Competitive balance: DOA5U mechanics changes
- Thread starter Berzerk!
- Start date
Forced Techs add a much needed layer of offensive pressure to the oki game. Without Forced Techs, you'd have to deal with that stupid wake-up kick mix-up everytime. Ironically I think that dealing with wakeup attacks slows down the gameplay more than implementing Forced Techs.
Having throw escapes for all throws undermines the triangle system. Connecting throws in DOA is not the same as connecting throws in other 3D fighters. Throws have 0 priority over strikes and are beaten out easily. Punish throws are not intended to be fuzzy guarded. Throw breaks would just undermine throws even more.
By CH, do you mean Counter Hit damage or Hold damage? There's nothing wrong with the counter hit damage, but yes, I like DOA5's nerfed holds.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
If the entire system got reworked to balance it out that would be fine, but this guy just wants throw punishment eliminated which is bad.
Well Not to derail much but you could just make it So you can't throw break if the throw connects while you are in recovery or when It's high counter.
The throw system is the same as vf only vf doesn't give modifiers of throw damage based on the opponents current state. It does allow throw breaks for punishment as well.
The throw system is the same as vf only vf doesn't give modifiers of throw damage based on the opponents current state. It does allow throw breaks for punishment as well.
Zekiel
New Member
No not completely just let it be a guess unless its a Counter hold. Because like i said there's no escape for command throws. I saw Master in one round in a tournament did nothing but throw the opponent with command throws. Thats worse
Lets take sarah 4 ex. Her 1K launcher its -15 on block. In VF and this game you would just punish with elbow or anything thats 15f or below. Of course it is throw punishable also and cant be fuzzy guarded however it should be a guess. Command throws shouldn't be automatically guranteed anytime. If thats the case then there's no point in being able to escape N throws. And even thats not possible all the time cuz if you press T too slow it fails. <The only time this is useful is for combo holds.In DOA you'dhold down (not press) T,4or6 while guarding you escape the NT. Get what im sayin?
HoodsXx
Well-Known Member
Actually for Bass only unsafe GB that's punishable is running P lol. So I wouldn't recommend doing that.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
I vaguely understand what you are saying but most moves are not -15 on block, often they are -9 or so which means if all throws are escapable then there is no way to guarantee a punish against the opponent seeing as the fastest moves (of which there are only 3 of these in the game) come out in i9 with an additional i1 for activation.
Instead of being guaranteed a punish for the opponent making a mistake there would only be constant guessing all the time.
Moves would have to be way more unsafe or attacks would need to be sped up to allow any guaranteed punish.
Unless you are saying there shouldn't be any guaranteed punish in which case I disagree.
I may have misunderstood you though. If so I apologise.
If there's one area of DOA that I'd like to have less guessing it's in punishment. Every character has 7 frame throws (6 frame throws for Grappler characters). These throws do slightly more damage than neutral throws and their sole purpose is to throw punish unsafe attacks on block. VF doesn't need throw punishment because you can punish unsafe attacks with strikes. DOA's hold system can thwart strike punishment. This is where punish throws come in (and also why I like throws being clearly more powerful than holds).
Neutral 5 or 4 frame throws can be broken, but even those throws don't need to be breakable since they only do about 38 or 40-something damage and would only be guaranteed for block punishment for unsafe attacks. I find in actual matches that even neutral throw attempts can be easily interrupted by jabs. If you're getting throw punished, you're doing something wrong.
Zekiel
New Member
Wait then im guessin you can Chold after unsafe moves? If
Wait then im guessin you can Chold after unsafe moves? If thats the case then DOA needs to become more frame heavy. I ddnt play DOA that much because of all the updates it had i got turned off. In VF if one uses a unsafe move they cant move or do any reversals for however many frames.They can only guard. I guess in DOA5 frames dont have long recovery time. Just make recovery frames from unsafe moves so there's no Cholds.There still spammed though cuz of no TE skip to 2:00
You can't hold instantly after unsafe moves, but you can usually get it off before a punish strike connects. This doesn't apply to hitting someone Backturned though. Grabs are a more surefire way of block punishment.
One of MASTER's gameplay attributes is that he is very skilled with grabs, and uses the skill dubbed "Run-up-and-Grab (also helps that he plays a pseudo-grappler). You make it sound like those grabs he used in that round were easy. He spent majority of the match CONDITIONING his opponent to respect his offense so that he could pressure with those grabs. Try doing the same thing against a skilled opponent and see how many grabs you hit in comparison to how many CH's you'll eat.
Throw breaks are not as necessary in DOA as you may think. On the other hand, throw breaks are very necessary in other games such as Tekken or SoulCalibur.
I wouldn't mind throw escapes honestly.
FlamingMuffin
Active Member
I'm not usually so blunt, but throw escapes would be moronic. Throws help to open up a player who likes to block. If you're losing to NH throws all the time, try attacking.
This isn't SC where all throws are essentially OHs and doing something unsafe on block means -11 or "more", allowing a quick punish with frame advantage or an actual punish (angel stab anyone?).
This isn't SC where all throws are essentially OHs and doing something unsafe on block means -11 or "more", allowing a quick punish with frame advantage or an actual punish (angel stab anyone?).
I don't think you can add throw breaks to this game as the punishment game is purely throw-based.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Of cours you can add throw breaks - just make them harder or impossible if you are at a certain level of disadvantage.
For example if you are in counter hold recovery - you can't throw break
But if you're just blocking or sidestepping or in minor recovery from a move there should be throw breaks
All that said I didn't include it in the list as yet because I don't believe it's a realistic item to expect at this time
For example if you are in counter hold recovery - you can't throw break
But if you're just blocking or sidestepping or in minor recovery from a move there should be throw breaks
All that said I didn't include it in the list as yet because I don't believe it's a realistic item to expect at this time
Also Brad's OHs make sense. x)
Some buff could be done by adding more tracking attacks. The reason I stopped to play Eliot was he has extremely few ones, also Kokoro has same problem. [edited because writing errors]
Wake up kicks forces attacker to pause/stop the offensive, so attackers lose the momentum (which is one of the enjoyments of attackers). I'm not sure if WUKs are really good or not, but these have always guaranteed that theres not frenetic massacres in DOA, which also means that defender has opportunity to get into the offensive after being KD. I always liked DOA (among other reasons) because it always give player a tool for turning fight in his favour. Also WUKs can be easily punished, I usually use it just to interrup attackers who don't take the pause cleverly.
FTs reduce this, but i think these are justified because usally: are not easy to do, requiere to sacrifice some combo damage and guarantee nothing but frame advantage. I think they enrich the game, however perhaps better leave these as strength of especific chars.
Saber
Well-Known Member
Unless characters don't re-align themselves and strings don't magically track, I'd agree with you (every linear move should have tracking behavior like Ayane's 66KKK - it leaves her at her own axis). Personally, the only reason they need a mid/low tracking move is to offset their bad matchup with Christie.
I hate wakeup kicks just because something that would've earned me a CH when standing up cannot be earned when it comes to the wakeup kick. They fucking have invincibility frames, and forces the attacker who wants to apply pressure (and earned the right to by knocking you down) into a 50/50. Yes, you can space then whiff punish or block then throw punish (not applying to mid WUK since it knocks the opponent back) but it shouldn't allow any chance of 'coming back'. If the defender wants to 'come back', then he has to read the opponent correctly or throw punish a blocked, unsafe move, not by the means of a free opening into the stun game or frame advantage.
I see no reason why force techs should be. Granted, some characters do it much better than others (eg. Helena), but it should be a tool everyone has universal access to (by means of an actual force tech where a low attack hits the opponent at precisely the moment they hit the ground). Ground slams, on the other hand, is something I'd agree to be character-specific (which right now, it is).
whew! that makes me so happy to hear you say that.
Don't call me kid. No matter how many times I look at it, it still looks like a critical burst to me, because I do not play with the effect on. You should pay attention before replying, and see that the question was already answered before you, by Sorwah. Learn how to address people.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Seems you're late as well buddy, on two accounts anyway.
@Sergio (Brad Player) - I suppose they may make sense but the deal with his hitboxes should be worked out. He has little to no hitbox while in that OH which is ridiculous. I had Hayate's 3h+k crushed by it at point blank range multiple times which is an issue. Along side that there's been a bunch of issues regarding his hitboxes and aside from brad specifically, moves just falling off axis.
that's something i want worked out.
d3v
Well-Known Member
Make it lije 3rd Strike where the throw break window is bigger before the animation and very small after (i.e. easier to break on prediction).
Well, as DoA5U has a free to play option and can expect a lot of new people, I wouldn't say that changes towards a more hardcore game is something that should be prioritized at launch.
That said they did patch DoA5 to become more competitive, and I expect they will do the same with DoA5U.
I for one would not like to see the hold damage simply be decreased, as I view this as not a complete guessing game even at a higher level. Perhaps this is because I am particularly good at it myself, and are able to set up camp in the opponents head more often than the other way around. It's kinda like Texas Hold'Em. Sure you may get lucky once in a while, but in the long run only the better readers, not guessers, will be the one who dominate.
That said, they could tweak it somehow. For example if we decrease all high- and low hold damage by 15%, we make it so that everyone got 2 different high holds that both work against high kicks and punches, but that one of them do 30% more damage against high kicks and the other 30% more against high punches, and the same for lows. Also they could add a "slow hold" that takes more frames to perform and longer recovery time, but increases damage, making the read about if you expect a jab or a real strike.
In other words, I am all up for making some changes to the hold system, but not to nerf it in general, just to make it more complex. Decreasing the damage in general would be a no go. Decrease for worse reads and increase for better reads is a better option in my book.
That said they did patch DoA5 to become more competitive, and I expect they will do the same with DoA5U.
I for one would not like to see the hold damage simply be decreased, as I view this as not a complete guessing game even at a higher level. Perhaps this is because I am particularly good at it myself, and are able to set up camp in the opponents head more often than the other way around. It's kinda like Texas Hold'Em. Sure you may get lucky once in a while, but in the long run only the better readers, not guessers, will be the one who dominate.
That said, they could tweak it somehow. For example if we decrease all high- and low hold damage by 15%, we make it so that everyone got 2 different high holds that both work against high kicks and punches, but that one of them do 30% more damage against high kicks and the other 30% more against high punches, and the same for lows. Also they could add a "slow hold" that takes more frames to perform and longer recovery time, but increases damage, making the read about if you expect a jab or a real strike.
In other words, I am all up for making some changes to the hold system, but not to nerf it in general, just to make it more complex. Decreasing the damage in general would be a no go. Decrease for worse reads and increase for better reads is a better option in my book.