Do you want to see more diversity in DoA's character designs?

[KwonJigglypuff]

Video games should not incorporate religious topic because the writing is not good enough to offer an adequate knowledge on the subject. Especially DOA story mode. And burqa is a religious item. So I can't see burqa in a DOA game. What Phase 4 is wearing is not a burqa nor a niqab.

@MC625
The burqa is banned (for safety and political reasons, to modernize the country). However, the Islamic law in Iran requires women to wear a scarf in the streets. So you're definitely right, it is true some are still protesting and getting arrested. In private, at home or on social medias, they can be as slutty as they want...!

Now, this is how I picture an Iranian female in DOA (for sure TN will never have the balls to do it but let's dream). Based on the fact that the Iranian government built an all-female ninja-army (back in 2012), we can assume they can fight.

Sultana - 23 years old
Soldier - hired by DOATEC to bring peace
Fighting style : pahlevani & zourkhaneh ("heroic sport") - it combines martial arts, gymnastics, submission-grappling and music (tombak drum). So basically it's defensive wrestling with a rythmic stance and a lot of spirituality (one of the oldest and most ethic sport in the world).

Costumes :

As she travels around the world, she could wear more revealing outfits than the ones I chose. I just like the fashion used on these pictures, because for me, femininity doesn't mean being skimpy.

 

[KasumiLover]

Banned? what? people are free to wear anything they like here but it should not be too revealing. (should obey what quran says)
I think it was 10 years ago, people were arrested for wearing revealing outfits but now government is not as sensitive as then.


Correct


but I think like 90% in middle east are Muslim so we can assume 90% that's true.
but not all Iranians live in Iran. some live in US, some live in Europe so maybe we can have an Iranian that lives outside Iran.


isn't phase-4 default costume like that except for her face being covered?


it's as wrong in a fighting games as bikinis or high heels. how can someone fight in something like that? but hey DOA is not that realistic so whatever.

Actually it's possible to fight in high heels, women do it all the time even if it's not easy. There's also women who have no problems fighting in them let alone running in them, and in a fighting game it actually makes sense in certain cases since hers are actually lethal, Kasumi wears hers in her new default and with her kicks and her one stomp 4T throw, it'll cause alot of damage xD

And bikinis I agree with but its game, if Kokoro can wear her geisha kimono and 6 inch geta and if Nyo can fight in her outfit with no issues, no outfit is really much a sretch imo

 

[MC625]

The burqa is banned (for safety and political reasons, to modernize the country). However, the Islamic law in Iran requires women to wear a scarf in the streets.

oh god I confused burka and hijab again. yes I have never seen anyone wearing a burka myself (only in movies) but hijab or scarf is on the person herself which one they want to wear.

So you're definitely right

I am right my friend, trust me nothing's better seeing something personally yourself everyday.

it is true some are still protesting and getting arrested.

government is still sensitive about it but not as much as 10 years ago. at those dark times there were vans full of people arrested for inappropriate outfits. but I can say we are fortunately passing those times.

Sultana

better choose a Persian name if she's going to be Iranian. Farsi is a mix of Persian and Arabic but a Persian name will help to indicate she's Iranian.

Actually it's possible to fight in high heels, women do it all the time even if it's not easy. There's also women who have no problems fighting in them let alone running in them, and in a fighting game it actually makes sense in certain cases since hers are actually lethal, Kasumi wears hers in her new default and with her kicks and her one stomp 4T throw, it'll cause alot of damage xD

I know but it's hard to fight in them. if we are going for realism high heels should be easier to slip in cause it's hard to maintain balance in.

And bikinis I agree with but its game, if Kokoro can wear her geisha kimono and 6 inch geta and if Nyo can fight in her outfit with no issues, no outfit is really much a sretch imo

You shouldn't search for realism in a game about ninjas and clone maker scientists.

What Phase 4 is wearing is not a burqa nor a niqab.

but it's just a little less covering than a hijab.
----------

so that discussion aside I would like to see more characters with beauty marks.
we had Naotora (on her breast), we have Nyotengu (on her chin) and now Tamaki (below her right eye).
I think one between lips and a cheek is beautiful.

 

[Onryoki]

Correct


but I think like 90% in middle east are Muslim so we can assume 90% that's true.
but not all Iranians live in Iran. some live in US, some live in Europe so maybe we can have an Iranian that lives outside Iran.


isn't phase-4 default costume like that except for her face being covered?


it's as wrong in a fighting games as bikinis or high heels. how can someone fight in something like that? but hey DOA is not that realistic so whatever.

There’s still 10% that’s not Muslim. I don’t think religion should play any role in fighting games. A Middle Eastern character would be very welcome in DOA, we got too many Japanese characters.

I don’t think swimsuits are wrong, I just think that they look weird on stages that aren’t beaches.

 

[jusD]

I don't see how this is tenable. Gender and nationality would factor into how a character is fleshed out to begin with. Otherwise, you get stuff like Marie Rose, which is just an anime trope with "Swedish" slapped on the label. Hell, Marie Rose isn't even a Swedish name. lol

Well, technically Rose-Marie, Ros-Marie, Rosemarie and Rosmarie are names used in Sweden although usually from much older generation. So you could claim that her actual name is one of those but she changed it/use a stage name because her original is not cool enough. Same for her persona which could be explained by female otaku/cosplayer with love for japan.

Nothing original and not nearly "Swedish" but then again I don't have any knowledge of the character because she wasn't in DOA 3 & 2U and I didn't by DLC for my DOA 5 (not the LR edition).

It could add mystery to the woman but what fighting style would a character like that use? Also outfits would be kinda limited and definitely no bikinis!

There are probably a lot original, native martial arts from the region but if you want some more kung fu you got Kung Fu Ta'o. The Iranian version of south and north Shaolin kung fu. So yeah, it could work.

 

[human013]

Oh god I forgot about this thread. Please, for the love of god TN, do not implement any of these ideas. There is so much focus on identity politics and forced diversity. It's a huge red flag when the character's ethnicity is the main thing people focus on. Catering to the Japanese fanbase is infinitely better than all the ideas on this site.

I would rather take characters like Kasumi, Ayane and Nico who are interesting due to their designs than a boring "diverse" character who's only good trait is that she is not __________(insert race here). Take the Iranian character for example, the outfits chosen are boring as hell but it's good because she's Iranian? If any of the current girls wore outfits as boring as those all you guys would be bashing the hell out of them. Many of the "good" designs I've seen here are like that. Like having basic boring outfits on a black person with an afro or something and that is taken as something amazing.

Implementing identity politics into DOA because western fans can't think about anything other than race will be the worst thing ever.

 

[jusD]

Oh god I forgot about this thread. Please, for the love of god TN, do not implement any of these ideas. There is so much focus on identity politics and forced diversity. It's a huge red flag when the character's ethnicity is the main thing people focus on. Catering to the Japanese fanbase is infinitely better than all the ideas on this site.

I would rather take characters like Kasumi, Ayane and Nico who are interesting due to their designs than a boring "diverse" character who's only good trait is that she is not __________(insert race here). Take the Iranian character for example, the outfits chosen are boring as hell but it's good because she's Iranian? If any of the current girls wore outfits as boring as those all you guys would be bashing the hell out of them. Many of the "good" designs I've seen here are like that. Like having basic boring outfits on a black person with an afro or something and that is taken as something amazing.

Implementing identity politics into DOA because western fans can't think about anything other than race will be the worst thing ever.

While CURRENT_YEAR is certainly full of forced, empty diversity where changes do nothing for gameplay and story, are you really telling that nationality has no place in fighting games? One of the most memorable things about SF2 was the world map with fighters from exotic places using exotic martial arts. Big plus if fighters have a least one gi/uniform from said martial art so you can recognize it, even if it's somewhat customized. That's like one of the staples of fighting games!

Now DOA was never really that hanged up about fighters having same nationality as their style but that just means that we can get diversity from fighting style + body type. The body types has been more problematic (no, not in CURRENT_YEAR way) for DOA because lot of dudes and dudettes look almost same if you just take their silhouette. Doesn't mean their is a strong need for plus sized fighters and schoolchildren but some variety would be nice.

Now, because it is in fact CURRENT_YEAR, some questions could arise from certain people: should only fighters be able to use their national arts to avoid cultural appropriation or would that count as segregation of (kicking and punching) culture? Thankfully the answer is simple: nobody cares about those people and they don't buy or play fighting games!

 

[human013]

are you really telling that nationality has no place in fighting games?

Show me where I wrote that.

One of the most memorable things about SF2 was the world map with fighters from exotic places using exotic martial arts. Big plus if fighters have a least one gi/uniform from said martial art so you can recognize it, even if it's somewhat customized. That's like one of the staples of fighting games!

Too bad DOA is not SF. Both games have different aims and creators. Just because something exists does not mean it needs a racial quota, which is something people here love to push.

Now DOA was never really that hanged up about fighters having same nationality as their style but that just means that we can get diversity from fighting style + body type. The body types has been more problematic (no, not in CURRENT_YEAR way) for DOA because lot of dudes and dudettes look almost same if you just take their silhouette. Doesn't mean their is a strong need for plus sized fighters and schoolchildren but some variety would be nice.

You guys love to complain about that but your actions prove otherwise. There are 12 female characters with the body type you guys all love and have no complaints about (Ayane, Kasumi, Christie, etc) and 3 characters with the body type you guys love to complain about (Marie, Honoka, Nico). Lets look back at how certain characters were received.

1. Marie Rose: The first new body character and the character people complain about the most.
2. Nyotengu: Same body as all the other old girls but with wings. No complaints about wanting more diverse bodies. People love her.
3. Honoka: Second small girl but thicker in certain areas, a.k.a different body type. She is hated and the existence of her and Marie makes DOA a loli fighter somehow. Body type becomes a real issue all of a sudden but only this body type though.
4. Phase-4: A literal clone of another character but somehow has less or no complaints. Meanwhile, Honoka's "copied face" receives endless complaints.
5. Momiji: Same body as the old girls and no complaints about body type.
6. Rachel: Same as Momiji.
7. Mai: Same as Momiji.
8. Nico: Third small body girl and complaints rain in about body types not being diverse among other complaints.
9. Kula: Small body is bad and DOA is a legitimate loli fighter.
10. Tamaki: ...

TN literally created new body types and you guys complained like the new body type outnumbered the old body type. Then you guys complain about wanting different body types but are perfectly fine with characters that have the same body type as the old girls. What exactly do you guys even want? What constitutes body diversity?

• Fat characters like Bob? Last I checked fat characters aren't popular.
• Same muscular bodies but just larger for the males? That is just taking an existing body and changing it's size, similar to what they did to Marie and you guys hate that.
• Disproportioned bodies like Fahkumram or Jack? That's "anime" and not realistic which you guys hate with a passion.

There is not much you can do to a body that has what people consider the ideal look. And, silhouette has more to do with outfit and pose than body type. See Jin, Law, Kazuya, Lars, Paul, Steve, etc. Many characters in Tekken, females included, have the same body type but do not suffer the same issues DOA has. Body type is not the issue. The boring character design is.

 

[jusD]

Show me where I wrote that.

Too bad DOA is not SF. Both games have different aims and creators. Just because something exists does not mean it needs a racial quota, which is something people here love to push.

Ok, so you got nothing against different nationalities in fighting games. What about ethnicities? Because otherwise I can't really see how you have a problem with an Iranian character, other than it having bad design and shoved in just for some misguided representation.

DOA is certainly not SF but that was just a prime example. Tekken, SC, VF, MK and DOA had a lot of diversity when it came to characters origin like nationality and ethnicity. DOA 6 had Diego so it seems like an Iranian fighter would fit right in with what creators intended.

Technically speaking one could create a much more diverse fighting game based completely in Japan. Where is enough difference in environment from Hokkaido to Okinawa to give us a lot of stages, enough martial arts, both native and imported which are practiced, to fill the whole roster and some more and the only thing left is to use some imagination when creating characters background. Could be nice, there probably already is some kind of 2d anime fighter just like that, but now you potentially lose recognition from international players. Not because you need to adhere to some political agenda but because some players love to se some part of themselves in the game: "Oh, look my country is in there! That dude uses same style I train! She looks just like me!".

You guys love to complain about that but your actions prove otherwise. There are 12 female characters with the body type you guys all love and have no complaints about (Ayane, Kasumi, Christie, etc) and 3 characters with the body type you guys love to complain about (Marie, Honoka, Nico). Lets look back at how certain characters were received.
...
TN literally created new body types and you guys complained like the new body type outnumbered the old body type. Then you guys complain about wanting different body types but are perfectly fine with characters that have the same body type as the old girls.

While you are correct about Marie, Honoka and Nico the problem is probably combination of "underaged girl looks" + "highly sexualized fighting game". Can't speak for anybody else but that would be my problem. Didn't like the addition of Eliot in DOA4 either but that was a much, much less sexualized time when the "Whatever, anything goes!" attitude from the 90ies was stil alive. Today is just a different time

Also, the super lightweight schoolgirl is nice and all, but where are women who at least looks like they are over 25? Or looks like they do indeed even lift. Or skinny dudes with long hair and questionable gender, which would also be a staple for Japanese anime and games? They wouldn't fit in UFC or K1 but we already have super ninjas vs oni-tengu-robot-clone-devilish jeans and aikido or bagua works instead of... not so why not include him as well?

What exactly do you guys even want? What constitutes body diversity?

• Fat characters like Bob? Last I checked fat characters aren't popular.
• Same muscular bodies but just larger for the males? That is just taking an existing body and changing it's size, similar to what they did to Marie and you guys hate that.
• Disproportioned bodies like Fahkumram or Jack? That's "anime" and not realistic which you guys hate with a passion.

There is not much you can do to a body that has what people consider the ideal look. And, silhouette has more to do with outfit and pose than body type. See Jin, Law, Kazuya, Lars, Paul, Steve, etc. Many characters in Tekken, females included, have the same body type but do not suffer the same issues DOA has. Body type is not the issue. The boring character design is.

Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster. The game world fills richer and the fighting tournament fills more like classical kung fu movie tournament with different types instead of just the bikini team and their dads. Also there is a line between Andre the Giant or Choi Hong-Man look-a-like and Jack/True Ogre/Kuma when it comes to realistic looks. Bob would for me be a great exempel of unrealistic or unbelievable looks: he looks heavy but apparently not to gravity or his knees.

And while silhouette is indeed a function of style (stance, footwork etc) and body type (implementations of movements by a specific body) instead of just body type, the outfits only work if the design is consistent in usage which doesn't work in a game with over 9000 clothes.

 

[human013]

DOA has;

• Japanese
• American
• Russian
• Chinese
• British
• French
• German
• Italian
• Swedish
• Spanish
• Finnish
• Canadian
• Whatever Rachel is

And here is SC6 for reasons...

What about ethnicities?

What about it? Am I suppose to like a character because of their ethnicity? What makes or breaks a character is their ethnicity? Sorry but I don't play video games for identity politics. That is not on my list of requirements when I look for games or characters to play.

DOA 6 had Diego so it seems like an Iranian fighter would fit right in with what creators intended.

You guys can't even accept DOA for what it is but you claim to know what fits into DOA and the creators intent? No.

Technically speaking one could create a much more diverse fighting game based completely in Japan. Where is enough difference in environment from Hokkaido to Okinawa to give us a lot of stages, enough martial arts, both native and imported which are practiced, to fill the whole roster and some more and the only thing left is to use some imagination when creating characters background.

Go make your game then. That is your vision and goal. It's as simple as that.

Not because you need to adhere to some political agenda but because some players love to se some part of themselves in the game: "Oh, look my country is in there! That dude uses same style I train! She looks just like me!".

I cannot understand why it is so hard for people here to understand that creators are not thinking about them when they create something. They have their own idea and they can do whatever they want with it. Just because you think you are important does not mean you are.

Is Tamaki an issue because she is a Japanese character targeted towards Japanese fans in a game made by Japanese people? Japanese people can also say, "Oh, look my country is in there! That dude uses same style I train! She looks just like me!". Or does this not count?

While you are correct about Marie, Honoka and Nico the problem is probably combination of "underaged girl looks" + "highly sexualized fighting game". Can't speak for anybody else but that would be my problem. Didn't like the addition of Eliot in DOA4 either but that was a much, much less sexualized time when the "Whatever, anything goes!" attitude from the 90ies was stil alive. Today is just a different time

You need to actually look back at the series and maybe drop DOA if those things are issues to you because the things you are complaining about existed back then too. I don't like the gore in MK, do I complain about it and demand change or just not play the game?

Also, the super lightweight schoolgirl is nice and all, but where are women who at least looks like they are over 25? Or looks like they do indeed even lift. Or skinny dudes with long hair and questionable gender, which would also be a staple for Japanese anime and games? They wouldn't fit in UFC or K1 but we already have super ninjas vs oni-tengu-robot-clone-devilish jeans and aikido or bagua works instead of... not so why not include him as well?

Do you really want the answer? Because you won't like it. It is because the creator does not want it. It's that simple.

Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster. The game world fills richer and the fighting tournament fills more like classical kung fu movie tournament with different types instead of just the bikini team and their dads. Also there is a line between Andre the Giant or Choi Hong-Man look-a-like and Jack/True Ogre/Kuma when it comes to realistic looks. Bob would for me be a great exempel of unrealistic or unbelievable looks: he looks heavy but apparently not to gravity or his knees.

So why would they be needed? To fill your diversity quota?

And, go play Tekken 7 or SC6 with the guys shirtless and the girls in bikinis and tell me how they aren't just "the bikini team and their dads". Also, show me these body types you are talking about. Jackie chan, Bruce Lee, Donnie Yen, Jet Li, Chuck Norris, among others don't look that different in terms of body types. The only one who comes to mind that has a different body type is Sammo Hung.

 

[jusD]

I don't really like necroing a thread and then spamming it with mostly OffT replies but it does irk me how today the fighting games, which always have been very diverse with their "fighters from all over the world compete against each other", are drag in to this polarized debate about diversity. One side screams "it must look like America 2020 or it's a nazi game", the other "diversity is just evil politics" and after a decade most gamers should've realized that the enemy of our enemy is not our friend and can be equally wrong.

DOA has;

• Japanese
• American
• Russian
• Chinese
• British
• French
• German
• Italian
• Swedish
• Spanish
• Finnish
• Canadian
• Whatever Rachel is

And given how a lot of Americans are in fact minorities (Zack, Lisa, Diego) you have proven to us ones and for all that "Creator's vision" for DOA has always been about diversity of nationalities and ethnicities... [ /thread ]

And here is SC6 for reasons...
View attachment 32028

Sure, but given how SC is or at least feels like quasieuropean gothic sword fantasy it looks ok. Also fighters in that game are from Japan, Holy Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire/Greece, Kingdom of Denmark-Norway, French Empire, Spanish Empire, Korea, Italy, Philipinnes, British Empire and Ming Empire so seems legit.

What about it? Am I suppose to like a character because of their ethnicity? What makes or breaks a character is their ethnicity? Sorry but I don't play video games for identity politics. That is not on my list of requirements when I look for games or characters to play.

Good for you but that was not the question. Are you ok with inclusion of different ethnicities in a fighting game or should they all look like your SCVI screenshot? Also most of us kids from the 90ies didn't love fighting games diversity because of some politics but because it was either cool to see new, exotic places and faces or because you could play "yourself".

You guys can't even accept DOA for what it is but you claim to know what fits into DOA and the creators intent? No.

You have clearly showed, with your list of nationalities, that creators intent is completely inline with the request in this thread so what's the problem?

Go make your game then. That is your vision and goal. It's as simple as that.

You once again missed the point. Here I was partially agreeing with you that ethnicity, nationality and countries doesn't need to be the only ways to get diversity in a game. Heck, given DOA we could put all cast as American without changing much or removing any of them. American ninjas vs American evil corporation and American Eagle Tengus.

I cannot understand why it is so hard for people here to understand that creators are not thinking about them when they create something. They have their own idea and they can do whatever they want with it. Just because you think you are important does not mean you are.

Is Tamaki an issue because she is a Japanese character targeted towards Japanese fans in a game made by Japanese people? Japanese people can also say, "Oh, look my country is in there! That dude uses same style I train! She looks just like me!". Or does this not count?

Creators of entertainment media don't think about their customers?! Yeah, sorry but most of this games are not some kind of Open Sourced one man indies but a "By suits, For profits" products. And given how creators and designers of DOA, which you speak so highly about, do include different characters to appeal to different target demographics, you point becomes quit weak.

Also, nobody wants to remove Japanese characters from Japanese games, just add some different flavour to it given how this is not a "only Japanese allowed" game. How are you even talking about, who wants to remove Tamaki?

View attachment 32029

You need to actually look back at the series and maybe drop DOA if those things are issues to you because the things you are complaining about existed back then too. I don't like the gore in MK, do I complain about it and demand change or just not play the game?

Cute, but by todays DOA costume standards those pictures are quite tame. From my memory, the DOA 3-2U-4 weren't as "in your face" about sexualization as the Extreme series. Sexy dresses and swimsuit was just a part of all the costumes. A lot of material were more from promotions, trailers and so on, just like most games, game media and game culture of the time (I remember pictures of booth babes and models in my PC magazine, it was more innocent time). Now I just need to go to DOA reddit to enjoy "mai waifu and fan """service""" " on every page.

Do you really want the answer? Because you won't like it. It is because the creator does not want it. It's that simple.

Sure, but the original creator is gone and new ones seems to not really know what they want with their "I am a fighter...but in a skimpy bikini... but a fighter" attitude. Some could say it is a part of Japanese gaming culture where preteen heroes and geniuses are saving the world and 25-year old hags just don't listen to them, which in itself feels like a way to break from strict societal hierarki based on occupation and age but i digress and it's not my area of expertise.

So why would they be needed? To fill your diversity quota?

Can you stop? Really, stop importing the twitter activist discourse to gaming. They are needed for a to fill "wow, look at all this different fighters from all over the world who looks sexy/cool/wacky and all seems different"-quota, just like in most other fighting tournament in fiction.

And, go play Tekken 7 or SC6 with the guys shirtless and the girls in bikinis and tell me how they aren't just "the bikini team and their dads". Also, show me these body types you are talking about. Jackie chan, Bruce Lee, Donnie Yen, Jet Li, Chuck Norris, among others don't look that different in terms of body types. The only one who comes to mind that has a different body type is Sammo Hung.

Because reputation is working for them and against DOA. Just like a liar will always be mistrusted even when he tells the truth and stoped lying ages ago, the DOA will always be heavy criticized for things which exist in other games. So we could as well accommodate more characters types to play dress up fighting with.

Also, yes. You are correct that a lot of action actors do in fact look alike. Maybe because they are actors who need for more than one role, or because the need for stunt doubles or just because. Also, even if we put JCVD, Tony Jaa and Iko Uwais they would all stil look more or less the same regarding the body type just with slightly different heights.

Instead look at early UFC and K1 "freak show" matches to find actually diverse fighters. Or maybe look at Baki, Kenichi and Kengan Ashura. Or Wrestling.

 

[human013]

And given how a lot of Americans are in fact minorities (Zack, Lisa, Diego) you have proven to us ones and for all that "Creator's vision" for DOA has always been about diversity of nationalities and ethnicities... [ /thread ]

There is a difference between what you believe their vision is and what their vision actually is. Otherwise this thread would not exist and there would not be complaints like, "There are too many Japanese characters" or, "It's too anime" or, "It doesn't fit in DOA". Again, read the title of this thread... If DOA "has always been about diversity of nationalities and ethnicities..." then why would we need more??

Do you go into Tekken or SF and demand more diversity too? DOA was always about diversity like those games right?

Good for you but that was not the question. Are you ok with inclusion of different ethnicities in a fighting game or should they all look like your SCVI screenshot? Also most of us kids from the 90ies didn't love fighting games diversity because of some politics but because it was either cool to see new, exotic places and faces or because you could play "yourself".

Your question itself is a prime example of why you guys need to be ignored by TN. There is so much focus on ethnicity that everything turns to ethnicity this and ethnicity that. BTW the SC roster was praised as being way better than DOA's roster by people here so.... And why should I, and other people, care about people who think like you? I don't want to see you in my game just because you want to be.

Stop thinking about yourself for 1 second here.
There are more people in the world than just you guys. There are 90ies kids all over the world who "didn't love fighting games diversity because of some politics but because it was either cool to see new, exotic places and faces or because you could play "yourself"". Their thoughts don't matter because they are the wrong ethnicity? Your thoughts should be more valuable because of your ethnicity?

You have clearly showed, with your list of nationalities, that creators intent is completely inline with the request in this thread so what's the problem?

Right, just like how DOA never had fanservice, sci-fi elements, magic, anime hair colors, or extremely young girls.

Creators of entertainment media don't think about their customers?! Yeah, sorry but most of this games are not some kind of Open Sourced one man indies but a "By suits, For profits" products.

Seems like you can't understand this so I'll give you an example. Marvel is popular worldwide. In Black Panther where are all the other ethinicities? Were the producers thinking about Asians, Iranians, Cambodians, or anyone else when they made the movie? How about the Godzilla movies? Where are all the Mongolians and the Czech people? They are customers too but were they considered?

And given how creators and designers of DOA, which you speak so highly about, do include different characters to appeal to different target demographics, you point becomes quit weak.

When did I say otherwise? Please show me.

Which point is weak? "I cannot understand why it is so hard for people here to understand that creators are not thinking about them when they create something. They have their own idea and they can do whatever they want with it. Just because you think you are important does not mean you are."

TN added Nico and you guys hate her. Who are the customers again? TN added more fanservice costumes. Who are the customers again? Look at Nyotengu. She is obviously Japanese in design but western fans exist...

Cute, but by todays DOA costume standards those pictures are quite tame. From my memory, the DOA 3-2U-4 weren't as "in your face" about sexualization as the Extreme series. Sexy dresses and swimsuit was just a part of all the costumes. A lot of material were more from promotions, trailers and so on, just like most games, game media and game culture of the time (I remember pictures of booth babes and models in my PC magazine, it was more innocent time). Now I just need to go to DOA reddit to enjoy "mai waifu and fan """service""" " on every page.

If you say so.

Sure, but the original creator is gone and new ones seems to not really know what they want with their "I am a fighter...but in a skimpy bikini... but a fighter" attitude. Some could say it is a part of Japanese gaming culture where preteen heroes and geniuses are saving the world and 25-year old hags just don't listen to them, which in itself feels like a way to break from strict societal hierarki based on occupation and age but i digress and it's not my area of expertise.

Sounds like the old creator too. He wanted DOA to be a serious fighter but also created the DOAX series. He didn't even know what he wanted. A serious fighter but with insane jiggle physics and a beach game on the side. Ayane and Kasumi outrunning organizations and defeating veteran clan leaders... Kasumi not obeying her clan and did things to make her a runaway ninja.... Teens participating in a tournament with adults... I too will digress because this is not my area of expertise.

Can you stop? Really, stop importing the twitter activist discourse to gaming. They are needed for a to fill "wow, look at all this different fighters from all over the world who looks sexy/cool/wacky and all seems different"-quota, just like in most other fighting tournament in fiction.

Did you get lost while reading? If you read it properly you'll see that I was responding to your body type comment...

Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster.

The body types don't need to be popular or used but they need to be in because... why???

Because reputation is working for them and against DOA. Just like a liar will always be mistrusted even when he tells the truth and stoped lying ages ago, the DOA will always be heavy criticized for things which exist in other games. So we could as well accommodate more characters types to play dress up fighting with.

Also, yes. You are correct that a lot of action actors do in fact look alike. Maybe because they are actors who need for more than one role, or because the need for stunt doubles or just because. Also, even if we put JCVD, Tony Jaa and Iko Uwais they would all stil look more or less the same regarding the body type just with slightly different heights.

Instead look at early UFC and K1 "freak show" matches to find actually diverse fighters. Or maybe look at Baki, Kenichi and Kengan Ashura. Or Wrestling.

How about fix the obvious problem instead of blaming something else? DOA characters are boring visually and it is not because of the body type.

 

[jusD]

@human013 I will stop my insane wall of text and instead condense my points, if that is ok with you:

1. Body types, like ethnicities, are simple tools to get more diver... more variation in a fighting game roster so it would fill more alive and fun. There is a reason why people complain about palette swaps. I would personally say that martial arts and fighter archetypes would be more useful and should be first choice. But given how the roster of DOA still looks bland compared to some, but not all, other fighting games I dare say that maybe there is a need for more parameters to work with. And even if some fighters are unpopular (in matchers? at home? for costume dlcs?) they stil give the game some flavour, even if only as background characters you never use. Would Super Smash Bros. be better with "No items, fox only, final destination"? If not, where should the line be drawn between who should be in and who shouldn't?
2. Another reason for a variety in fighters is because there are many things that can attract players besides gameplay. Some find their waifu, some find their perfect representation of Bruce Lee, some find their countrymen ("or women" said in monty python voice) and some find their styles and some find their lookalikes. I don't think you seem to have a problem with people finding these things if they already exist in the game, so is it a problem if they wish for these features? Most of things listed in this thread don't seem as ridiculous as a little kung fu boy before DOA4 or a winged man ("or women") before DOA2 and 5.
3. Why is it wrong for fans of the game to raise questions and comment on "creators vision"? Should any change made by brand owner be welcomed because they have legal right to it? And from what point in a series lifecycle is that vision solidified so we can all go back to that entry, check if future changes in series go against it and just say "Nah, this was not in DOA 1-2-3 so take it out". Sure, complaining or wishing doesn't mean that anybody in charge will listen but your stance on these matter seems a bit strange. Do you mean that this discussion are pointless in the long run because TN don't read this forum or are you just saying that all discussion should be verboten?
4. Just because it is CURRENT_YEAR doesn't mean that anybody mentioning body types, ethnicities or desexualization is a part of twitter activists. Sure, some would love to just scrape the whole genre because sex=bad, fighting=bad, athletes=bad or at least would love to insert these things because of some agenda. But others could stil want to discuss these things because they are, and have always been to some degre, a natural part of these game and genre. My starting game DOA 3 was the most tamest one of the bunch, can't really remember anything shocking in DOA2U either and preferred when anything to extreme went to the... Extreme series. Sure, now that fighting games lost a lot of steam and Extreme series are a more sure way to get the company its money because there are more audience for that, I do understand why the game is like it is. I also can understand that they would love to eat the cake and have it too by also getting the mystical "eSport" audience while keeping the waifu whales. But me voicing my opinions on what have happened with my favorit series is not some kind of activism to insert todays politics into it, they are just my opinions. And diversity in this thread is not necessary same as diversity on twitter.

But thanks to you I do realize that maybe I should give VF5 a chance. Didn't like it at the time and preferred more casual fighting games but if I want DOA without boobs and magic maybe I should just go for that instead. Looks like a new one might come out soon and it will certainly not have any F2P DAY1 DLC and incomplete roster... certainly.

 

[Anura]

My starting game DOA 3 was the most tamest one of the bunch

Spoiler: NSFW

The franchise has changed in tone over the years. The older games had fanservice similar to Chung's shower scene in the SF2 movie (just before she gets assaulted by Vega and proceeds to tear him a new one, lol). The way I see it, it's a Basilisk/Ninja Scroll versus Senran Kagura debate at this point.

Regarding the "dev's vision for the franchise" argument, since we are talking about a commercial product, I see no harm in expressing our expectations. It's not like we are sending them death threats or lobbying Japan's national diet over this (yet).

 

[candynarwhal]

Like a few other people have already said, "diversity" in this case doesn't have much to do with political correctness or a lack thereof - but simply getting a character who isn't a Japanese 18-year-old girl with a template personality...

The reason people have been okay with the likes of Nyotengu and Tamaki, out of all the new female fighters, is because there's a precedent in DOA for that type of character.

Same thing goes for Rachel and Momiji, or even Phase-4. Rachel and Momiji are essentially legacy characters, while Phase-4 is a Kasumi clone, which is a familiar concept.

By comparison, Marie Rose was created to hang a lampshade on the way Dimensions was taken off shelves in Scandinavia (most prominently in Sweden), and that is the core idea and motivation behind her character - all of that "wicked little servant" nonsense is window dressing.

Honoka was created because the Japanese fanbase, predictably, responded really well to Marie - but wanted her to have the Jell-o oppai DOA is so famous for. Fair play, if only she had a personality based in anything other than nonverbal mewling.

And because the Japanese fanbase responded really well to Marie, we got NiCO in DOA6, who is another Scandinavian character (complete with a stupid Final Fantasy-esque costume in the Finnish flag's colors, lest you forget) with a small chest and diminutive appearance. At least she has a motivation to be present for the story, and some aspects of a personality - but one that is explicitly based on an anime trope.

There's just no creativity on display, anymore. You could argue that the Nyotengu, Tamaki, Rachel, Momiji and Phase-4 aren't particularly creative designs either, but aside from Phase-4 and perhaps Nyotengu (by virtue of being a Bankotsubo gender-swap) - perhaps they don't break new ground, and hence are not so creative in that respect, but visual variety (in terms of body type, anyway) was never the draw of DOA either.

People flocked to DOA's characters because of their strong personalities. Marie, Honoka and NiCO do not have strong personalities - but the others, comparatively, do.

That's not to say that the other characters aren't tropey in their own ways - but TN didn't rely on tropes to shape their characterizations until Dimensions, really. There's a difference between, for example, Hitomi in DOA3/4 and Hitomi in DOA5/6 - but her 3/4 personality is still there in her 5/6 incarnation, only less pronounced, with more of a focus on generic likeability than self-expression.

One is an endearingly earnest young woman, with a quiet self-confidence, who really wants to win the tournament - while the other is a childish klutz, lmao (and in that way, at least some kind of foil to Kokoro's clueless klutz), who happens to really want to win the tournament.

3/4 Hitomi was a childish klutz too, don't get me wrong, but this came out moreso in the Xtreme games, where it was contextually appropriate for her to be more relaxed.

 

[Anura]

And because the Japanese fanbase responded really well to Marie, we got NiCO in DOA6, who is another Scandinavian character (complete with a stupid Final Fantasy-esque costume in the Finnish flag's colors, lest you forget) with a small chest and diminutive appearance. At least she has a motivation to be present for the story, and some aspects of a personality - but one that is explicitly based on an anime trope.

While NiCO is a spin on the young prodigy and adults are useless tropes, at least a few of her lines in DOA Quest enhance the character. I remember reading "Hypocrites like to wear justice as a mantle" (or something like that) after completing one quest of the quests related to Helena. That's the kind of comment a teenager would make. Also, the slap at the end of the story mode was a nice touch. We might see some character development in the future if they don't go for a reboot instead.

 

[candynarwhal]

While NiCO is a spin on the young prodigy and adults are useless tropes, at least a few of her lines in DOA Quest enhance the character. I remember reading "Hypocrites like to wear justice as a mantle" (or something like that) after completing one quest of the quests related to Helena. That's the kind of comment a teenager would make. Also, the slap at the end of the story mode was a nice touch. We might see some character development in the future if they don't go for a reboot instead.

I really don't mind NiCO so much, because she at least has a backstory, and like you're saying, the DOA Quest lines do elaborate on her character a bit more than the plot of DOA6 did.

The problem, really, is that the DOA6 plot focuses on its two protagonists, Marie and Honoka, without giving either of them more context than their inclusion as DLC characters in DOA5 did - Marie being a satellite character to Helena as her servant, and Honoka having contrived powers that of course must mean she's related to the ninjas, so that she has a part to play in the overarching story.

The thing about Honoka is that she isn't even interested in her own powers, they're just kind of there, and she has no personal motivation for being present. She likes to fight, sure, but what's ostensibly important about her is only remarked upon by other characters, which makes her presence anywhere outside of the tournament kind of pointless.

You could replace her with an inanimate object (like an amulet containing Raidou's essence or something) and the story would still go the same way...

Marie is at least heavily stylized, and her non-story characterization goes beyond "I'm cute and I have tits" - not that the gothic lolita look is very imaginative, but if they'd wanted to, TN could have easily expanded on her waxing poetic before fights, or this informed attribute of being darkly mischievous (like if Helena had expressly asked her to not get involved, but then she did anyway, maybe because she has a bit of a sadistic streak, or she doesn't like Helena acting like she knows what's good for her).

They're just not interested in that kind of thing, because what's already here is working to sell fetish DLC. Shame.

 

[human013]

There is a reason why people complain about palette swaps.

If you want to talk about palette swaps DOA has legit clones in multiple games but I don't see you guys complaining about the Kasumi clones. There are more complaints about the "varied" new characters than the palette swaps. This says a lot about what you guys mean when you bring up variation and diversity.

But given how the roster of DOA still looks bland compared to some, but not all, other fighting games I dare say that maybe there is a need for more parameters to work with.

It doesn't take much digging to see why that is and it has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, or body type.

And even if some fighters are unpopular (in matchers? at home? for costume dlcs?) they stil give the game some flavour, even if only as background characters you never use.

You were the one telling me how businesses operated. Is an unpopular character going to sell as DLC or sell a game? The answer is simple.

Why is it wrong for fans of the game to raise questions and comment on "creators vision"? Should any change made by brand owner be welcomed because they have legal right to it? And from what point in a series lifecycle is that vision solidified so we can all go back to that entry, check if future changes in series go against it and just say "Nah, this was not in DOA 1-2-3 so take it out". Sure, complaining or wishing doesn't mean that anybody in charge will listen but your stance on these matter seems a bit strange. Do you mean that this discussion are pointless in the long run because TN don't read this forum or are you just saying that all discussion should be verboten?

Nothing is wrong with it. People just need to actually look at the game first before talking about the "creator's vision".

Just because it is CURRENT_YEAR doesn't mean that anybody mentioning body types, ethnicities or desexualization is a part of twitter activists.

Look at the Iranian character example and what you wrote about the body type. You wrote, "Aren't popular to use is not the same as not needed for the roster." Doesn't get anymore obvious than that. A roster should have characters people want to use. Not send a message.


@jusD Do you want to know why I made those lists for the DOA characters' nationality and people's reaction to the DLC characters? Look at these here

Like a few other people have already said, "diversity" in this case doesn't have much to do with political correctness or a lack thereof - but simply getting a character who isn't a Japanese 18-year-old girl...

The DLC and new characters since DOA5;

• Mila
• Rig
• Momiji (Japanese)
• Rachel
• Marie
• Phase-4 (Japanese)
• Nyotengu (Japanese)
• Raidou (Japanese)
• Honoka (Japanese and 18)
• Mai (Japanese)
• Diego
• Nico
• Kula
• Tamaki (Japanese)

What did the quote above read again?

The reason people have been okay with the likes of Nyotengu and Tamaki, out of all the new female fighters, is because there's a precedent in DOA for that type of character.

Same thing goes for Rachel and Momiji, or even Phase-4. Rachel and Momiji are essentially legacy characters, while Phase-4 is a Kasumi clone, which is a familiar concept.

Now read the first quote from candynarwhal above again. Where is the diversity in body type, ethnicity, and personality in these acceptable characters?

By comparison, Marie Rose was created to hang a lampshade on the way Dimensions was taken off shelves in Scandinavia (most prominently in Sweden), and that is the core idea and motivation behind her character - all of that "wicked little servant" nonsense is window dressing.

An actual new body type, nationality, and personality but not the correct type of diversity unfortunately.

Honoka was created because the Japanese fanbase, predictably, responded really well to Marie - but wanted her to have the Jell-o oppai DOA is so famous for. Fair play, if only she had a personality based in anything other than nonverbal mewling.

Look at the list of the new characters since 5. Do you ever wonder why people here never complain as much about characters like Mila or Rig or Phase-4? Those 3 are as boring as Honoka but no one complains as much.

And because the Japanese fanbase responded really well to Marie, we got NiCO in DOA6, who is another Scandinavian character (complete with a stupid Final Fantasy-esque costume in the Finnish flag's colors, lest you forget) with a small chest and diminutive appearance. At least she has a motivation to be present for the story, and some aspects of a personality - but one that is explicitly based on an anime trope.

No complaints about Rig or his outfit and tattoos (have you actually seen his tattoos) but Nico is just the worst. She has an anime personality unlike Ayane who is a tsundere or Kokoro who is the typical anime airhead. But no complaints about Tamaki's personality? She acts pretty anime to me. "Ara Ara" anyone?

Also notice how people here rarely ever complain about Mila, Rig, or Nyotengu's role in the story?

Do we really want diversity? Or do we want "Diversity"

 

[candynarwhal]

Oh, boy.

Again. It's not about diversity in the way that you keep implying, and are clearly terrified of, sis.

I mean, they might put another black character in DOA, but at this rate, that'll be when the ganguro trend gets revived in Japan and that becomes the en-vogue thing, lmao (which I would love, by the way).

Maybe not all of the 18-year-olds introduced to the franchise since 2013 (with the release of DOA5U) have been Japanese, I'm sorry for making that heinous factual error. I'm sure you got the point of what I was saying, all the same. They're the new poster girls, but they don't deserve to be.

For what it's worth, I think Rig is an incredibly boring character. The only reason he exists is so that the story can have a bad guy. I don't think Mila is much better, but she at least has a personality independent of her status as the #1 Bass Armstrong stan in the world, lol, in that she "inherited" Hitomi's bright-eyedness and competitive attitude.

(Mila has barely any story involvement, which is why you're not hearing anyone complain about that)

Kokoro was never characterized as an "anime airhead" until Dimensions. Ayane always had shades of tsundere in her, sure, but this didn't come to the forefront until Dimensions either. It wasn't until Dimensions that she was all torn-up and going to kill herself because Hayate favored Kasumi over her.

If a tsundere was all she ever was, where was this scene, or an equivalent, in the original DOA1-4?

What I'm saying is that if TN as it exists currently, without Itagaki, can't create compelling stories with these cut-and-paste characters (or characters reduced to a single easily identifiable trait, like Kokoro or Ayane) - then I'd at least like some variety in the roster, so there's a silver lining to the whole shitshow.

By all means though, if they want to redeem Marie, Honoka and NiCO by motivating their presence and writing them in 3D instead of 2D, I'll be the first person to cheer them on!

I just don't think they're going to do that, because people like you are happy with things as they are...

I'm not as bothered about other characters like Nyotengu, Phase-4, Rachel or Momiji, because they are (currently) irrelevant to the DOA story, and I doubt they'll be included in any meaningful sort of way, anytime soon.

What I have a problem with, is one-dimensional characters being put center stage as if they're at all interesting:

Marie happily does whatever Helena asks her to, but she's supposed to be the "wicked little servant." Honoka didn't know what was going on for the entirety of DOA6's runtime, but somehow she was still the main character (and her cluelessness was never the point). NiCO is comparatively fine, but I do wish her visual design wasn't so on-the-nose - which I'll admit is a separate problem, but still.

TN have been putting these characters in the limelight, but they have nothing to give. That's the issue.

They can keep doing that, if that's what sells, but then I want new female characters that are not 18, not Japanese, and who do not correspond completely to a stereotype visually or otherwise. Along with some new male characters. Just, anything to keep me entertained while they keep milking these paper cutout characters who supplanted the original trio of Kasumi, Leifang and Tina overnight, for no good reason.

We don't need another barely-legal female character who either has the largest boobs in the series or is a pettanko. That's been done now, so stop it.

 

[Anura]

Marie is at least heavily stylized, and her non-story characterization goes beyond "I'm cute and I have tits" - not that the gothic lolita look is very imaginative, but if they'd wanted to, TN could have easily expanded on her waxing poetic before fights, or this informed attribute of being darkly mischievous (like if Helena had expressly asked her to not get involved, but then she did anyway, maybe because she has a bit of a sadistic streak, or she doesn't like Helena acting like she knows what's good for her).

They're just not interested in that kind of thing, because what's already here is working to sell fetish DLC. Shame.

Yeah, I got the impression that Marie Rose was going to be an edgier or morally ambiguous character at some point (like DOA4-5 Lisa), but they chose to make her more vanilla so that people would like her more.