Scornwell
Active Member
By the way, you mentioned that you and Rikuto are in agreement on Bass vs. Bayman being 5 - 5. Would either of you care to post the details on why you believe that is? Personally, I'm curious...
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
66T knocks down which does not help you as much as Jann Lee's dragon gunner.
Her crushes are still risky to use since they are all really unsafe, and wrong timing gets you beat up or even launched. Her crushes although useful, are generally not as good as Helena's, Gen Fu's or Ayane's.
It is true she doesn't need to burst to get good damage though. However, Jann Lee simply has it much easier for a 'comeback' if he's lower on health, since he can set up a free power blow more easily.
I would put Jann Lee in his own tier altogether. Leifang, Pai in the next one. There might others (maybe Gen Fu & Ayane) but I don't dare say because I don't really know them that well.
Jann Lee doesn't really seem to be a bad matchup against anyone.
Leifang's nightmare is Tina (probably 4-6), and anyone who doesn't need to play the stun game can give her a hard time since she doesn't get many chances to land her good stuff. Her crushes are unsafe and they rely on the opponent to attack first, and her sabakis and parries fall in the same category.
Pai doesn't really have a bad matchup either I think, because her speed and mixups can trump basically everything. However, she needs to play the stun game more than the two above, despite her long list of guaranteed stuff.
Edit:
By the way... If you want a proper match up discussion.. Why not pick a single character every week for everyone to discuss about, comparing it to whole cast? At least that way, we'll have some form of structure.
Something-Unique
Active Member
If I could find where i made one of my few posts in the original thread I would.as I remember saying I would for future reference.
It was
SS:
Sarah, Pai
S:
Mila, Jann Lee, Gen Fu
A:
Kokoro, Rig
The rest. It was something like this if i'm not mistaken. While I currently have Pai a notch lower. People slept and still sleep on the character.To add to the above she also has Helena's easy bake oven low kick that deep stuns on natural hit. People's only argument for Mila was small movelist and still is.
I'd add Helena and Leifang to the A list now to flesh it out better. With Lei being at the top of it while I still believe Mila to be at the top of hers. If no major changes occur in the patch I feel the ending matchup chart will inevitably reflect this.
Edit: The matchups in this game imo seem to directly reflect the given tools of each character unlike the intricate details of other fighters. IMHO
Double Edit: It's funny cause these days these characters seem to be at the overall front of favorable matchups in the game tbh
I had already explained the matchup between Ayane & Kasumi, but nobody listened lol
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
I'll always say Jann is better than Lei for the same reason, he just has easier access to his damage. Lei is right below him, though.
DontForkWitMe
Well-Known Member
good to see people finally realizing eliot is trash, i'll go more indepth on why that is since im one of the few that bother maining him. his favorable matchups are all 5-5 at best with the rest putting him at severe disadvantage.
to start his normal hit game is abysmal, you can literally get smacked in the face by his punch string attacks and still block or high crush mid string interrupting him during his strings. he has a dozen versions of the same non natural combo string that all alternate between mid and high punch and have the same 4 enders (high kick, mid punch, midpunch guard break, low punch) with all of them being unsafe and throw punishable on block accept the guardbreak which still leaves him at disadvantage. the bs thing about his string is the low punch at the end of the string puts him at disadvantage even on normal hit while doing crap damage(as does all his lows other than 2H+K) making it damn near impossible to open a blocking opponent up other than grabbing them.
eliot has absolutely zero guaranteed setups and is best played as a grappler due to his 236hp launcher throw. since his strings are slow predictable and easily counterable so its best to just bait people to hold by free cancelling/string delay and get that hi-counter throw damage off it into his damaging juggles which is pretty much all he has going for him due to having the best refloat of the roster with instant 3p. his best matchups are against close range rushdown characters due to his 7p i9 and parries which don't grant free launchers(although 9kk still works on everyone 90% of the time),it still can put a stop to their offense and begin his mixup guessing game on them. his 7p i9 while good and works great for those pesky poking bitches like kasumi and christie has terrible range and easily crushable especially against evasive characters that excel at range.
overall eliot is soley guess-based and playing him in this game is just playing doa4 with new stages and against characters who are more viable with far better tools than him. at least in DOA4 90% of the roster were just as shit as him but those once shit characters got buffed and have left him behind to rot in the low tier cesspool. he truly NEEDS to be buffed, making his 2h+k in his strings stun on normal hit alone will shoot him up a tier
to start his normal hit game is abysmal, you can literally get smacked in the face by his punch string attacks and still block or high crush mid string interrupting him during his strings. he has a dozen versions of the same non natural combo string that all alternate between mid and high punch and have the same 4 enders (high kick, mid punch, midpunch guard break, low punch) with all of them being unsafe and throw punishable on block accept the guardbreak which still leaves him at disadvantage. the bs thing about his string is the low punch at the end of the string puts him at disadvantage even on normal hit while doing crap damage(as does all his lows other than 2H+K) making it damn near impossible to open a blocking opponent up other than grabbing them.
eliot has absolutely zero guaranteed setups and is best played as a grappler due to his 236hp launcher throw. since his strings are slow predictable and easily counterable so its best to just bait people to hold by free cancelling/string delay and get that hi-counter throw damage off it into his damaging juggles which is pretty much all he has going for him due to having the best refloat of the roster with instant 3p. his best matchups are against close range rushdown characters due to his 7p i9 and parries which don't grant free launchers(although 9kk still works on everyone 90% of the time),it still can put a stop to their offense and begin his mixup guessing game on them. his 7p i9 while good and works great for those pesky poking bitches like kasumi and christie has terrible range and easily crushable especially against evasive characters that excel at range.
overall eliot is soley guess-based and playing him in this game is just playing doa4 with new stages and against characters who are more viable with far better tools than him. at least in DOA4 90% of the roster were just as shit as him but those once shit characters got buffed and have left him behind to rot in the low tier cesspool. he truly NEEDS to be buffed, making his 2h+k in his strings stun on normal hit alone will shoot him up a tier
@Something-Unique: Ayane definitely isn't anything below A tier. This is one character that has always been a strong character in this series. And she's even stronger in DOA5.
A character that can get 50-60+ damage (that's being the low average of her damage) on a consistent basis through a less amount of guessing or on counter hit is really good. On counter hit she's getting 70-80+ (80-90+ if she persues the stun threshold). Having the luxury of getting a force tech at every launch height into guaranteed 50/50 mixup is really good. 64H+P nets her a damaging force tech into guaranteed 50/50 mixup on normal hit, counter and high counter, for free. Her 64H hold does the exact same thing. She excels at whiff punishment and spacing all too well. This girl gets spoon fed by people making mistakes.
Even without that, she has a wide array of attacks and strings that have very good applications behind them. P is -1 on block, yet it opens up a large variety of options to her. It's immediate access to her back turned strings, her back turned throw, and BT8P, for example. If you try to jab her after blocking P, she can hi crush you for it. And she's one of the best Hi crush characters in the game.
Ayane has;
- Great movement
- Evasion - 11 and 33 spins literally ducks all highs. Neither give HCH status either.
- Multiple hi crushes - 8KK can net Ayane a force tech on HCH.
- Solid poke speed - 10 frame jab, 13 frame mids, 12 frame low jab (very few have a low jab this fast)
- Solid damage output
- Solid range game
- 64H and 64H+P both give guaranteed damage and force tech into 50/50 mixup.
- Solid match-ups across the board.
- Force tech at every launch height.
- Nullifies the wake-up kick game (Force techs or can just get away).
- 46H is still a hold.
- 3H+K is solid - 0 on block. Gives sitdown stun on NH/CH into launch or mixup.
- Excellent at whiff punishment.
- Stun > Launch mixup - Means she can get solid damage through a minimum amount of guessing. That's a powerful ability to have in Dead or Alive.
That definitely doesn't sound like a mid or low tier character.
A character that can get 50-60+ damage (that's being the low average of her damage) on a consistent basis through a less amount of guessing or on counter hit is really good. On counter hit she's getting 70-80+ (80-90+ if she persues the stun threshold). Having the luxury of getting a force tech at every launch height into guaranteed 50/50 mixup is really good. 64H+P nets her a damaging force tech into guaranteed 50/50 mixup on normal hit, counter and high counter, for free. Her 64H hold does the exact same thing. She excels at whiff punishment and spacing all too well. This girl gets spoon fed by people making mistakes.
Even without that, she has a wide array of attacks and strings that have very good applications behind them. P is -1 on block, yet it opens up a large variety of options to her. It's immediate access to her back turned strings, her back turned throw, and BT8P, for example. If you try to jab her after blocking P, she can hi crush you for it. And she's one of the best Hi crush characters in the game.
Ayane has;
- Great movement
- Evasion - 11 and 33 spins literally ducks all highs. Neither give HCH status either.
- Multiple hi crushes - 8KK can net Ayane a force tech on HCH.
- Solid poke speed - 10 frame jab, 13 frame mids, 12 frame low jab (very few have a low jab this fast)
- Solid damage output
- Solid range game
- 64H and 64H+P both give guaranteed damage and force tech into 50/50 mixup.
- Solid match-ups across the board.
- Force tech at every launch height.
- Nullifies the wake-up kick game (Force techs or can just get away).
- 46H is still a hold.
- 3H+K is solid - 0 on block. Gives sitdown stun on NH/CH into launch or mixup.
- Excellent at whiff punishment.
- Stun > Launch mixup - Means she can get solid damage through a minimum amount of guessing. That's a powerful ability to have in Dead or Alive.
That definitely doesn't sound like a mid or low tier character.
Something-Unique
Active Member
Ayane is in my A tier. I was simply trying to re-list exactly what I had wrote a while back and how it goes together which the characters that appear to have the most favorable matchups. There are more characters unlisted in my A. Its just unfinished. So I agree with you! A list imo is fairly stacked and then B and C are smaller just like SS and S.
I suppose I will give a detailed write up on Mila really soon. Probably by tomorrow when I get the chance as not to derail.
I suppose I will give a detailed write up on Mila really soon. Probably by tomorrow when I get the chance as not to derail.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Now back to Zack....Who here agrees that Zack vs. Gen fu is 7-3?
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Believe it? Dude it's Zack worst match ups? I can try and a body jann lee ,ayane, mila, and a VF character. But he is a nightmare.
HiguraShiki
Active Member
Gen Fu is almost everyone's worst matchup though.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
then he should be the best character in the game, right? Nah...there are characters better than him.
btw..i'm not buying the Jann Lee hype. I have yet to see one Jann lee online or offline show he's SS. Well there was that one Japanese Jann but I need more than that.
Lobo
Active Member
I think that Lei has equal, or slight advantage vs. nearly the entire cast.
I think her only her only losing matchup is vs. Tina. Tina can make Leifang pay dearly for trying to parry at the wrong time, and she doesn't have to worry much about Lei's crushes, because Tina's not going to be doing many highs. She also does spacing much better. Basically, I think Tina is the one char that changes the way most Lei players want to play. 4-6 to Tina.
The rest of the cast is mostly 6-4 or 5-5. I see anyone with strong throw options being 5-5, because it makes Lei more wary of throwing out parries or holds.
On the other hand, I believe the Lei vs. Zack matchup might be one of the most lopsided out there. Zack's best options are highs or mid-kicks. Lei laughs at highs, especially punches, and doing mid-kicks against her is a big no-no. I think that one is 7-3, maybe even 8-2 in her favor.
If we are going to talk about actual tier placement again, then why dont we start by discussing how many tiers there are first. That's always a sign as how balanced a game is. I think after Jann/Gen, the tiers become a lot closer.
I think her only her only losing matchup is vs. Tina. Tina can make Leifang pay dearly for trying to parry at the wrong time, and she doesn't have to worry much about Lei's crushes, because Tina's not going to be doing many highs. She also does spacing much better. Basically, I think Tina is the one char that changes the way most Lei players want to play. 4-6 to Tina.
The rest of the cast is mostly 6-4 or 5-5. I see anyone with strong throw options being 5-5, because it makes Lei more wary of throwing out parries or holds.
On the other hand, I believe the Lei vs. Zack matchup might be one of the most lopsided out there. Zack's best options are highs or mid-kicks. Lei laughs at highs, especially punches, and doing mid-kicks against her is a big no-no. I think that one is 7-3, maybe even 8-2 in her favor.
If we are going to talk about actual tier placement again, then why dont we start by discussing how many tiers there are first. That's always a sign as how balanced a game is. I think after Jann/Gen, the tiers become a lot closer.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
Umm....This is a bad matchup for Zack, but it's not 8-2 or 7-3. It's a 6-4 at best. Lei fang is not Gen fu with boobs. Gen fu has parries and crushes that make Zack his bitch. Lei's just got parries and any decent Zack can bait those out and make her pay for it.
What would lei vs. Bass be in your opinion? 6-4 lei or 7-3 lei?
HiguraShiki
Active Member
He's considered top tier by many people.
Lobo
Active Member
You basically described the entire playstyle of Leifang. Parries and Crushes (also Grappling, advanced holds, but I think you get my drift). In my opinion Leifang's parries are better than Gen's, and she has a lot more useful crushes. Gen gets the upper hand because the crushes he does have, give him a ton of guaranteed damage.
Plus, Gen doesn't have Lei's mid-kick hold. Lei can land just one of those and completely ruin Zack's day. It might not be as bad as 8-2, but Zack is going to have to basically play jab>grab game if he wants to have any chance. Lei just shuts down too much of his other offense.
As far as the Lei-Bass matchup, I think that is a lot closer. No more than 6-4, and could easily be 5.5-4.5 with the slight advantage to Lei. Bass is just a slower Tina. TFBB scares the shit out of Lei, and like Tina he's not gonna get crushed too often. He does has to get around Lei's parries, and the speed disadvantage is going to be hard to overcome, but all it takes is one TFBB...