Do you want to see more diversity in DoA's character designs?

[jusD]

While reading this thread and about the new characters like Marie Rose (she is not in my vanilla DOA 5 on ps3 as far as I know, probably DLC or FR character) I suddenly realize that TN put much more thought than I give credit for, specially if I take "jab at Sweden" that @candynarwhal mentioned into account:

Marie Rose come from the great nation of "The Russians are coming, no sexy for you and cultural appropriation is verboten".
Marie Rose' name is an internationalized, or appropriated, version of some variation of Ros-Marie.
Her fashion is either French or Japanese Gothic Maid which can be seen as a sexualized fetish cosplay.
Her style is one which has been mentioned in one larger newspaper in Sweden as having connections with "Russian spies and intelligence agency".
...
I guess if they added some quote in line with "Certainly I'm not a Russian spy but..." it would be to on the nose.
Great troll TN, would rage again!

 

[human013]

Again. It's not about diversity in the way that you keep implying, and are clearly terrified of, sis.

Diversity

• the state of being diverse; variety
• a range of different things
• the practice or quality of including or involving people from a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds and of different genders, sexual orientations, etc

You guys hate and complain passionately about Marie, Honoka, and Nico because they are different but I'm the one who is terrified? C'mon now. I'm sure the diversity you guys are talking about isn't really diverisity.

Case in point, you guys are completely fine complaining about Swedish and Finnish characters (there's are not many in DOA) and say they don't add to the diversity quota. Now, if they added a character from Nigeria or Iran and people complain like how you guys are when it comes to Swedish and Finnish characters... Oh no... They would be considered... Oohh no...

Certain nationalities/ ethnicities don't matter or count but others do. Yeah, TN needs to avoid you guys like the plague. You guys don't really want diversity. You guys want "Diversity".

I mean, they might put another black character in DOA, but at this rate, that'll be when the ganguro trend gets revived in Japan and that becomes the en-vogue thing, lmao (which I would love, by the way).

Nothing wrong with that. If something isn't popular why would they create a character with that element? I don't know how that is an issue.

Maybe not all of the 18-year-olds introduced to the franchise since 2013 (with the release of DOA5U) have been Japanese, I'm sorry for making that heinous factual error. I'm sure you got the point of what I was saying, all the same. They're the new poster girls, but they don't deserve to be.

Nah, just pointing out the habit you guys have in creating this alternate reality and blaming things that do not even exist. And, what is with the constant attack on popularity? lmao. It is not the people's fault the old girls are bland as hell. Nothing has been done to them to make them interesting. What, if Marie and Honoka did not exist they would have been as popular as them? When they were nowhere near as popular for years? Even now Kasumi and Ayane are forgettable. Boring things get thrown away for new things. Not a revolutionary idea.

For what it's worth, I think Rig is an incredibly boring character. The only reason he exists is so that the story can have a bad guy. I don't think Mila is much better, but she at least has a personality independent of her status as the #1 Bass Armstrong stan in the world, lol, in that she "inherited" Hitomi's bright-eyedness and competitive attitude.

(Mila has barely any story involvement, which is why you're not hearing anyone complain about that)

No matter how you spin it they are just as bland and dumb as Marie and Honoka. They have personalities as boring as Mila and don't matter to the story. Why aren't you guys complaining about these non-Japanese characters when they have all the issues Marie and Honoka have? Where is the hate for Nyo?

Kokoro was never characterized as an "anime airhead" until Dimensions. Ayane always had shades of tsundere in her, sure, but this didn't come to the forefront until Dimensions either. It wasn't until Dimensions that she was all torn-up and going to kill herself because Hayate favored Kasumi over her.

If a tsundere was all she ever was, where was this scene, or an equivalent, in the original DOA1-4?

Ayane: Always bitchy but has moments where she is not. Acts tsundere but she is not because you say so.
Nico: Always serious but has some moments where she is not. Completely anime and the worst thing ever. There are no other characters in DOA who act serious? wow... Nico really is the first for DOA I guess.

I wonder if I can play this game for other characters too?
Hayate: Always stern and serious but in his heart he only wants to protect. Cold on the outside and warm on the inside. He can be easily enraged. Anime much?
Hayabusa: a serious cold guy who...
Nyotengu: A Himedere but not anime.

I just don't think they're going to do that, because people like you are happy with things as they are...

Yeah, I am glad they are not doing some of the stuff you guys here want. DOA1-4 were pretty forgettable. And, they're doing what the fans want? I see no issue with that. If they did what I specifically wanted I'd be ecstatic.

I'm not as bothered about other characters like Nyotengu, Phase-4, Rachel or Momiji, because they are (currently) irrelevant to the DOA story, and I doubt they'll be included in any meaningful sort of way, anytime soon.

No value to the story but is 100% ok

• Nyo
• Phase
• Momiji
• Rachel

No value to the story but is 100% not ok

• Marie
• Honoka

What I have a problem with, is one-dimensional characters being put center stage as if they're at all interesting:

Marie happily does whatever Helena asks her to, but she's supposed to be the "wicked little servant." Honoka didn't know what was going on for the entirety of DOA6's runtime, but somehow she was still the main character (and her cluelessness was never the point). NiCO is comparatively fine, but I do wish her visual design wasn't so on-the-nose - which I'll admit is a separate problem, but still.

Yeah, me too. Was I suppose to care about Hitomi and whatever she was doing? Or Leifang wandering around fighting random people out of nowhere? Or whatever the hell Brad and Eliot were doing? They keep putting these boring ass characters on the stage as if they were interesting. Who cares about the tournament side of the story? Mila wants to meet Bass. Wow such an amazing and fleshed out story...

TN have been putting these characters in the limelight, but they have nothing to give. That's the issue.

Everyone but the ninjas have been boring. Your beloved characters from DOA1-4 never made much impact overall back then so I don't know why you guys think removing these new characters would magically make your old characters better today.

They can keep doing that, if that's what sells, but then I want new female characters that are not 18, not Japanese

Unless it is the right type of Japanese like Momiji, Nyo, and Tamaki...

and who do not correspond completely to a stereotype visually or otherwise.

Unless they are the stereotype you like, such as shrine maiden Momiji, Ara Ara Tamaki, Himedere Nyo, Dom Rachel...

We don't need another barely-legal female character who either has the largest boobs in the series or is a pettanko. That's been done now, so stop it.

DOA4

• Kokoro
• Lisa

DOA5

• Mila
• Momiji
• Rachel
• Phase
• Nyo
• Mai
• Tamaki

Want look at these "unique" bodies and repeat what you said? Especially the "That's been done now, so stop it" part? Or are average sized females with huge knockers fine no matter how many times they are repeated?

So much for variation/ diversity/ different, or whatever word you guys want to use.

 

[Project Bokuho]

 

[GreatDarkHero]

@human013 and I see eye to eye on quite a few things...

I didn't think this thread would take off as much as it did recently though.

 

[jusD]

If you want to talk about palette swaps DOA has legit clones in multiple games but I don't see you guys complaining about the Kasumi clones. There are more complaints about the "varied" new characters than the palette swaps. This says a lot about what you guys mean when you bring up variation and diversity.

Because those clones are already here so it's too late to complain now. Or maybe because people didn't know what it would lead to. Also, who are "you guys"?

It doesn't take much digging to see why that is and it has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, or body type.

Well, everyone thinks different things about what is the problem: some may find the lack of robots and animals as a reason for blandness, some find lack of ethnicity and my personal opinion is that it is these general "universalism" when it comes to characters faces and looks. Is Lisa really African-American and not Latin-American? Does Hitomi look German or Marie Rose look Swedish or Bayman Russian? Not to me they don't. And maybe it was ok in the beginning but after all these years I don't see any improvement so that's why I complain.

But please, do share why you think the roster is bland and I mean it sincerely, maybe we are talking about same thing after all just from different point of views.

You were the one telling me how businesses operated. Is an unpopular character going to sell as DLC or sell a game? The answer is simple.

Sure, just make it all battle royal gatcha with waifus and DAY0 DLC for maximum profits! Who cares about actual perceived value for the customer and the fact that many other 3d fighters have sumo and big/fat guys. Remove everybody who don't sell and see how many people are left with the product. Heck, given how few people actually finish their game we can just remove 90% of everything that at least half of steam audience don't get achievement on to reduce development time and cost.. right, perpetual early access is already a thing.

I personally don't appreciate feeling like a milking cow for the suits and do value fan service as eastern eggs, big rosters and other small things that are put in the game without calculating every cent.

Nothing is wrong with it. People just need to actually look at the game first before talking about the "creator's vision".

Played DOA3 and DOA2U for years but I probably didn't look enough. Or are you talking about what the game has become and going from there? Do you have that vision and if you do please share with everyone else so we can at least compare our understanding and interpretation of the games we played to this undeniable truth.

Look at the Iranian character example and what you wrote about the body type. You wrote, "Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster." Doesn't get anymore obvious than that. A roster should have characters people want to use. Not send a message.

And you stil go on. For someone who hates todays twitter politics you seem rather found of using their discourse and tactics of strawmen and putting words in other people mouths. But maybe I don't explain myself well enough, english is my third language after all.

I want those characters not because some "Fat people are people and must be in every game or else" agenda but because rosters with them feel more complete from a "martial tournament" kind of way. Event if I don't use E.Honda it still gives a nice depth to have him there. Both style and looks.

Same with different stages from different countries or characters with different ethnicities. I don't cry about some need of digital representation but it feels more real with visually different fighters and it is never bad if more people can like the game. Asking and wanting specific characters, which in hindsight would probably be awful, is nothing new for fighting games.

@jusD Do you want to know why I made those lists for the DOA characters' nationality and people's reaction to the DLC characters? Look at these here

The DLC and new characters since DOA5;

• Mila
• Rig
• Momiji (Japanese)
• Rachel
• Marie
• Phase-4 (Japanese)
• Nyotengu (Japanese)
• Raidou (Japanese)
• Honoka (Japanese and 18)
• Mai (Japanese)
• Diego
• Nico
• Kula
• Tamaki (Japanese)

Do we really want diversity? Or do we want "Diversity"

Problem with DOA is that all characters, as I said, just looks "human". Maybe it is their faces or just lack of better design but you could say that all of them are from Japan and I wouldn't really be able to disprove you. To me, who have seen nordic women, Marie don't look or behave Swedish and NiCO only have some small hints of Finish with her rounded face which could be mistaken for more childish one. Actually you might be right that the problem is not the ethnicities because while I love Russian guy who uses sambo, Bayman look as slavic as the indians in Cannibal the musical are indians.

 

[human013]

Because those clones are already here so it's too late to complain now.

So why are we complaining about Marie, Nico and Honoka then? And you just made an excuse to justify those clones' existence.

Or maybe because people didn't know what it would lead to.

Kasumi alpha, Alpha-152, Phase 4. Want to start complaining about this? The clone literally lead to more clones.

Is Lisa really African-American and not Latin-American? Does Hitomi look German or Marie Rose look Swedish or Bayman Russian? Not to me they don't.

Good lord what is wrong with you people lmao. If it is stated that a character is something then they just are. Your opinion does not matter. What, so unless characters look a certain way they cannot be the ethnicity they claim to be?? We ok with stereotyping races/ ethnicity now? If you say you are Native American, can I say to your face that you don't look Native American and that you're not? If your skin isn't dark enough can I say you aren't African American? Lisa doesn't have an afro or cornrows so she isn't African American? You sure this is the hill you want to battle on?

Am I getting closer to this place's definition of diversity yet??

She looks Japanese right?? When I go to Japan I'll find people like her right? I'll see Honoka, Hayate and Hayabusa too right? lol

But please, do share why you think the roster is bland

The characters look boring. It's not complicated. Want an example? Look at people's reaction to the reveal of Guilty Gear Strive's characters and compare it to people's reaction to every DOA character. Who looks more interesting? Why is it that GG is able to make entire rooms scream and jump with joy, and make the internet go wild at the reveal of literally every character but DOA's character reveals get nothing? Not hard to see why at all.

Sure, just make it all battle royal gatcha with waifus and DAY0 DLC for maximum profits! Who cares about actual perceived value for the customer and the fact that many other 3d fighters have sumo and big/fat guys. Remove everybody who don't sell and see how many people are left with the product. Heck, given how few people actually finish their game we can just remove 90% of everything that at least half of steam audience don't get achievement on to reduce development time and cost.. right, perpetual early access is already a thing.

Whatever floats your boat my man.

Played DOA3 and DOA2U for years but I probably didn't look enough. Or are you talking about what the game has become and going from there? Do you have that vision and if you do please share with everyone else so we can at least compare our understanding and interpretation of the games we played to this undeniable truth.

Here are some easy examples.

• "Nico's blue hair is out of place and too anime". Look at the girl I posted.
• "Nico's lightning and teleportation is out of place". We have energy blasts from Ryu and Hayate, and teleportation from all the ninjas. We also got lightning from Genra.

If you say "X was never in/ doesn't belong in DOA" and I can find that exact thing in the previous games then you don't know the creator's vision. It's that simple.

And you stil go on. For someone who hates todays twitter politics you seem rather found of using their discourse and tactics of strawmen and putting words in other people mouths.

I literally quoted what you wrote my guy. And I went on what you wrote.

Lets break it down then. "Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster."
"Aren't popular to use" = no one wants the character, people will not buy it, no demand for it.
"is not the same as not needed for the roster" = but put the character in.

In what world does that make sense? In a fighting game especially? Why did TN not sell Alpha-152 as DLC but sold Momiji and Rachel as DLC? Alpha-152 is needed for the roster right? I don't know what world you live in but every fighting game in existence creates their roster with characters people like and want to use.

I want those characters not because some "Fat people are people and must be in every game or else" agenda but because rosters with them feel more complete from a "martial tournament" kind of way. Event if I don't use E.Honda it still gives a nice depth to have him there. Both style and looks.

"Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster." Does he fit what you wrote? Is he popular? E. Honda is a pretty popular character with a legacy.

Problem with DOA is that all characters, as I said, just looks "human".

Because they are human. Is this a problem now?

To me, who have seen nordic women, Marie don't look or behave Swedish and NiCO only have some small hints of Finish with her rounded face which could be mistaken for more childish one.

Ah, I see. So we are stereotyping. All Swedish people act the same and look the same. All Finnish people look the same. Yeah, I don't need that in my game.

 

[werewolfgold]

You guys hate and complain passionately about Marie, Honoka, and Nico because they are different but I'm the one who is terrified?

I "hate" them precisely because they're not different, ya weirdo. lol

Compared to what we'd typically gotten in DOA, maybe. That's why I mostly give Marie a pass. But, there's nothing unique or interesting about her look overall. Twin-tailed goth-loli? Come on, now. And then in personality, she's definitely not as interesting as she could be.

The entire impetus behind Honoka as stated by the devs was "character with the largest boobs in the game" and "wears a school uniform as her default costume". So, uhh...despite the game not hurting for busty women and school uniforms being a thing since DOA1...that's what y'all got? Really? And also just has the name and hairstyle of another popular character named Honoka? And is literally an amalgam of other character's moves? And has the mannerisms of a 10-year-old, glass-cracking voice, and Marie's face? Failure. In every sense of the word.

NiCO is clearly to capitalize on Marie's popularity in a sense. And kind of gives off Rem from Re: Zero vibes. Even the hairpin is the same color. In terms of creativity, that's not super great for me. I don't mind the lightning powers and I think her personality is amusing. But I do think it's a missed opportunity to get a character from a region of the world we haven't explored yet (SE Asia) that comes with it new cultural signifiers, looks, and fashion. Instead we got someone who was going to be Russian (we got that), and got changed to Finland, which is new. But, it's next door to Sweden. And her face isn't super distinct from Marie's either. So, they shot themselves in the foot in terms of setting her apart there. My "pass" expires if you're going to just keep copying Marie who was already not a super-inspired idea to begin with.

Look, just stop lumping in everyone together. I've personally complained about Nyotengu being hilarious too safe of a design when she was revealed given what Bankotsubo and other Ninja Gaiden tengu had already been shown to look like. They literally took a Japanese call girl and just gave her wings. Hell, give her some red skin or something. You don't have to make her repulsive to look at because we know how DOA rolls. It's still the WoW monster sexual dimorphism meme. But, push the envelope a little.

P4 is just there. Everyone acquiesces to her existence because of the long-standing story. I'm not gonna put forth energy advocating for or against her.

There's always going to be tropes, and it's not like some past characters were the height of creativity. It's hard to get away from stuff that hasn't already been done. And just because something is different doesn't mean it's good. But we can try to push for branching out and getting fresh ideas going forward, instead of just copying trends of what's popular for monetary reasons. And while it's not perfect to create a drab character and slap a new country on them, it's a step up from creating a drab character and having them be from Japan again. Look at that new character list you posted. 50+% from a single country (even if it weren't Japan) when it's supposed to be an international fighting tournament? Wut? lol

And it's not like our only choices are to create a plain-looking character from a new country/less used ethnicity or an awesome looking character from Japan. There are a lot of ways TN could go...if they wanted to...

 

[human013]

I "hate" them precisely because they're not different, ya weirdo. lol

Compared to what we'd typically gotten in DOA, maybe. That's why I mostly give Marie a pass.

So they are not different but they are also character types DOA never had before. Is that not what different means? lmao.

But, there's nothing unique or interesting about her look overall. Twin-tailed goth-loli? Come on, now. And then in personality, she's definitely not as interesting as she could be.

I can say the same. There's nothing unique to these characters too. In personality and outfit.

• Mila: Red head in generic fighting gear? C'mon.
• Rig: Generic white dude with a buzzcut in whatever you call his outfit. C'mon
• Phase: Kasumi in a bodysuit and rags? C'mon
• Nyo: Asian wearing a kimono seductively? C'mon
• Raidou: His entire existence. C'mon

Where are the pitchforks and the "These characters are ruining the game"? Or, "The Japanese are at fault for these characters"?

DOA characters in general do not ooze uniqueness or anything positive. They're bland and mute, neutral. They don't look bad but also not good. Have you ever seen crowds ever jump up in excitement for any DOA character? Ever seen people all over the place get excited for the characters? Yeah, me neither. The new characters are not that far off from DOA's standard.

The entire impetus behind Honoka as stated by the devs was "character with the largest boobs in the game" and "wears a school uniform as her default costume". So, uhh...despite the game not hurting for busty women and school uniforms being a thing since DOA1...that's what y'all got? Really? And also just has the name and hairstyle of another popular character named Honoka? And is literally an amalgam of other character's moves? And has the mannerisms of a 10-year-old, glass-cracking voice, and Marie's face? Failure. In every sense of the word.

Tits and uniform in DOA? What a shock!!! And you're really going to complain about her name and hair? Really?

• Kasumi
• Ayane
• Hayate
• Ryu
• Hitomi
• Tamaki

What is so unique about these character's names and their hairstyles then? You complain about copying Marie's face but where are the complaints for the copied faces on the other girls? TN created 15 unique individual faces for all the other girls but for Marie and Honoka they for some reason decided to swap faces? I'm really supposed to believe that?

NiCO is clearly to capitalize on Marie's popularity in a sense. And kind of gives off Rem from Re: Zero vibes. Even the hairpin is the same color. In terms of creativity, that's not super great for me.

Nico has lightning, teleports, blue hair, an actual unique outfit, that weird stance and finger thing she does and she is considered not creative, and warrants constant complaint and bashing. But characters like Rig, Mila, Phase, Tamaki, Diego, and Nyo are all so much more creative that they are acceptable. Their stances, outfits, hair, and everything else just has so much more creativity...

She just oozes with creativity. Look at her stance, gloves, top, and hair. I've never seen that before...

LMAO. That is what you are complaining about? That little clip in her hair?? It's been a while since I've seen the characters and this is the first time I actually compared them side by side but really???? That little thing?? LMAO wow. Is that not where hairclips usually go? Would it have been better if it was on Nico's right side? Only anime girls do this? I was expecting more lol. Something unique that was specifically only on Rem. Let's pray Rem never wear glasses because that would make Nico even more anime.

But I do think it's a missed opportunity to get a character from a region of the world we haven't explored yet (SE Asia) that comes with it new cultural signifiers, looks, and fashion.

When was this ever a big thing in DOA? What's the connection between Canadians and Rig's outfit? Or The Spanish people and Mila's outfit? British people dress up like Christie? DOA characters never gave off the impression that they were representing their home country.

Instead we got someone who was going to be Russian (we got that), and got changed to Finland, which is new. But, it's next door to Sweden.

Yeah, There's no difference between Finland and Sweden. No "new cultural signifiers, looks, and fashion" or anything. Just like how we should have gotten a different character instead of Rig. He's Canadian and Canada is just America's neighbor. Not the diversity we want right? Since we already have Tina, Bass, and Zack. American and Canadian? Same thing. I hope we don't ever get a Korean because we already have characters from China, and Korea is next to China. I also don't want characters from Southeast Asia because they are neighbors with China and we already have Jann and Leifang. No difference right? We need something new and neighboring countries offer nothing new.

Am I doing this diversity thing right yet?

Look, just stop lumping in everyone together. I've personally complained about Nyotengu being hilarious too safe of a design when she was revealed given what Bankotsubo and other Ninja Gaiden tengu had already been shown to look like. They literally took a Japanese call girl and just gave her wings. Hell, give her some red skin or something. You don't have to make her repulsive to look at because we know how DOA rolls. It's still the WoW monster sexual dimorphism meme. But, push the envelope a little.

P4 is just there. Everyone acquiesces to her existence because of the long-standing story. I'm not gonna put forth energy advocating for or against her.

There's always going to be tropes, and it's not like some past characters were the height of creativity. It's hard to get away from stuff that hasn't already been done. And just because something is different doesn't mean it's good. But we can try to push for branching out and getting fresh ideas going forward, instead of just copying trends of what's popular for monetary reasons. And while it's not perfect to create a drab character and slap a new country on them, it's a step up from creating a drab character and having them be from Japan again. Look at that new character list you posted. 50+% from a single country (even if it weren't Japan) when it's supposed to be an international fighting tournament? Wut? lol

This is like people complaining about DLC and Season Passes but continues to buy them regularly. Nyo and Phase are bad but it's fine. No need to get the pitchforks or blame Japan and anime. You guys don't want more Japanese characters but accept them with no issue. Then when it comes to Marie and Honoka, "Japan and anime are just ruining DOA" and everyone gets their torches and pitchforks. That is the only time Japanese characters are completely unacceptable without a thought even though only 1 is Japanese.

 

[candynarwhal]

While reading this thread and about the new characters like Marie Rose (she is not in my vanilla DOA 5 on ps3 as far as I know, probably DLC or FR character) I suddenly realize that TN put much more thought than I give credit for, specially if I take "jab at Sweden" that @candynarwhal mentioned into account:

Marie Rose come from the great nation of "The Russians are coming, no sexy for you and cultural appropriation is verboten".
Marie Rose' name is an internationalized, or appropriated, version of some variation of Ros-Marie.
Her fashion is either French or Japanese Gothic Maid which can be seen as a sexualized fetish cosplay.
Her style is one which has been mentioned in one larger newspaper in Sweden as having connections with "Russian spies and intelligence agency".
...
I guess if they added some quote in line with "Certainly I'm not a Russian spy but..." it would be to on the nose.
Great troll TN, would rage again!

I didn't realize "ryssen kommer" was such a widespread meme, lol - or are you also Swedish, @jusD?

In retrospect, all of this does add another layer of satire to Marie's character if it's accurate to their vision, but I don't know if I'm ready to give TN so much credit.

Diversity

• the state of being diverse; variety
• a range of different things
• the practice or quality of including or involving people from a range of different social and ethnic backgrounds and of different genders, sexual orientations, etc

You guys hate and complain passionately about Marie, Honoka, and Nico because they are different but I'm the one who is terrified? C'mon now. I'm sure the diversity you guys are talking about isn't really diverisity.

Case in point, you guys are completely fine complaining about Swedish and Finnish characters (there's are not many in DOA) and say they don't add to the diversity quota. Now, if they added a character from Nigeria or Iran and people complain like how you guys are when it comes to Swedish and Finnish characters... Oh no... They would be considered... Oohh no...

Certain nationalities/ ethnicities don't matter or count but others do. Yeah, TN needs to avoid you guys like the plague. You guys don't really want diversity. You guys want "Diversity".

[...]

No value to the story but is 100% ok

• Nyo
• Phase
• Momiji
• Rachel

No value to the story but is 100% not ok

• Marie
• Honoka

Yeah, me too. Was I suppose to care about Hitomi and whatever she was doing? Or Leifang wandering around fighting random people out of nowhere? Or whatever the hell Brad and Eliot were doing? They keep putting these boring ass characters on the stage as if they were interesting. Who cares about the tournament side of the story? Mila wants to meet Bass. Wow such an amazing and fleshed out story...

Everyone but the ninjas have been boring. Your beloved characters from DOA1-4 never made much impact overall back then so I don't know why you guys think removing these new characters would magically make your old characters better today.

Unless it is the right type of Japanese like Momiji, Nyo, and Tamaki...

Unless they are the stereotype you like, such as shrine maiden Momiji, Ara Ara Tamaki, Himedere Nyo, Dom Rachel...

DOA4

• Kokoro
• Lisa

DOA5

• Mila
• Momiji
• Rachel
• Phase
• Nyo
• Mai
• Tamaki

Want look at these "unique" bodies and repeat what you said? Especially the "That's been done now, so stop it" part? Or are average sized females with huge knockers fine no matter how many times they are repeated?

So much for variation/ diversity/ different, or whatever word you guys want to use.

I don't mind characters being from Sweden or Finland or wherever else despite not outwardly expressing these national identities - my issue doesn't lie with the arbitrary "Nationality" entry in their respective bios, lol, at least not so long as their physical appearance could reasonably (in the context of DOA being heavily stylized) pass for the nationality they represent. Anything more than that (like Hitomi wearing a dirndl, which has never been her first choice of clothing) is just icing.

I already said, the game doesn't try to pass off Nyo, Phase-4, Rachel or Momiji as important characters. That is why, despite their (lore-wise) lackluster inclusions, I don't mind them, because they're not being presented as something they're not. Marie and Honoka are the protagonists of DOA6, but they're about as fleshed out as the above four. That just doesn't work.

I'm not saying TN were masters of storytelling between 1996-2006, but now that the series has had a larger focus on story since DOA5, there's at least ten years before then of relatively nuanced character portrayals to draw upon. Instead of doing that, they've distilled the "legacy" characters down to singular, easily identifiable traits - and are telling their story using these versions of the characters. DOA6 wouldn't have been much better story-wise if Marie and Honoka weren't the protagonists, I'm not trying to argue that, but at least it wouldn't have felt so incredibly forced.

I don't think they should remove the new characters, but rework them to a point where they're more interesting, while at the same time reverting the old cast back to their DOA1-4 selves.

Momiji, Nyo and Tamaki are not 18, so you're correct, that would be the right type of Japanese character in this case. The fact that no female character (aside from Nyotengu, but as a supernatural being, she doesn't count) in DOA is over the age of 26 is a separate problem, but one that I would love to see adressed as well. Not that it really matters, because Helena will be characterized as a woman in her early-to-mid thirties, for example, regardless of what the number on her fighter card says - but still.

I'll give you Tamaki and Nyo, but Momiji as a shrine maiden stands out because, to my knowledge, Miko are not "supposed" to be fighters. Rachel is dressed as a Skinemax dominatrix, but this exterior belies a softer personality (which is not really seen in DOA, but having played NG, you would know this).

Okay, look. You keep trying to infer that I'm "woke," and that I must be a hypocrite because of my complaints (which you are jumping through all the hoops trying to interpret in favor of your arguments, lmao) - but I really don't care about body types. Marie Rose would still be a bad character if she had Tina's chest size. She is made worse by the fact that her chest size is half of her character (the rest we've heard of, but have yet to see), but at the end of the day, I have no problem with flat-chested characters in a series full of the opposite.

Hell, I mostly have a problem with Honoka, who fits the bill of a DOA girl perfectly in visual terms.

I just want characters that have more to offer than their outward appearance. Because every DOA girl up until Marie was, like, a F cup - there was nothing special about their tits, so they had to be memorable in other ways. Marie (moreso than NiCO) is memorable precisely because of her tits, as is Honoka (even though she's, you know, a G cup or whatever). That's what's wrong with them.

Again, NiCO isn't as much of a problem to me, because while she was definitely created to capitalize on Marie's popularity, her quote-unquote "loli" appearance is kind of incidental to her flat (no pun intended) personality. Which, yes, is as flat as any character's in DOA6, which is a larger issue.

All of this is a roundabout way for me to say that I want Itagaki back, but what else is new.

 

[Onryoki]

I didn't realize "ryssen kommer" was such a widespread meme, lol - or are you also Swedish, @jusD?

In retrospect, all of this does add another layer of satire to Marie's character if it's accurate to their vision, but I don't know if I'm ready to give TN so much credit.



I don't mind characters being from Sweden or Finland or wherever else despite not outwardly expressing these national identities - my issue doesn't lie with the arbitrary "Nationality" entry in their respective bios, lol, at least not so long as their physical appearance could reasonably (in the context of DOA being heavily stylized) pass for the nationality they represent. Anything more than that (like Hitomi wearing a dirndl, which has never been her first choice of clothing) is just icing.

I already said, the game doesn't try to pass off Nyo, Phase-4, Rachel or Momiji as important characters. That is why, despite their (lore-wise) lackluster inclusions, I don't mind them, because they're not being presented as something they're not. Marie and Honoka are the protagonists of DOA6, but they're about as fleshed out as the above four. That just doesn't work.

I'm not saying TN were masters of storytelling between 1996-2006, but now that the series has had a larger focus on story since DOA5, there's at least ten years before then of relatively nuanced character portrayals to draw upon. Instead of doing that, they've distilled the "legacy" characters down to singular, easily identifiable traits - and are telling their story using these versions of the characters. DOA6 wouldn't have been much better story-wise if Marie and Honoka weren't the protagonists, I'm not trying to argue that, but at least it wouldn't have felt so incredibly forced.

I don't think they should remove the new characters, but rework them to a point where they're more interesting, while at the same time reverting the old cast back to their DOA1-4 selves.

Momiji, Nyo and Tamaki are not 18, so you're correct, that would be the right type of Japanese character in this case. The fact that no female character (aside from Nyotengu, but as a supernatural being, she doesn't count) in DOA is over the age of 26 is a separate problem, but one that I would love to see adressed as well. Not that it really matters, because Helena will be characterized as a woman in her early-to-mid thirties, for example, regardless of what the number on her fighter card says - but still.

I'll give you Tamaki and Nyo, but Momiji as a shrine maiden stands out because, to my knowledge, Miko are not "supposed" to be fighters. Rachel is dressed as a Skinemax dominatrix, but this exterior belies a softer personality (which is not really seen in DOA, but having played NG, you would know this).

Okay, look. You keep trying to infer that I'm "woke," and that I must be a hypocrite because of my complaints (which you are jumping through all the hoops trying to interpret in favor of your arguments, lmao) - but I really don't care about body types. Marie Rose would still be a bad character if she had Tina's chest size. She is made worse by the fact that her chest size is half of her character (the rest we've heard of, but have yet to see), but at the end of the day, I have no problem with flat-chested characters in a series full of the opposite.

Hell, I mostly have a problem with Honoka, who fits the bill of a DOA girl perfectly in visual terms.

I just want characters that have more to offer than their outward appearance. Because every DOA girl up until Marie was, like, a F cup - there was nothing special about their tits, so they had to be memorable in other ways. Marie (moreso than NiCO) is memorable precisely because of her tits, as is Honoka (even though she's, you know, a G cup or whatever). That's what's wrong with them.

Again, NiCO isn't as much of a problem to me, because while she was definitely created to capitalize on Marie's popularity, her quote-unquote "loli" appearance is kind of incidental to her flat (no pun intended) personality. Which, yes, is as flat as any character's in DOA6, which is a larger issue.

All of this is a roundabout way for me to say that I want Itagaki back, but what else is new.

Itagaki would be great for the story writing, he’s definitely someone I prefer but I think we should get someone new who has the best interest for this series, knows how to write characters properly, knows how to balance gameplay, creative with DLC and has a spine. What made Itagaki so good was the fact that he was just like harada in the sense of that they do whatever they want and are unapologetic. It pisses me off how the current DOA team exists out of a bunch of spineless dick riders who can’t design, write or stick up for the game for shit.

@human013 Why are you so obsessed with defending Marie, Honoka and NiCO? They get hate because they’re little girls and anime tropes that are generally uninspired. Marie was cool back in 2013, but she became the blueprint for all these loli’s due to her popularity. Marie and Honoka are disliked because they were simply designed because loli’s are a rage in Japan.

People want more diversity in terms of Skin colours and sex. Many DOA players want more males and more people of different skin colours. I don’t see the issue in that, I don’t get why you seem to have an issue with more characters having melanin.

 

[jusD]

@candynarwhal Well, actually I am more of the "ryssen" in this case but after a couple of decades in the country and since I have taken the Stockholm subway, you can count me as one of Swedes. Haven't heard of specifically about "ryssen kommer" but the Swedish Russian scare is known in the north and of course Russian where most people just ask "Why would we invade the country of chocolate, cheese and banking?" and you have to explain "No, no the other S-country, the one next to Finland". But, kul med ännu en svensk som uppskattar tuttar och kampsport!

@Anura It took me some time to understand why you would even put that as NSFW... and then it hit me that she was naked in the shower. Probably the difference between more naturalistic depiction and one of todays "panty shot - chibi reaction - nose bleed" anime. Don't really like the way anime went from 80-90ies to today either.

And now back to life, back to reality...

So why are we complaining about Marie, Nico and Honoka then? And you just made an excuse to justify those clones' existence.

Kasumi alpha, Alpha-152, Phase 4. Want to start complaining about this? The clone literally lead to more clones.

No, no, what I am talking about is how almost twenty years after DOA3 I live in the world where those clones was not just some sloppy characters before "real" ones come in. I could stomach some cheapness@2006 when future for DOA looked bright but fourteen years later with how situation is for both anime and DOA, I am not as easy going. Just like I looked forward to Fallout in 3D but then we got Fallout 3 and that was... a thing. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

Good lord what is wrong with you people lmao. If it is stated that a character is something then they just are. Your opinion does not matter. What, so unless characters look a certain way they cannot be the ethnicity they claim to be?? We ok with stereotyping races/ ethnicity now? If you say you are Native American, can I say to your face that you don't look Native American and that you're not? If your skin isn't dark enough can I say you aren't African American? Lisa doesn't have an afro or cornrows so she isn't African American? You sure this is the hill you want to battle on?

Am I getting closer to this place's definition of diversity yet??

...
Because they are human. Is this a problem now?
...

Stop putting/Putin word in my mouth! I do understand that the scale goes from "Generic Humanoid" to "Stereotype and Caricature" but we can have some degrees of Leroy before it actually feels offensive. And for a person who write so much about popularity of characters when it comes to body types, you seem very quick to dismiss opinion of a fan. Given "death of the author", it is us customers and fans who decide if a character is good or bad, and if we perceive them as they are claimed to be.

View attachment 32116
She looks Japanese right?? When I go to Japan I'll find people like her right? I'll see Honoka, Hayate and Hayabusa too right? lol

The characters look boring. It's not complicated. Want an example? Look at people's reaction to the reveal of Guilty Gear Strive's characters and compare it to people's reaction to every DOA character. Who looks more interesting? Why is it that GG is able to make entire rooms scream and jump with joy, and make the internet go wild at the reveal of literally every character but DOA's character reveals get nothing? Not hard to see why at all.

Sure, the Japanese character probably don't look Japanese either. I would say that it is their fault because the characters in a lot of anime and JRPG don't look close to Japanese or Asian either. Witcher on the other hand does look euro-slavic. But that may be the reason for blandness of characters that I am seeing in DOA, everybody is so generic. It was okey in a couple of games but after awhile and some years I probably got more annoyed. Thats the reason why I don't complain about older games: nostalgia googles and freshness at the time compare to today.

Also, I don't play 2d anime fighters except mortal kombat. I sure have discs for both SF3 and GG for original xbox and then blazblue and SFIV for ps3 but then again I am not a learning animal. Both have quite diverse roster where characters feels different, interesting and alive but I always assume it is because unlike 3d fighters with tons of outfits you can easily keep consistency in 2d fighters dresses. Also, are you implying that GG/BB have no different body styles/forms? That is not really what I remember but then again they do use their clothing as part of the overall shape and form. But please, do tell why GG Strive is more anticipated than DOA except that one may have more die hard fans and more iconic characters?

Here are some easy examples.

• "Nico's blue hair is out of place and too anime". Look at the girl I posted.
• "Nico's lightning and teleportation is out of place". We have energy blasts from Ryu and Hayate, and teleportation from all the ninjas. We also got lightning from Genra.

If you say "X was never in/ doesn't belong in DOA" and I can find that exact thing in the previous games then you don't know the creator's vision. It's that simple.

Sure and Zack had anime hair (or Rodman/Snipes) but more of that is not what some people want. And while ninjas had "magic", giving it to everyone just makes cheapens the game for me. Yey, it is another SF/MK/Tekken clone with magical affects! But then again, did everyone have the same effect? If not, the creators vision is fuzzy on that one.

I literally quoted what you wrote my guy. And I went on what you wrote.

Lets break it down then. "Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster."
"Aren't popular to use" = no one wants the character, people will not buy it, no demand for it.
"is not the same as not needed for the roster" = but put the character in.

In what world does that make sense? In a fighting game especially? Why did TN not sell Alpha-152 as DLC but sold Momiji and Rachel as DLC? Alpha-152 is needed for the roster right? I don't know what world you live in but every fighting game in existence creates their roster with characters people like and want to use.

"Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster." Does he fit what you wrote? Is he popular? E. Honda is a pretty popular character with a legacy.

First: any proof that sumo/wrestler/large guys are highly unpopular? Because I gave you a couple games (VF5FS, SF, Tekken) where that is not the case. Or are you telling me that only things that are selling now is popular and if we have any kind of audience shift where DOA sumo character became popular are you just going to say "well, they were always safe because people by them and they were in other games"?

Second: Most games have A and B tier characters who are either cheap or a less popular. That does not mean that we just need to minmax roster where only top 10 most used/bought/played characters are left. How many play voldo in SC? How many use E. Honda? Is panda a must for Tekken and do we need zack/brad in DOA? Some weirdness and uniqueness is good for the roster.

Third: today, most moneys seems to come from waifu lovers so we sure know what to do with DOA if we just going to design by the trend. Hope you love gatcha tamogochi with bikini!

Ah, I see. So we are stereotyping. All Swedish people act the same and look the same. All Finnish people look the same. Yeah, I don't need that in my game.

Are you really denying something as basic as ethnic phenotypes? Like, really? And yes, there are russian who looks like americans and japanese who look like chinese but beside the obvious family tree, are you telling me that Marie Rose is Swedish because YOU and TN said so?! Have you even been here?

 

[human013]

I already said, the game doesn't try to pass off Nyo, Phase-4, Rachel or Momiji as important characters. That is why, despite their (lore-wise) lackluster inclusions, I don't mind them, because they're not being presented as something they're not. Marie and Honoka are the protagonists of DOA6, but they're about as fleshed out as the above four. That just doesn't work.

The story contained about 12mins Marie and Honoka and they were literally just a "save the hostage" side mission. Didn't the ninjas also have a mission to hunt down Rig? I could've sworn the story in DOA6 was about the ninjas tracking down an evil corporation, clones, and Raidou related projects. And it was the ninjas who fought the big bad at the end. You sure you're not imagining thing because of your hatred towards Honoka and Marie?

Lets say you watch a T.V show or something, like House M.D. Every episode has a new patient they focus on. Is that patient the protagonists now? House and his team are not the main characters anymore? Is Akuma the protagonist of Tekken now? I mean, they sure focused a lot on him right? Or was he just used to move the story along in Tekken? The story is no longer about the Heihachi and his family?

I'm not saying TN were masters of storytelling between 1996-2006, but now that the series has had a larger focus on story since DOA5, there's at least ten years before then of relatively nuanced character portrayals to draw upon. Instead of doing that, they've distilled the "legacy" characters down to singular, easily identifiable traits - and are telling their story using these versions of the characters. DOA6 wouldn't have been much better story-wise if Marie and Honoka weren't the protagonists, I'm not trying to argue that, but at least it wouldn't have felt so incredibly forced.

How do you determine what is forced? This is a story about ninjas doing inhuman things and we have a wrestling scientist from a beach game working for the bad guys. What was so convincing about Lisa that her becoming an evil scientist is perfectly acceptable? What did Rig even do in DOA5 and 6? He didn't matter but he was thrown into the story. He wasn't forced in?

Is adding Akuma into Tekken also forced? He got a backstory connecting him to Heihachi out of nowhere too.

Momiji, Nyo and Tamaki are not 18, so you're correct, that would be the right type of Japanese character in this case.

There is exactly one 18yo Japanese female in the game...

I'll give you Tamaki and Nyo, but Momiji as a shrine maiden stands out because, to my knowledge, Miko are not "supposed" to be fighters. Rachel is dressed as a Skinemax dominatrix, but this exterior belies a softer personality (which is not really seen in DOA, but having played NG, you would know this).

Rachel is still just a dom. Or does adding the adjective make her unique? Different types of maid and school uniforms exist. Does that factor in too? Or does it only apply to certain characters and certain fetishes?

Maids are fighters?
Schoolgirls are fighters?
Scientists are fighters?

At least where I live they are not.

Okay, look. You keep trying to infer that I'm "woke," and that I must be a hypocrite because of my complaints (which you are jumping through all the hoops trying to interpret in favor of your arguments, lmao) - but I really don't care about body types. Marie Rose would still be a bad character if she had Tina's chest size. She is made worse by the fact that her chest size is half of her character (the rest we've heard of, but have yet to see), but at the end of the day, I have no problem with flat-chested characters in a series full of the opposite.

lol what hoops? Like this hoop?

Like a few other people have already said, "diversity" in this case doesn't have much to do with political correctness or a lack thereof - but simply getting a character who isn't a Japanese 18-year-old girl with a template personality...

The last 18yo Japanese girl was Honoka and she was released in 2015. The other two 18yo are Marie and Nico who are officially not Japanese. And I'm the one jumping through hoops? Sure.

I just want characters that have more to offer than their outward appearance. Because every DOA girl up until Marie was, like, a F cup - there was nothing special about their tits, so they had to be memorable in other ways. Marie (moreso than NiCO) is memorable precisely because of her tits, as is Honoka (even though she's, you know, a G cup or whatever). That's what's wrong with them.

That

All of this is a roundabout way for me to say that I want Itagaki back, but what else is new.

and this seem to contradict each other. I look at his games and see the same things I see today but if you see something different then sure.

• Copied faces
• Same body type
• No "diversity"
• Tons of fanservice
• Bland designs. (Just look at the DOA4 costumes)
• Fetishes

Stop putting/Putin word in my mouth! I do understand that the scale goes from "Generic Humanoid" to "Stereotype and Caricature" but we can have some degrees of Leroy before it actually feels offensive. And for a person who write so much about popularity of characters when it comes to body types, you seem very quick to dismiss opinion of a fan. Given "death of the author", it is us customers and fans who decide if a character is good or bad, and if we perceive them as they are claimed to be.

Alright then. Show me the template for what an African-American, Latin-American, German, Swedish, and Russian person is suppose to look like. What do they need to have to be considered those things? Again, I'll quote you

Is Lisa really African-American and not Latin-American? Does Hitomi look German or Marie Rose look Swedish or Bayman Russian? Not to me they don't.

They don't look the part because why again?

First: any proof that sumo/wrestler/large guys are highly unpopular? Because I gave you a couple games (VF5FS, SF, Tekken) where that is not the case. Or are you telling me that only things that are selling now is popular and if we have any kind of audience shift where DOA sumo character became popular are you just going to say "well, they were always safe because people by them and they were in other games"?

C'mon my guy. If you cannot even read and understand what you yourself wrote then I'm just going to drop it here.

"Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster."

1. This is DOA we are talking about so DOA players need to like the character.
2. You explicitly state the character is unpopular
3. But, should still be added

Are you really denying something as basic as ethnic phenotypes? Like, really? And yes, there are russian who looks like americans and japanese who look like chinese but beside the obvious family tree, are you telling me that Marie Rose is Swedish because YOU and TN said so?! Have you even been here?

Yup, I do not want this kind of "diversity" in DOA. "Unless you look a certain way you can't be X or Y".

 

[GreatDarkHero]

I don't want to sound disrespectful.

But, to make a point, if folks are actually playing Dead or Alive or any other video game *exclusively* for pure realism or diversity in application of nonsensical current-year politics in a Japanese-made franchise full of genetically mutated clones, literal demons, powerful maniacs, or the like, it might be time to reconsider their hobby.
If you don't like DOA because of TN/KT's approach to representation or because the representation from a ethnicity and/or nationality isn't overly realistic or accurate (and *not* to the point of being too crazily stereotypical or insulting depending on what the objective of the character is) then that is either something folks will either have to deal with or don't play the game. Again, DOA isn't *exactly* a realistic series. There are more than a few realistic inspirations. But, it is definitely not a realistic series and judging a game based exclusively on that factor is just weird.
There are *going* to be a bit of accuracy and even some inaccuracies in a characters ethnicity and nationality and for as long as they don't come off as *too* ridiculous on both ends and that the game developers in charge don't backtrack on the established character later, it is inconsequential.

That means if Helena is from France? She is from France.

If Rig is from Canada? He is Canadian.

If Nyotengu is a demon of Japanese origin? She is a Japanese demon.

If Bass is a North American Caucasian? He is a North American Caucasian.

Marie Rose is Swedish? She is Swedish.

If Bayman is Russian? Guess what. He's Russian.

*Even* if they don't act or seem the part, this is what TN/KT chooses to do and it is *still* not that big of a deal. A characters ethnicity/nationality defines a part of the character. Not *all* of it. And, even then, this sort of thing is still meant to be more incidental anyhow.

Spoiler

And, to point out just a few more things that were said as of recent:

Mortal Kombat is *not* an anime fighting game and has very little to nothing to with anime in of itself.

And, there were plenty of fanservice anime back in the 80s/90s. To name a few of them, Urusei Yatsura, Plastic Little, Lupin III, Ramna 1/2, Bleach, earlier DB, Love Hina, Golden Boy, Ninja Scroll, Project A-KO, etc. In fact, many fanservice elements that people appear to despise (or love) that are common to *today's* anime trace back to these very same franchises from the 80s and the 90s. Many of these said elements were applied to DOA and by extension, many other fighting games either because it was incidental... or because it was actually a decent marketing procedure.

 

[jusD]

Alright then. Show me the template for what an African-American, Latin-American, German, Swedish, and Russian person is suppose to look like. What do they need to have to be considered those things? Again, I'll quote you

They don't look the part because why again?

As a Russian living most of my life in Sweden I can at least tell you that they don't look neither Russian or Swedish because I said so. That is it, because they just don't. The template are phenotypes most usual in the country of origin. You can continue with your speil but nobody cares, just like TN don't care of what either you or I think, and those who do know see that it just don't look right.

C'mon my guy. If you cannot even read and understand what you yourself wrote then I'm just going to drop it here.

"Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster."

1. This is DOA we are talking about so DOA players need to like the character.
2. You explicitly state the character is unpopular
3. But, should still be added

A) You claimed that those characters are unpopular out of your own ass
B) I state that even if those characters are unpopular today with the waifu audience, they stil have place in a fighting game because other fighting game seems to have them without a problem AND because the roster for a fighting game, not waifu game, will look more complete with them.
C) They could be added because of A and B. But also, since the game added both Rig, Lisa and Mila whom you think are generic (which they are) so we can add even more characters that you don't like because you don't understand the creators vision. Pff, robots and power armor suits, whose idea was that?

Yup, I do not want this kind of "diversity" in DOA. "Unless you look a certain way you can't be X or Y".

Sure, or maybe try actually looking like the style or countries you represent. Would love for a Phillipine silat fighter and someone using muay thai who actually looks like Buakaw. Or maybe instead creating memorable character but neither seems to happen right now.

@GreatDarkHero Sure, DOA was never realistic in its representation but if every fighter feels off, they will feel off. Shitty implementation is stil shitty no matter what creators think.

Also, MK was more of 2D fighter and less anime that I mentioned on what and why I don't know character roster of other games. And sure, some animes had "fan service" at the time but most of the more serious one didn't make it childish. Now, every anime is more or less that. But sure, Tag Team is unwanted by players and is not part of creators vision so just take it out! Have fun with your fanbase, TN.

 

[GreatDarkHero]

@GreatDarkHero Sure, DOA was never realistic in its representation but if every fighter feels off, they will feel off. Shitty implementation is stil shitty no matter what creators think.

Also, MK was more of 2D fighter and less anime that I mentioned on what and why I don't know character roster of other games. And sure, some animes had "fan service" at the time but most of the more serious one didn't make it childish. Now, every anime is more or less that. But sure, Tag Team is unwanted by players and is not part of creators vision so just take it out! Have fun with your fanbase, TN.

Then play another franchise where you don't have to worry about that sort of thing as much. Or, better yet? Make your own video game franchise and see how well it does with your ideas in mind. You might generate some good sales and a nice fanbase. Or, you may not.
As I said before, if TN/KT's approach towards representation angers you that much and if this is all that you're really worried about for a game (not anything else), then why bother playing DOA?

And, the Mortal Kombat mainline games has been a 2D fighting game since its conception. The only exceptions lie in the 3D era (Deadly Alliance, Deception, Armageddon, and even vs DC Universe). And, to speak more about the fanservice, I don't know what you mean by "childish."
You mean "slapstick?" Or, played for "comedic" value in context of its own franchise or the anime category? Because, if that's the case, all of those factors are *still* in MANY 80s/90s anime series, in the very same ones I mentioned and even those that weren't even meant to have anything to do with the ecchi/fanservice genre.

 

[candynarwhal]

@candynarwhal Well, actually I am more of the "ryssen" in this case but after a couple of decades in the country and since I have taken the Stockholm subway, you can count me as one of Swedes. Haven't heard of specifically about "ryssen kommer" but the Swedish Russian scare is known in the north and of course Russian where most people just ask "Why would we invade the country of chocolate, cheese and banking?" and you have to explain "No, no the other S-country, the one next to Finland". But, kul med ännu en svensk som uppskattar tuttar och kampsport!

Haaaa, go figure! För min del så väntar jag fortfarande på att snubbarna ska få ta del av fenomenet "jiggle physics" (#BaymanGiveMeABlackEyeChallenge), ärligt talat, men den dagen lär väl komma förr eller senare...

The story contained about 12mins Marie and Honoka and they were literally just a "save the hostage" side mission. Didn't the ninjas also have a mission to hunt down Rig? I could've sworn the story in DOA6 was about the ninjas tracking down an evil corporation, clones, and Raidou related projects. And it was the ninjas who fought the big bad at the end. You sure you're not imagining thing because of your hatred towards Honoka and Marie?

[...]

How do you determine what is forced? This is a story about ninjas doing inhuman things and we have a wrestling scientist from a beach game working for the bad guys. What was so convincing about Lisa that her becoming an evil scientist is perfectly acceptable? What did Rig even do in DOA5 and 6? He didn't matter but he was thrown into the story. He wasn't forced in?

Is adding Akuma into Tekken also forced? He got a backstory connecting him to Heihachi out of nowhere too.


There is exactly one 18yo Japanese female in the game...


Rachel is still just a dom. Or does adding the adjective make her unique? Different types of maid and school uniforms exist. Does that factor in too? Or does it only apply to certain characters and certain fetishes?

[...]

lol what hoops? Like this hoop?

The last 18yo Japanese girl was Honoka and she was released in 2015. The other two 18yo are Marie and Nico who are officially not Japanese. And I'm the one jumping through hoops? Sure.


That

and this seem to contradict each other. I look at his games and see the same things I see today but if you see something different then sure.

• Copied faces
• Same body type
• No "diversity"
• Tons of fanservice
• Bland designs. (Just look at the DOA4 costumes)
• Fetishes

Well, and there was also the whole reason Honoka got kidnapped - because of course she's related to the ninjas, because that gives her a reason to be part of the overarching story. Never mind that she's the object, more than the subject, of said story...

Again, my point is that there is more to the ninjas as characters than there is to Honoka. If she had the same level of depth and agency that they have, we wouldn't be having this conversation, because I'd have nothing to complain about.

You keep zeroing in on the "Japanese 18-year-old female" thing. Has it dawned on you yet that I've been talking about a trend in character design, more than the on-paper age and nationality of these characters? I don't think I'm being very pedantic, so I'd appreciate if you weren't either.

In the heavily stylized context of DOA, Rachel's outfit is as out-of-place as anything else. It's just what she wears, like how Leifang wears her cheongsam and five-inch heels, or Hitomi wears her sneakers and denim jacket. That's all fine. I don't have anything against Marie's gothic lolita getup or Honoka's school uniform either, just the fact that these outfits are the extent of their shown personality. Rachel isn't characterized as a dominatrix. Honoka is characterized as a schoolgirl. There's the difference. NiCO is admittedly less guilty of this particular problem.

I promise I'm not contradicting myself. What I'm saying is that because all of Itagaki's female characters looked the same, in terms of body type (and facial features, sure, back when the games were more anime-esque) and catering to different tastes, shall we say - they had to stand out from each other in other ways.

Marie, Honoka and NiCO stand out from the rest of the female cast because of their body types. I'd prefer if they had interesting personalities or other quirks about them that didn't specifically have to do with them being "diverse" because they have tits that are a different size.

Again, again, I'm not really arguing for diversity in the sense that you're insisting. I ultimately don't really care what new DOA characters are going to look like (white, black, big tits, small tits, male, female, whatever), I just want them to be endearing on more than a surface level.

I want to be sold on a character not because they're the token loli or anything else, but because they bring something new and worthwhile to the cast.

Tastes differ on what that means though, as we've seen.

 

[human013]

As a Russian living most of my life in Sweden I can at least tell you that they don't look neither Russian or Swedish because I said so. That is it, because they just don't. The template are phenotypes most usual in the country of origin. You can continue with your speil but nobody cares, just like TN don't care of what either you or I think, and those who do know see that it just don't look right.

Country of Origin: USA
Simple question. Which one looks American and why?

lol why aren't you answering my other question? Here is what you said,

"Is Lisa really African-American and not Latin-American? Does Hitomi look German or Marie Rose look Swedish or Bayman Russian? Not to me they don't".

What do they need to look the part?

Simple question, do all Russians look like this? No one is bigger? No one is smaller? No one has hair with a different color?

A) You claimed that those characters are unpopular out of your own ass

Show me where I wrote that.

Sure, or maybe try actually looking like the style or countries you represent. Would love for a Phillipine silat fighter and someone using muay thai who actually looks like Buakaw. Or maybe instead creating memorable character but neither seems to happen right now.

Yeah, I hope TN never implements your idea of "Diversity"

• (USA) Zack: Muay Thai (Thai)
• (Canada) Rig: Taekwondo (Korean)
• (Germany) Hitomi; Karate (Japanese)
• (Sweden) Marie: Systema (Russian)
• (Spain) Mila: MMA (mixed)
• (UK) Christie: She quan (Chinese)
• (France) Helena: Pi Gua Quan (Chinese)
• (Finland) Nico: Pencak Silat (South East Asia)

Well, and there was also the whole reason Honoka got kidnapped - because of course she's related to the ninjas, because that gives her a reason to be part of the overarching story. Never mind that she's the object, more than the subject, of said story...

You might just need to stop playing fighting games if that is your complaint.

• DOA5 and 6: Rig the evil henchmen and sleeper agent. Of course they had to make him related to the ninjas because that gives him reason to be part of the overarching story.
• SC4: New character Algol the original weilder of the soul swords. Because of course right? So forced.
• SC4: New character Hilde. She lost her country (or king?) to souledge. Of course they had to make her related to souledge to make her matter to the story. And she pardoned Siegfried too I think. Forced right?
• SC6: New character Groh has a connection to Souledge and Kilik
• Tekken 6: Miguel has a connection to Jin because of course he had to. His fiance got killed by Jin's aerial strike or something. Random right?
• Tekken 7: Akuma: Has a connection to Heihachi.

You keep zeroing in on the "Japanese 18-year-old female" thing.

Because that is what you wrote.

Has it dawned on you yet that I've been talking about a trend in character design, more than the on-paper age and nationality of these characters? I don't think I'm being very pedantic, so I'd appreciate if you weren't either.

The trend that ruined DOA. All DOA does now is churn out Marie clones right? And today we have a grand total of 3 in the roster.

• 2013 was Marie
• 2015 was Honoka
• 2019 was Nico

Lets go with the reality you created then. In 7 years all we got from TN were Marie clones who are 18yo Japanese girls. The current roster is the vanilla DOA5 roster plus Marie, Honoka, and Nico minus a few.

I want to be sold on a character not because they're the token loli or anything else, but because they bring something new and worthwhile to the cast.

I want this to. Just not in the way some people here want.

 

[werewolfgold]

So they are not different but they are also character types DOA never had before. Is that not what different means? lmao.

Don't be stupid. I choose to believe you're smarter than this, so I can only conclude you're operating in bad faith. They should avoid bringing in characters that look like carbon copies of characters from other franchises.

Tits and uniform in DOA? What a shock!!! And you're really going to complain about her name and hair? Really?

• Kasumi
• Ayane
• Hayate
• Ryu
• Hitomi
• Tamaki

What is so unique about these character's names and their hairstyles then? You complain about copying Marie's face but where are the complaints for the copied faces on the other girls? TN created 15 unique individual faces for all the other girls but for Marie and Honoka they for some reason decided to swap faces? I'm really supposed to believe that?

See above. You can't be serious with this shit. I didn't say "Hurrrr, how dare Honoka have a Japanese name." If too many coincidences line up, it begins to be a problem. TN knew that a Love Live character with the exact same hairstyle named Honoka existed. Don't pretend like they didn't. And you say "what a shock" like my complaint wasn't that Honoka lacks in originality. Yes. That's the problem. They created a character around attributes that they already used a bunch of times.

Also, a very common complaint with DOA is samey-faces. Everyone makes jokes about the DOA girls being interchangeable. And after they went to lengths to make the character's look less anime, it was especially noticeable when it came to Marie and Honoka. Straw that broke the camel's back, if it were.

Nico has lightning, teleports, blue hair, an actual unique outfit, that weird stance and finger thing she does and she is considered not creative, and warrants constant complaint and bashing. But characters like Rig, Mila, Phase, Tamaki, Diego, and Nyo are all so much more creative that they are acceptable. Their stances, outfits, hair, and everything else just has so much more creativity...

I don't believe I spoke to the acceptability of those characters besides Nyo and P4.

LMAO. That is what you are complaining about? That little clip in her hair?? It's been a while since I've seen the characters and this is the first time I actually compared them side by side but really???? That little thing?? LMAO wow. Is that not where hairclips usually go?

So...you're really doing this, huh? After she gets decked in the face, first seen in her reveal trailer, her hair turns exactly into Rem's. Even with one eye being covered. It's not subtle.

Yeah, There's no difference between Finland and Sweden. No "new cultural signifiers, looks, and fashion" or anything.

Didn't say that, but TN use any of these signifiers? No? STFU. You're literally talking out of both sides of your mouth. Do you care about characters resembling where they come from or no?

I said that Finland being next to Sweden only causes more of a direct comparison to Marie which hurts NiCO's case in terms of standing out. If NiCO didn't give off Marie vibes, then it wouldn't have mattered if she was Finnish. An easier way to get away from Marie would be to have her be SE Asian since it'd be unlikely she'd look like Marie if that were the case, they wanted to use pencak silat anyway, and yes, with the added bonus of a character being from a part of the world not in the game yet.

Nyo and Phase are bad but it's fine. No need to get the pitchforks or blame Japan and anime. You guys don't want more Japanese characters but accept them with no issue. Then when it comes to Marie and Honoka, "Japan and anime are just ruining DOA" and everyone gets their torches and pitchforks. That is the only time Japanese characters are completely unacceptable without a thought even though only 1 is Japanese.

WTF are you even saying? lol

You're deleting any and all context for anything. People wanted the Tengu moveset back and no one cares about P4. It's a literally clone. She doesn't ruin anything because the game has been about clones since DOA2. Marie and Honoka don't have that luxury.

And really, the big elephant in the room, why Marie, Honoka, and NiCO get more pushback than anyone else is because they look like children. TN is trying to have their cake and eat it too where they create characters clearly meant to look super young while saying "don't worry, they're 18, so we can put them in whatever suggestive situations and outfits imaginable and no one can ban us. Gotcha!" You can get away with that maybe once, but you can't make that a habit. How many times are you gonna put in 4'10" girls with babyfaces and claim they're 18? That's a very "Japanese (otaku)"/"anime" sensibility that does kind of ruin things. lol

And then they want to give them center stage in marketing? The backlash was very foreseeable.

 

[human013]

Don't be stupid. I choose to believe you're smarter than this, so I can only conclude you're operating in bad faith. They should avoid bringing in characters that look like carbon copies of characters from other franchises.

I cannot tell these characters apart at all...

Oh wait, that hair pin on Nico!! She's Rem!!!.... I guess that's why Nico is pointing to it.

Who is supposed to be Marie's original? Or are you mad about Marie's design being based on something popular?

I also cannot tell the difference between these two. Ninja, same shirt thing, waist wrap, and most important of all; the ponytail and hairband located at the back of their heads. Indistinguishable.

So...you're really doing this, huh? After she gets decked in the face, first seen in her reveal trailer, her hair turns exactly into Rem's. It's not subtle.

So we're using extra hair options and not the default to make a point now? I'll play that game too. Marie and Honoka gets punched and their hair is down now, or Honoka wears her hair in a ponytail. Marie is not a twintail gothic maid now and Honoka no longer has love live Honoka's hair style.

See above. You can't be serious with this shit. I didn't say "Hurrrr, how dare Honoka have a Japanese name." If too many coincidences line up, it begins to be a problem

It's just a name to reference a character my guy. You going to flip out over Jann Lee who is just Bruce Lee? Or is that fine because its not an anime reference?

Didn't say that, but TN use any of these signifiers? No? STFU. You're literally talking out of both sides of your mouth. Do you care about characters resembling where they come from or no?

I do not.

I said that Finland being next to Sweden only causes more of a direct comparison to Marie which hurts her case in terms of standing out. If NiCO didn't give off Marie vibes, then it wouldn't have matter if she was Finnish. An easier way to get away from Marie would be to have her be SE Asian since it'd be highly unlikely she'd look like Marie if that were the case, and they wanted to use pencak silat anyway.

This is the first time I've ever seen someone use a character's nationality like that. One girl is bright blue and the other is blonde but lets look at the countries they are from... You guys are something else lol.

WTF are you even saying? lol

I can't help you if you can't understand that.

 

[werewolfgold]

Who is supposed to be Marie's original? Or are you mad about Marie's design being based on something popular?

There are a few twin-tailed lolis I could point to, I guess. I've long since forgotten their names. But that says something on its own. It's an archetype that's very common in anime. I'm "mad" that Marie doesn't have more that makes her stand out, but to say that I'm even mad isn't that correct. The only character I'm actually mad at is Honoka. lol

It's just a name to reference a character my guy. You going to flip out over Jann Lee who is just Bruce Lee? Or is that fine because its not an anime reference?

We all know that Kasumi was based on Mai and that Jann is Bruce, and Zack is Rodman, Bass is Hogan, etc. etc. But, I believe that I said going forward, we should be hoping for something not as readily comparable. Standards have indeed increased since 1998. Doing things like that isn't going to help the DOA's characters stand out, is it?

Why, if I knew of a popular character named Bruce who is rich and broody and goes around fighting criminals in a costume at night, would I create a character named Bruce who is rich and broody, but fights criminals in the morning? Or at least I wouldn't do so expecting no one to say anything about it. lol

This is the first time I've ever seen someone use a character's nationality like that. One girl is bright blue and the other is blonde but lets look at the countries they are from... You guys are something else lol.

Country of origin is just one aspect among many that can set characters apart. And that can be used as a gateway to designs or attributes that we haven't gotten 1000 times before. It's a pretty simple concept. Does the country in itself mean that it will be a good character design? No. Can we still get interesting characters without taking the country into consideration? Sure. But TN looks like they need some help. It's a suggestion. A place to start.

I can't help you if you can't understand that.

I understand perfectly and that's the problem. You don't parse any nuance whatsoever and everything is a whataboutism.
"Oh, you say you want diversity, but this character is diverse in a few ways and you don't like it?!?! Oh, you complain that we got another Japanese character, but what about the Japanese character before that one that they added, HMMMMM????? Did you complain then?!?!?! I SMELL HYPOCRISY!!!!!!!! NiCO just looks reminiscent of Rem and doesn't look EXACTLY like her unless you punch her in the face! CHECK. MATE."
None of this is compelling. You're not that deep, dude. lol

I said there are reasons why Nyo and P4 didn't get as much pushback. And it's telling you chose not to respond to that. But, this next part I added in as an edit after the fact, so I'll repeat it.

The big elephant in the room, why Marie, Honoka, and NiCO get more pushback than anyone else, is because they look like children. TN is trying to have their cake and eat it too where they create characters clearly meant to look super young while saying "don't worry, they're 18, so we can put them in whatever suggestive situations and outfits imaginable and no one can ban us. Gotcha!" You can get away with that maybe once, but you can't make that a habit. How many times are you gonna put in 4'10" girls with babyfaces and claim they're 18? That's a very "Japanese (otaku)"/"anime" sensibility that does kind of ruin things. lol

And then they want to give them center stage in marketing? The backlash was very foreseeable. Some people don't like the direction that TN is taking if that's going to be what the focus is going forward. Nyo is more accepted because at least she doesn't look like a child and at least she's there for people that missed Bankotsubo. Tamaki is more accepted because at least she doesn't look like a child. But that "acceptance" doesn't exactly equate to "well-liked" or "couldn't be any better" overall.

So, yeah. People want diversity in the roster. But, it's not surprising that they don't mean characters that look and act like little girls in a game that spends an inordinate amount of effort focusing on how sexy the women are and how much the boobs jiggle.