The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
- Thread starter Matt Ponton
- Start date
Musourenka
Active Member
Unless he's talking about it being 11 frames but factoring in DOA5's +2 frames for strikes.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
oh....my bad...why don't you add 2 to it? Are adding 2 to certain moves or something? I don't wanna give out the wrong info.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Okay this is what I have for Helena, I won't mention her force tech as it is a universal match up tool. I also will only write about match ups I feel I have enough experience in.
Helena vs Gen Fu 3 - 7
He does more damage, has better sit down stuns, is faster (she can't even jab him out of his 6P) and his mid parry can eliminate all her best mix ups and her launchers. His parry forces her to reply on high's which he can crush very easily. She simply has no way to get any offensive pressure going seeing as he can beat her out consistently. The only ranged tool she has to keep him out with is KKK. This is possibly her worst match up along with Jann Lee. It is a simple match up but one that she fundamentally struggles with.
Helena vs Jann Lee 3 - 7
Regardless of spacing he wins, his 10 frame jab and 11 frame mid shut her down up close and at range his 66K and 3K4K keep her out. As with Gen Fu his sit down stuns are much more useful offering him at times +30 guaranteeing launches and critical burst. Helena has to read Jann Lee for the entire match to win.
His mid punch counter shuts her down pretty hard forcing her to rely on her few not so impressive high attacks, giving up mid's also means her best crushes are off limits making her life even harder.
If she can get him to stop countering mid then her P+K crush can help her gain some momentum though. She has to avoid entering neutral against Jann Lee mid fight at all costs.
Helena vs Ayane 4 - 6
This match up can be a pain but it is doable. Up close Ayane has an 10 frame jab coupled with a 13 frame mid (which seems to behave like a 12 frame mid sometimes) so Helena can put up a fight IF her guess is right on the mark. Ayane wins at range no contest there but her BKO duck can avoid both her 4F+K and 3F+K meaning her ranged offensive is only dangerous to Helena when she is spinning.
Ayane's 4P is still 15 frames and still beats a lot of stuff out especially against Helena who's mid attacks have high hit boxes and are easily high crushed like her fastest mid poke 3P. Helena's 6P from BKO is good against Ayane and her 3K and 9K can stop a lot of her spinning attacks. Be careful with 9K cause if she gets hit out of it she will be in high counter state.
This is winnable but Ayane still out matches Helena in speed, range and damage output.
Helena vs Lei Fang 4 - 6
As with a lot of match ups Lei Fang dominates Helena up close, she's got a 10 frame jab, stronger 12 frame mid pokes and as with Gen Fu her mid parry can shut down most of Helenas best tools. Dealing with these tools requires very strong reads. Helena needs to space as much as possible in this match up because she simply has no way of starting offensive pressure against a character who is faster and can eliminate most of her attacks with one move.
2F+K and SS+K are great in this match up seeing as she can't parry them, nothing is guaranteed after these hits as she can slow escape the stuns and parry before your next attack so be careful with how you follow up.
Helena's P+K can be useful to start an offensive as long as Lei Fang isn't spamming mid parries constantly. She is fairly susceptible to being high crushed so this might be Helena's best tool for interrupting her attacks.
This match up requires very good reads seeing as Lei Fang will trump Helena based on speed and her parries eliminate so many of Helena's best tools. Helena needs to make sure not to get caught in neutral against her as Lei Fang doesn't have to make a particularly educated read to shut her down.
Helena vs Kokoro 5.5 - 4.5
This match up can go either way, again as with Lei Fang Kokoro has a 10 frame jab and a stronger 12 frame mid punch. There is just one problem for Kokoro... Helena's P+K goes under whatever Kokoro can throw at her.
P+K still crushes like it did in DOA4 only thing is in DOA4 P+K crushed instantly now it takes a few frames to crush, so as long as you can find a reasonable opening P+K will go under most of Kokoro's attacks. This will make a good Kokoro more hesitant to try to endlessly pressure Helena seeing as she can almost DP out of her best strings.
Helena has to be careful when throwing moves out as Kokoro's whiff punisher's are extremely good. Good spacing is necessary for Helena to gain the upper hand but one mistake will cost her badly.
Kokoro has Helena beat on range and damage output but if Helena can find an opening to crush she can easily turn things around.
Whoever gains momentum wins this match up. Kokoro has much better tools in regards to pokes, damage and sit down stuns but Helena's P+K is so good against Kokoro that it almost evens the match out.
She does win some match ups and pull even in quite a few I just haven't got around to writing them yet.
TBC
Helena vs Gen Fu 3 - 7
He does more damage, has better sit down stuns, is faster (she can't even jab him out of his 6P) and his mid parry can eliminate all her best mix ups and her launchers. His parry forces her to reply on high's which he can crush very easily. She simply has no way to get any offensive pressure going seeing as he can beat her out consistently. The only ranged tool she has to keep him out with is KKK. This is possibly her worst match up along with Jann Lee. It is a simple match up but one that she fundamentally struggles with.
Helena vs Jann Lee 3 - 7
Regardless of spacing he wins, his 10 frame jab and 11 frame mid shut her down up close and at range his 66K and 3K4K keep her out. As with Gen Fu his sit down stuns are much more useful offering him at times +30 guaranteeing launches and critical burst. Helena has to read Jann Lee for the entire match to win.
His mid punch counter shuts her down pretty hard forcing her to rely on her few not so impressive high attacks, giving up mid's also means her best crushes are off limits making her life even harder.
If she can get him to stop countering mid then her P+K crush can help her gain some momentum though. She has to avoid entering neutral against Jann Lee mid fight at all costs.
Helena vs Ayane 4 - 6
This match up can be a pain but it is doable. Up close Ayane has an 10 frame jab coupled with a 13 frame mid (which seems to behave like a 12 frame mid sometimes) so Helena can put up a fight IF her guess is right on the mark. Ayane wins at range no contest there but her BKO duck can avoid both her 4F+K and 3F+K meaning her ranged offensive is only dangerous to Helena when she is spinning.
Ayane's 4P is still 15 frames and still beats a lot of stuff out especially against Helena who's mid attacks have high hit boxes and are easily high crushed like her fastest mid poke 3P. Helena's 6P from BKO is good against Ayane and her 3K and 9K can stop a lot of her spinning attacks. Be careful with 9K cause if she gets hit out of it she will be in high counter state.
This is winnable but Ayane still out matches Helena in speed, range and damage output.
Helena vs Lei Fang 4 - 6
As with a lot of match ups Lei Fang dominates Helena up close, she's got a 10 frame jab, stronger 12 frame mid pokes and as with Gen Fu her mid parry can shut down most of Helenas best tools. Dealing with these tools requires very strong reads. Helena needs to space as much as possible in this match up because she simply has no way of starting offensive pressure against a character who is faster and can eliminate most of her attacks with one move.
2F+K and SS+K are great in this match up seeing as she can't parry them, nothing is guaranteed after these hits as she can slow escape the stuns and parry before your next attack so be careful with how you follow up.
Helena's P+K can be useful to start an offensive as long as Lei Fang isn't spamming mid parries constantly. She is fairly susceptible to being high crushed so this might be Helena's best tool for interrupting her attacks.
This match up requires very good reads seeing as Lei Fang will trump Helena based on speed and her parries eliminate so many of Helena's best tools. Helena needs to make sure not to get caught in neutral against her as Lei Fang doesn't have to make a particularly educated read to shut her down.
Helena vs Kokoro 5.5 - 4.5
This match up can go either way, again as with Lei Fang Kokoro has a 10 frame jab and a stronger 12 frame mid punch. There is just one problem for Kokoro... Helena's P+K goes under whatever Kokoro can throw at her.
P+K still crushes like it did in DOA4 only thing is in DOA4 P+K crushed instantly now it takes a few frames to crush, so as long as you can find a reasonable opening P+K will go under most of Kokoro's attacks. This will make a good Kokoro more hesitant to try to endlessly pressure Helena seeing as she can almost DP out of her best strings.
Helena has to be careful when throwing moves out as Kokoro's whiff punisher's are extremely good. Good spacing is necessary for Helena to gain the upper hand but one mistake will cost her badly.
Kokoro has Helena beat on range and damage output but if Helena can find an opening to crush she can easily turn things around.
Whoever gains momentum wins this match up. Kokoro has much better tools in regards to pokes, damage and sit down stuns but Helena's P+K is so good against Kokoro that it almost evens the match out.
She does win some match ups and pull even in quite a few I just haven't got around to writing them yet.
TBC
HiguraShiki
Active Member
i13 is pretty average. It isn't fast at all. Mila's mid beats out Zack's as a matter of fact.
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
If it were 13 it would, but he was adding the 2 start up frames so it doesn't.
HiguraShiki
Active Member
Oh, yea that doesn't help dude. Just say the actual frames it states. We can do the math anyways.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
She's rather simple, smallest movepool in the game, and generally a lot of straightforward tactics. Does great damage, has some nice stuns, has some devestating set ups, brain dead OHs, etc. . . she lacks high low string mix ups because her strings are incredibly linear and that's a much bigger detriment than most people realize.
"Facts" are not necessary in DOA5. Right now the character dominating tournaments has the best set of guess based tools in the game. You can tag on as many exclamation points as you want, but that won't change what this game is and what a character needs in order to win.
Tournament play is not the basis for tier lists, lol? Is there some other setting where players of equal skill battle it out that I'm not aware of?
Every match up in this game is 5-5, unless a character has difficulty playing the stun system or triangle system.
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
lol
Sure, dude.
It would be more accurate when the game's been out for more than 2.5 MONTHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't understand what you're not getting. You're ignoring everything and making up ridiculous opinions because it's DOA5 and you think you can do that. Match ups are not all 5-5, some characters are obviously better than others. Can you guess your way out of everything? Yes, but when a player of one character has to do more guessing they're obviously not as good. I think you'll notice that no one's saying any match ups are worse than 7-3.
HiguraShiki
Active Member
I guess that makes Brad Wong top tier this time around.
Yo don't make any assumptions. Just talk about the matchups. That's what messed up this thread the last time. Just reienforcing Mr.Wah's rules.
Yeah I was getting confused about that, since I'm not who does that "Add 2 to everything" crap. And I still fail anyway, I thought Zack's 6P was 12i, when it's 11i. Anywho, yeah, Zack still has good speed against Ayane in the match-up. However, all high attempts from him are vulnerable to her hi crushes (8K and 4P being the best choices and if she's predicting and reacting accordingly). She'll only have to respect his highs when he forces her to block stuff. His mid is the one move that really makes her stand still.
A simple P > 8P from her puts everything back in neutral and moreso in her favor since she can just 11 afterward to gain space.
A simple P > 8P from her puts everything back in neutral and moreso in her favor since she can just 11 afterward to gain space.
HiguraShiki
Active Member
I know but still. Being strick on saying stuff like "he's high tier" or something like that because ppl just start naming placements.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
This is true, Zack has been a constant victim of high crushes since DOA4. He has to be VERY careful with what he uses as her 4P will likely cut underneath it or trump it on speed.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
that's what I thinking. I thought everyone was in the same boat.
Lisa's 1p does the same thing.
How do you fix something like that?
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
You avoid high crushable moves to deter people from trying to crush you so you can use a wider array of attacks. Only thing you can do. It's a shame mid's can be crushed so easily in DOA.Lisa's 1p does the same thing.
MasterHavik
Well-Known Member
thanks for the advice. I'll try that. I wish he had some better crushes. I think 3p is a crush, but I'm not sure.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Cool, character was broken down in 2.5 weeks to put things into perspective. This game has been out for 7 years, it just has a few new gimmicks.
Outside of the guess system is mostly irrelevant from what I've seen. Characters with guaranteed damage(you're opinion of better) are not dominating tournaments on any level.