animations.txt
I can't remember exactly where the shared animations begin or end, though from what I remember usagiZ knows.
For the most part though, it's probably easier to just copy+paste properties from moves that have the launch/stun/whatever you want.
usagiZ
Well-Known Member
@Gultigargar Each character has guard properties starting at "00 00", ending at "1D 00" then it goes to the common properties starting from "1E 00" (which is standard high punch - normal hit) - and ending at "85 02" (which is DOA1 throw break - I think) then it loops back to the rest of the character-specific properties in the bin, starting from "86 02".
@Amoirsp The stance-dependent attacks are programmed to use the property assigned to the move and the property right after the one assigned, so if you assign "A0 01" to the move, it'll use "A1 01" for closed stance - which is why some properties seem to be in pairs. (At least, that's what I know for now.)
@Amoirsp The stance-dependent attacks are programmed to use the property assigned to the move and the property right after the one assigned, so if you assign "A0 01" to the move, it'll use "A1 01" for closed stance - which is why some properties seem to be in pairs. (At least, that's what I know for now.)
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usagiZ
Well-Known Member
Hey again, and thanks to anyone still watching the thread.
I'm currently looking for suggestions for Zack and Jann Lee.
Importing attacks from 3 and 4 is possible, so keep that in mind.
The suggestions should be in this format starting from most important to least important:
CHARACTER NAME
Suggestion (Game - Input - New Input)
Explanation
Suggestion (Game - Input - New Input)
Explanation
Suggestion (Game - Input - New Input)
Explanation
-------------------------------------------------
Here's an example: (it doesn't have to be in a small font. I'm doing that to save space.)
ZACK
DOA3 input:
New input:
Zack lacked launchers in 2U and didn't get much height from his current high kick launcher. His 8K launcher in 3 was a better option than his 8K in 2U.
JANN LEE
DOA4 input: New input:
This was a quick attack and added another option to the end of his P2P/ 6P strings for a useful juggle finisher.
-------------------------------------------------
The important inputs should be emotes, so they're easy to spot. The other inputs can be notated with text. If you don't want to post in the thread, but still have suggestions, you can tell me in a "conversation".
The first version of the patch is more than halfway done - and your input will help get this patch completed.
I'm currently looking for suggestions for Zack and Jann Lee.
Importing attacks from 3 and 4 is possible, so keep that in mind.
The suggestions should be in this format starting from most important to least important:
CHARACTER NAME
Suggestion (Game - Input - New Input)
Explanation
Suggestion (Game - Input - New Input)
Explanation
Suggestion (Game - Input - New Input)
Explanation
-------------------------------------------------
Here's an example: (it doesn't have to be in a small font. I'm doing that to save space.)
ZACK
DOA3 input:
New input: Zack lacked launchers in 2U and didn't get much height from his current high kick launcher. His 8K launcher in 3 was a better option than his 8K in 2U.
JANN LEE
DOA4 input:
New input: This was a quick attack and added another option to the end of his P2P/ 6P strings for a useful juggle finisher.
-------------------------------------------------
The important inputs should be emotes, so they're easy to spot. The other inputs can be notated with text. If you don't want to post in the thread, but still have suggestions, you can tell me in a "conversation".
The first version of the patch is more than halfway done - and your input will help get this patch completed.
86 02 is a character specific bin? How do you deduce which is which character?
I don't know how to type in the P and K functions nor the arrows so I won't be able to type suggestions in the correct format. I will say that usagiZ's 2.4 version should add more components of 4 (the actual positive ones) since Gultigargar's build heavily emphasizes 3. I could think of a few examples but they're more for aesthetics (specifically conditional crumpling) than balance.
I'm still confused by the speed of the game. Does DOAO run differently with different computer specs or connection speeds? A lot of video I see look like it has a longer loading time, making animations either slower/longer or clothes hiking higher. It's visually much different than when I play, or maybe that's because playing on a keyboard is way different than a pad.
I don't know how to type in the P and K functions nor the arrows so I won't be able to type suggestions in the correct format. I will say that usagiZ's 2.4 version should add more components of 4 (the actual positive ones) since Gultigargar's build heavily emphasizes 3. I could think of a few examples but they're more for aesthetics (specifically conditional crumpling) than balance.
I'm still confused by the speed of the game. Does DOAO run differently with different computer specs or connection speeds? A lot of video I see look like it has a longer loading time, making animations either slower/longer or clothes hiking higher. It's visually much different than when I play, or maybe that's because playing on a keyboard is way different than a pad.
usagiZ
Well-Known Member
Hey @Amoirsp, It depends which character you're using. If you're using Tengu, 86 02 is Tengu's first custom property. If you're using Ein, 86 02 is Ein's first custom property. I hope that explains it.
(The P and K functions are emotes. Click the smiley to see the emote window, and you can select them from there.)
As for DOAO, it's a direct port with no mechanics changes - so the gravity is the same. The only real difference is the cloth physics seems to have been exaggerated or changed to be really floaty. I did notice a bit more input lag, though it might just be on my end.
The patch is a character moveset mod, primarily - and some DOA4 attacks are being added. I'm still working on a few mechanics tweaks, but those are still experimental and won't be released with the patch until further testing is done.
The good news (lol?) is that only a few characters are left, and there's an opportunity to work on this now.
Feel free to offer suggestions:
Characters needing suggestions:
Jann Lee
Leon
Bayman
Characters ready for Build 1:
Tina
Hitomi
Kasumi
Bass
Ayane
Zack
Tengu
Helena
Leifang
Ein
Hayabusa
Gen Fu
(The P and K functions are emotes. Click the smiley to see the emote window, and you can select them from there.)
As for DOAO, it's a direct port with no mechanics changes - so the gravity is the same. The only real difference is the cloth physics seems to have been exaggerated or changed to be really floaty. I did notice a bit more input lag, though it might just be on my end.
The patch is a character moveset mod, primarily - and some DOA4 attacks are being added. I'm still working on a few mechanics tweaks, but those are still experimental and won't be released with the patch until further testing is done.
The good news (lol?) is that only a few characters are left, and there's an opportunity to work on this now.
Feel free to offer suggestions:
Characters needing suggestions:
Jann Lee
Leon
Bayman
Characters ready for Build 1:
Tina
Hitomi
Kasumi
Bass
Ayane
Zack
Tengu
Helena
Leifang
Ein
Hayabusa
Gen Fu
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That's odd, the DOAO I run doesn't have cloth physics exaggerated nor really floaty (at least not like what I saw in every video). The exaggeration is good for physics that make sense with it (falling?) but is out of place for say ... just standing. I don't know if it's a system thing, a file thing, or an internet thing. Same confusion with the inputs. The game's mechanics may be no different than 2U, but it certainly feels slightly different (again, visuals really).
I ask about the animations since DOA4 had some hit animations that don't exist in 2U, some which were positive additions, since 2U's variations aren't that high. One that's noticeable is when you hit a mid-air opponent, it tends to default to the same position (whereas 4 introduced things like flipping over or back-facing animations depending on the hits). There were also low sweeps that trip characters to a 360 motion, but I don't know if the patch goes that far.
For moveset additions from 4, I would say opt to add in moves that were purely additional.
Something like Jann Lee's basic string? In 4 I recall you could add an additional . The only things that come to mind immediately from 4 is recalling longer strings, charge moves, and potentially higher launcher heights.
I think you mentioned before that you were tweaking and Ayane potentially was able to do an air combo infinite on a mid character which was just wrong. That's why I asked about the gravity aspect since the launching height will greatly affect what combos can be done.
Ein suggestion:
EIN
DOA4 input: New input:
In DOA4 this move caused a stomach crumple and often was used as a setup for a launcher. Also, it's functionality in 2U seems too similar to say, .
For Zack, was it possible to implement his? The utility behind the ducking was nice, even if it wasn't really used. I recall DOA2U doesn't even have a different move for that input, and comes out as .
I'm curious on the mechanics tweaks, but one thing at a time.
UsagiZ, is your 2.4 mod attempting to explore the vast moveset possibilities, or is this at an attempt in balance? Conceptually speaking, I would think looking at the 2U non-top tier characters, you'd want to implement a few useful moves from 4 that didn't exist in 2U for said characters, if any.
Thanks for answering my questions. My head exploded from playing around with the bins and there's probably many other adjustable aspects.
I ask about the animations since DOA4 had some hit animations that don't exist in 2U, some which were positive additions, since 2U's variations aren't that high. One that's noticeable is when you hit a mid-air opponent, it tends to default to the same position (whereas 4 introduced things like flipping over or back-facing animations depending on the hits). There were also low sweeps that trip characters to a 360 motion, but I don't know if the patch goes that far.
For moveset additions from 4, I would say opt to add in moves that were purely additional.
Something like Jann Lee's basic
string? In 4 I recall you could add an additional . The only things that come to mind immediately from 4 is recalling longer strings, charge moves, and potentially higher launcher heights.I think you mentioned before that you were tweaking and Ayane potentially was able to do an air combo infinite on a mid character which was just wrong. That's why I asked about the gravity aspect since the launching height will greatly affect what combos can be done.
Ein suggestion:
EIN
DOA4 input:
New input: In DOA4 this move caused a stomach crumple and often was used as a setup for a
launcher. Also, it's functionality in 2U seems too similar to say, .For Zack, was it possible to implement his
? The utility behind the ducking was nice, even if it wasn't really used. I recall DOA2U doesn't even have a different move for that input, and comes out as .I'm curious on the mechanics tweaks, but one thing at a time.
UsagiZ, is your 2.4 mod attempting to explore the vast moveset possibilities, or is this at an attempt in balance? Conceptually speaking, I would think looking at the 2U non-top tier characters, you'd want to implement a few useful moves from 4 that didn't exist in 2U for said characters, if any.
Thanks for answering my questions. My head exploded from playing around with the bins and there's probably many other adjustable aspects.
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Gultigargar
Well-Known Member
Struggling to think of something for Ein, but I think I got a few things.
EIN
I'd like to see this be +1 on normal hit. It gives him a bit more to work with when a faster character gets in his face, which is a situation where I find he struggles a lot.
Amoirsp's suggestion
I'm a bit torn on this one. The recovery on is kind of long, so I think if you put a stun on it then your opponent could basically just instantly hold to recover, possibly before Ein can even do anything.
But, as he also pointed out, and are both knockback moves that do more damage and are just as fast. So I guess maybe try seeing how a crumble stun on would work and then change it or leave it as it is when we find out how it works out.
Lastly, I still think it looks like an attack that would send you flying, so maybe keep the knockback on counter-hit? We already have other moves that cause stomach crumbles, and , so I'm mostly trying to make stand out from them.
Nightpup's/ suggestion
This could probably apply to Hitomi as well. While I do think it would be cool to be able to do that move on its own, I can't see much use for it as it is now. That's why I'm suggesting to make/ into a mini-launch (basically trying to simulate a ground-bounce). For its launch height I'm thinking something along the lines of being the only/best follow-up.
EDIT: Having tried a few different hit animations with this move on my own, I'm having trouble finding anything that looks good/feel right. I think I'm changing my vote to leaving this move as it is...
/
Another one that could be implemented for both Ein and Hitomi. In the middle of a match it can be pretty hard to input/buffer and correctly, so I think it might be best to do like DOA4 did where Ein's -string had its input changed to , and 's input became .
GEN FU
This old bastard is so damn good that he basically doesn't need anything new. Still, I'd like to see his attack and his / strings from DOA3 implemented, even if we don't know how to make wall-splats yet.
HAYABUSA
I don't really play him much, but my friend EvilJun who does really misses being able to finish juggles with. However, I'm pretty sure his launch heights are the same in DOA3 and DOA2U, so the problem seems to lie with 's hitbox not catching people that are close to the ground.
So yeah, don't know if you can change it, plus he can finish with which I think only does something like 4 less damage, so it's no major thing, just a little tweak that would be nice to have.
JANN LEE
Since you already said you were going to implement his then I don't think he really needs anything else. From what I remember he did get some other stuff in DOA3 like and but they seem a bit gimmicky to me, probably not worth the effort to implement.
But I should point out that I'm no Jann Lee player, so if I'm totally wrong here then please do point it out.
EIN
I'd like to see this be +1 on normal hit. It gives him a bit more to work with when a faster character gets in his face, which is a situation where I find he struggles a lot.
Amoirsp's
suggestionI'm a bit torn on this one. The recovery on
is kind of long, so I think if you put a stun on it then your opponent could basically just instantly hold to recover, possibly before Ein can even do anything.But, as he also pointed out,
and are both knockback moves that do more damage and are just as fast. So I guess maybe try seeing how a crumble stun on would work and then change it or leave it as it is when we find out how it works out.Lastly, I still think it looks like an attack that would send you flying, so maybe keep the knockback on counter-hit? We already have other moves that cause stomach crumbles,
and , so I'm mostly trying to make stand out from them.Nightpup's
/ suggestionThis could probably apply to Hitomi as well. While I do think it would be cool to be able to do that move on its own, I can't see much use for it as it is now. That's why I'm suggesting to make
/ into a mini-launch (basically trying to simulate a ground-bounce). For its launch height I'm thinking something along the lines of being the only/best follow-up.EDIT: Having tried a few different hit animations with this move on my own, I'm having trouble finding anything that looks good/feel right. I think I'm changing my vote to leaving this move as it is...
/Another one that could be implemented for both Ein and Hitomi. In the middle of a match it can be pretty hard to input/buffer
and correctly, so I think it might be best to do like DOA4 did where Ein's -string had its input changed to , and 's input became .GEN FU
This old bastard is so damn good that he basically doesn't need anything new. Still, I'd like to see his
attack and his / strings from DOA3 implemented, even if we don't know how to make wall-splats yet.HAYABUSA
I don't really play him much, but my friend EvilJun who does really misses being able to finish juggles with
. However, I'm pretty sure his launch heights are the same in DOA3 and DOA2U, so the problem seems to lie with 's hitbox not catching people that are close to the ground.So yeah, don't know if you can change it, plus he can finish with
which I think only does something like 4 less damage, so it's no major thing, just a little tweak that would be nice to have.JANN LEE
Since you already said you were going to implement his
then I don't think he really needs anything else. From what I remember he did get some other stuff in DOA3 like and but they seem a bit gimmicky to me, probably not worth the effort to implement.But I should point out that I'm no Jann Lee player, so if I'm totally wrong here then please do point it out.
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It's already been suggested before that Ein's is +1, so I say go ahead and do that. It'll be noticeable if it's too advantageous or not.
And yes, I meant to say crumple stun. I forgot the meanings are actually different. I think it was one of the 50's but I can't remember which one. It's the same one that Zack's does, along with many many other moves.
You guys mentioned certain ground bouncing. I'm aware DOA4 does this, but I don't recall DOA3 featuring it too much. Was that within your gameplay considerations? It gives another element of fall recovery, though I'm not well versed in the deepest of data.
Also in DOA4 I recall certain high counter hits launched characters really high. Though I don't think DOAO went that high.
Speaking of suggestions on characters for 2.4, I would look into Leon and Bayman's movesets from 4. Since they're not top tier in DOAO, there's likely some function you can extract. Unfortunately, from what I call, since their movesets were somewhat smaller, there wasn't much variation either, other than say, longer combo holds and combo throws.
Since you guys are reducing the hold function's dominance, did you change any gameplay mechanics regarding general guarding, such as guard crushes? Or were parries such as Lei-Fang's specific holds altered in any way?
Lastly I recall a lot of DOA3 moves were actually pressure oriented like :[[P]]:, what was your solution to that?
is +1, so I say go ahead and do that. It'll be noticeable if it's too advantageous or not.And yes, I meant to say crumple stun. I forgot the meanings are actually different. I think it was one of the 50's but I can't remember which one. It's the same one that Zack's
does, along with many many other moves.You guys mentioned certain ground bouncing. I'm aware DOA4 does this, but I don't recall DOA3 featuring it too much. Was that within your gameplay considerations? It gives another element of fall recovery, though I'm not well versed in the deepest of data.
Also in DOA4 I recall certain high counter hits launched characters really high. Though I don't think DOAO went that high.
Speaking of suggestions on characters for 2.4, I would look into Leon and Bayman's movesets from 4. Since they're not top tier in DOAO, there's likely some function you can extract. Unfortunately, from what I call, since their movesets were somewhat smaller, there wasn't much variation either, other than say, longer combo holds and combo throws.
Since you guys are reducing the hold function's dominance, did you change any gameplay mechanics regarding general guarding, such as guard crushes? Or were parries such as Lei-Fang's specific holds altered in any way?
Lastly I recall a lot of DOA3 moves were actually pressure oriented like :[[P]]:, what was your solution to that?
usagiZ
Well-Known Member
Hey everyone. Thanks for the input.
@Amoirsp DOA3 had an analog button option, to use pressure-sensitive inputs or standard inputs. That won't be added, even if it were possible. If you meant the charged attacks (like Ein's DOA4:[[P]], those aren't being added either.
Guard crush/Guard break: They work, sort of - but if the attack has wall-splat properties, the guard crush instead acts as an unblockable near walls. I'm trying to fix this.
Holds: They have less active frames (18 now, 22 before) and the low hold animations are much more obvious now. (I'm also testing stuns you can't hold out of. I think DOA5U has a few of those. It's just a test, though.)
Ground Bounce: A few characters (i.e. Bass, Leon, Bayman, and Tina.) could use the DOA4 high-ground-bounce. They either don't launch high enough, or have too many recovery frames to do longer juggles. Feel free to share your thoughts on this.
I'm working on EIN at the moment, and had some ideas for new strings:
Input: ( into BT )
It seems like he only has one way to end most of his strings - so I thought giving him a few more options made sense.
--------------------
Input: ( into )
His middle jab is a bit awkward to me as a single strike - in later games, most characters had their single strikes made into strings of two or three hits, but Ein didn't really change.
-------------------
I don't really use Ein, so please tell me if these are reasonable.
@Amoirsp DOA3 had an analog button option, to use pressure-sensitive inputs or standard inputs. That won't be added, even if it were possible. If you meant the charged attacks (like Ein's DOA4
:[[P]], those aren't being added either.Guard crush/Guard break: They work, sort of - but if the attack has wall-splat properties, the guard crush instead acts as an unblockable near walls. I'm trying to fix this.
Holds: They have less active frames (18 now, 22 before) and the low hold animations are much more obvious now. (I'm also testing stuns you can't hold out of. I think DOA5U has a few of those. It's just a test, though.)
Ground Bounce: A few characters (i.e. Bass, Leon, Bayman, and Tina.) could use the DOA4 high-ground-bounce. They either don't launch high enough, or have too many recovery frames to do longer juggles. Feel free to share your thoughts on this.
I'm working on EIN at the moment, and had some ideas for new strings:
Input:
( into BT )It seems like he only has one way to end most of his strings - so I thought giving him a few more options made sense.
--------------------
Input:
( into )His middle jab is a bit awkward to me as a single strike - in later games, most characters had their single strikes made into strings of two or three hits, but Ein didn't really change.
-------------------
I don't really use Ein, so please tell me if these are reasonable.
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Yeah I was referring to pressure-sensitive inputs. Definitely a big DOA3 memory for me. As you said, it doesn't make much sense to implement.
I also figured out that cloth physics mystery: I needed to use a much lower spec computer to see similar visuals. Then again, the game skipped around a lot of frames. So now I know some older DOAO video I see online was likely due to a lower spec computer. I don't really get how the connections work though.
Guard crushing acting as an unblockable near walls sounds interesting, but so odd. From your explanations, it sounds like wall-splat properties have their own separate category. Playing around with hit animations lead to ... interesting results. I wish there were an easier way to test out them all to get a full list.
For holds, while nerfing them is an obvious move, have throws been tampered? It's likely not necessary to make changes to throws but in DOA2U, high counter throws do a lot of damage. Also, are there "offensive holds"? They pretty much always existed, but they were more obvious in 4 due to actual green text, I believe. How did you balance out Leifang's parries?
I'm all for the ground bounce concept, especially on power characters that have longer recovery frames, and aren't closer to high tier either. It's not like you'd allow a new subset of longer combos to spawn from merely ground bouncing. And the moves that generate a ground bounce aren't that fast in frames. How would it look in DOAO? Would it require a DOA4 hit animation? I actually would like to see if you can sample a video showing this visually, as it's a little harder to imagine than all the other ideas. You were probably planning this for a future date anyways.
Regarding Ein, the additional followup makes sense. Maybe have one that also has a kick followup (not necessarily with specifically, I'm probably thinking of his double kick.
I'm curious on his since his seems to be better like, 100% of the time. It also has a weird whiffing behavior against an airborne opponent. This is likely intended, but it's just suboptimal.
I still think for Ein should be a crumple stun. Specifically, 54 00, if I remember correctly. Basically the one used on his DOA4 combo setup. The current DOAO version has alternative hits that achieve better results at less risk.
Since you're aiming for gameplay feasibility, if the character is already top tier, don't vie for nerfs, but adding a few options that are merely alternate to preferred approaches seems fine. In other words, Ein not really changing doesn't seem bad, but you did very clearly point out that his moveset in DOAO was actually rather incomplete with some missing functions.
For characters like Leon and Bayman ... add ... something (specifically additional strings from DOA4 that were natural improvements). At the moment I can only think of suggesting Leon's extend into . I'm pretty sure it was an additional string in DOA4. But then again, no need to implement a moveset that's gimmicky or not necessary. Trying to throw in DOA4 mechanics would never work.
I also figured out that cloth physics mystery: I needed to use a much lower spec computer to see similar visuals. Then again, the game skipped around a lot of frames. So now I know some older DOAO video I see online was likely due to a lower spec computer. I don't really get how the connections work though.
Guard crushing acting as an unblockable near walls sounds interesting, but so odd. From your explanations, it sounds like wall-splat properties have their own separate category. Playing around with hit animations lead to ... interesting results. I wish there were an easier way to test out them all to get a full list.
For holds, while nerfing them is an obvious move, have throws been tampered? It's likely not necessary to make changes to throws but in DOA2U, high counter throws do a lot of damage. Also, are there "offensive holds"? They pretty much always existed, but they were more obvious in 4 due to actual green text, I believe. How did you balance out Leifang's parries?
I'm all for the ground bounce concept, especially on power characters that have longer recovery frames, and aren't closer to high tier either. It's not like you'd allow a new subset of longer combos to spawn from merely ground bouncing. And the moves that generate a ground bounce aren't that fast in frames. How would it look in DOAO? Would it require a DOA4 hit animation? I actually would like to see if you can sample a video showing this visually, as it's a little harder to imagine than all the other ideas. You were probably planning this for a future date anyways.
Regarding Ein, the
additional followup makes sense. Maybe have one that also has a kick followup (not necessarily with specifically, I'm probably thinking of his double kick.I'm curious on his
since his seems to be better like, 100% of the time. It also has a weird whiffing behavior against an airborne opponent. This is likely intended, but it's just suboptimal.I still think
for Ein should be a crumple stun. Specifically, 54 00, if I remember correctly. Basically the one used on his DOA4 combo setup. The current DOAO version has alternative hits that achieve better results at less risk.Since you're aiming for gameplay feasibility, if the character is already top tier, don't vie for nerfs, but adding a few options that are merely alternate to preferred approaches seems fine. In other words, Ein not really changing doesn't seem bad, but you did very clearly point out that his moveset in DOAO was actually rather incomplete with some missing functions.
For characters like Leon and Bayman ... add ... something (specifically additional strings from DOA4 that were natural improvements). At the moment I can only think of suggesting Leon's
extend into . I'm pretty sure it was an additional string in DOA4. But then again, no need to implement a moveset that's gimmicky or not necessary. Trying to throw in DOA4 mechanics would never work.
Gultigargar
Well-Known Member
I could see working. Sounds fine to me. I'm against adding more than one string ender on it, though. I prefer the follow-up being there to make people respect his , not so he can do some weird stun-game mixup. on its own is already a really good stun.I'm kind of against adding more stuff onto
, too. From my experience the move tends to be used as either a whiff-punisher or as a launcher during stun. This is kind of hard for me to put into words, but adding string-mixups to it like that basically changes the move's uses, and I think it works just fine the way it is now.Since you asked for inputs on ground-bounces: I think I prefer them used the way DOA3 did, where they weren't really launchers but instead a way for you to continue a string that would otherwise have knocked you down. (Zack's
, Hayate's and Brad Wong's are all examples of this.) Not that it should be ruled out to use them as launchers, but I'd prefer that to be the exception rather than the rule.
What's your thoughts on the jump kick/punch element of the game? Due to the way the game tends to be played, such attacks have narrow uses, such as being superior to an enemy low strike done simultaneously, but is there a way to indirectly adding incentive to mixing such attacks in without changing much of the gameplay?
Also I recall in DOA4 there were trade priorities where if both players execute a move that have the same frames at the same time, the one with more damage output takes priority. In DOA2U I believe it just trades as counter hits?
I think that's one of the few aspects that wasn't mentioned.
Also I recall in DOA4 there were trade priorities where if both players execute a move that have the same frames at the same time, the one with more damage output takes priority. In DOA2U I believe it just trades as counter hits?
I think that's one of the few aspects that wasn't mentioned.
usagiZ
Well-Known Member
@Amoirsp The problem with jump attacks is that they were always a bit gimmicky. You can delay jump attacks - which means all jump attacks have varying "safety" depending on which frame it was executed on. To make the safest recovery, you had to delay them until the last possible frame (they were still throw punishable). This kind of very precise timing is a bit out of place in earlier DOA games. That's probably why jump attacks were removed altogether in DOA5. (and DOAD I think?)
Like you said, there's not really an incentive to use them, other than against low wake-up kicks. The best I can think of is to maybe change the hit property, and/or make them all safe on guard (but this is a problem because of the delayable execution).
I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on the topic of jump attacks.
As for "priority" in DOA4: I can't/won't change the base mechanics of the game.The only things changing are the characters' movesets -- only their attacks, to be specific. There's only room for a few stuns and properties to be ported, but that's about all that's happening.
@Nightpup Thanks for your input, and interest.
The animations can be ported, but the camera wouldn't follow the new animations - so it'd look really bad. This is one of the reasons throws aren't being changed. (another reason is file-size limit)
While editing Zack, I had a thought:
In DOA5U, his ends with his DOA2
Is that a good change? It seems awful. I don't use him, so I could be wrong.
Like you said, there's not really an incentive to use them, other than against low wake-up kicks. The best I can think of is to maybe change the hit property, and/or make them all safe on guard (but this is a problem because of the delayable execution).
I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on the topic of jump attacks.
As for "priority" in DOA4: I can't/won't change the base mechanics of the game.The only things changing are the characters' movesets -- only their attacks, to be specific. There's only room for a few stuns and properties to be ported, but that's about all that's happening.
@Nightpup Thanks for your input, and interest.
The animations can be ported, but the camera wouldn't follow the new animations - so it'd look really bad. This is one of the reasons throws aren't being changed. (another reason is file-size limit)
While editing Zack, I had a thought:
In DOA5U, his
ends with his DOA2 Is that a good change? It seems awful. I don't use him, so I could be wrong.