The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread

Smithy

Member
Kasumi is a high tier character. Just like in previous DOAs, what stops her from top is her safety issues. Anything after her initial pokes she is screwed. Her holds outside of advance mid-kick or her low kick hold she does mediocre damage, even on Hi Counter. The majority of her throws are still slow. Her NH damage is fairly weak from her throws to juggles. She is very limited at long range so at the back of the screen she loses fights easily. Personally I have no problem at the back of the screen with Kasumi and I will not lose easily because it. However, tool-wise, Kasumi doesn't have too many things that will allow her to close a long distance gap. These are things that prevent her from being top tier.

What definately makes her high tier is her ability to play the stun game and punish holds with launching throws taking a quarter of your life no matter which throw Kasumi uses. That's 100 pts of damge on Hi Counter, Kasumi throws you 3 times and the fight is over her Hi Counter throwing you. Now, with the new system mechanics Kasumi does not have to rely solely on that gameplay, the stun game. Kasumi has the ability to bypass the stun game for guaranteed damage and that damage is almost taking a quarter of life. The damage ranges from 71-93 pts of damage (it will take a quarter of life on Hi Counter hits), that damge is for both of her moves that allow her to bypass playing the stun game.

The first move is H+K followed by 6K ( I invented this shit FYI), this move is 17i, hold resistant (she takes no damage if you hold it) , she has follow ups from it so holding it isn't end all be all, and you can't fuzzy guard the low or mid option. H+K can also punish holds out of stun, meaning that you can watch a high or mid hold, wait, then get a Counter hit by striking with H+k. PPK will grant you all of the perks of the move as well. But H+K is all that is needed.

4H+K is the second move that grants her the ability to bypass the stun game, on NH hit it causes a sit down stun that can be SE'd. On Counter to Hi Counter it causes an unholdable sit down stun that guarantee her a launcher (3H+K) this move is safe, only grapplers can punish it and that's if they step up quick to do it because on block it pushes. So when players try to low hold from Kasumi's H+K, 4H+K will give you an unholdable stun as well.

H+K is the better unholdable stun but they both allow Kasumi to bypass the stun game when worked properly. So factoring in her usual play style; playing in the stun game to bait holds, Kasumi can now bypass that with unholdable stuns followed by damage as low as 71 pts of damage to as high as 98 pts of damage.

Low or mid tier characters cannot not do this but there's more.

As many of you should know, Kasumi has Untechables. They leave her at +9 to +14. The ones they will be worked the most are the ones that leave her at +9 or 10. The only problem with her untechables is that they are not as fluent as Helena's. you have to sacrifice damage for Kasumi's untechables and the need to setup them up is not worth doing all the time, unlike Helena. However, Kasumi does have a nasty force tech game, the frame advantage from it is ridiculous for a character at her speed level.

All of the characters have something crazy next to wall. Kasumi's wall game is one of the best wall games in doa5. She can re-launch any character and juggle them right back into wall ( I invented this shit FYI). No matter hit that You get slammed into the wall the damage output from the juggles is fairly high. My bad for not having the exact numbers on this. If you were watching me on stream I am sure you saw it.

Almost forgot, Kasumi now has a punish throw. Which is a problem for players that disrespected her by finishing things in doa4. Knowing she couldn't do anything about it. Now she can snatch up players for playing reckless. It is a typical punish throw but it helps defend herself better than before.

Kasumi in a ceiling area shoots up the tier list (top tier) for as long as she is in it. She has 3 extremely viable ways of putting you in the ceiling. 236T, 1T and 46H, all of these moves are a major part of her game play and you will be caught in at least 2 of them. Once you are caught by any of them Kasumi is taking half life (150 pts of damage).

Kasumi's damage output is high, to get to her damage she needs to get counter or hi counter hits to start with. I cant give exact numbers on this because combos/juggles vary after the counter or hi counter hit to initate the damage. Getting counter or hi counter hits would be difficult for her if was slow. By her being as fast as she is Kasumi will get the hit statues she needs to deal her damage. So Kasumi relying on Counter or Hi Counter hit to deal damage is not a problem for her in the slightest bit. Hi counter throws will cost you a quarter life (100 pts of dmg). Her advanced mid kick and low kick hold will cost you at least a quarter life.

Kasumi's parries now grant her guaranteed damage. Moves that are safe or pokes her parries will not give her anything. But she will eliminate 2 options with a parry. Moves that are unsafe or strings that are continued and she parries Kasumi will get a free knock down or she can launch. This does depend on what she parries but again she eliminates 2 options with one move and she gets guaranteed damage from it.

I am watching top 8 at NEC right now. So I will leave info to unknowing players of what Kasumi really is. I will continue this later because there is more if this isn't enough to make her high tier.
great post. i'd love to see a post like this for every character, preferably by high level tournament players like allan paris
 

Perfect Legend

Active Member
Jann Lee doesn't lose to Genfu and has never lost to gen fu in any iteration of DOA because of the mid punch hold and Gen Fu 6p loses to p6p. Also both of their 6p's are 11 frames genfu's does more dmg which is why it wins but you don't want to do a mid punch vs Jann Lee in this game.

Gen Fu's crushes are weak in this game like they were in DOA2. They aren't really a factor because his 1p+k (the old 3p+k) doesn't really even crush anymore and its like 30 frames. fc 3p is unsafe as hell, 3p is ok but the second hit can be interrupted by jabs on normal hit (not just block normal hit too). 1p is ok but its -5 on hit lol. On top of that Jann lee can sidestep inbetween Gen Fu's strings and do ssP and go into his dumb stun shenanigans.
 

Allan Paris

Well-Known Member
Also both of their 6p's are 11 frames genfu's does more dmg which is why it wins but you don't want to do a mid punch vs Jann Lee in this game.

Just to point out something, it is rather small but the info is off. Their mid punches are exactly the same from the frames (11i) to the damage (18pts). So both punches tie when done at the same time. Their mid punches shouldn't be a factor in the match up because it is a stalemate.
 

Matt Ponton

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Just to point out something, it is rather small but the info is off. Their mid punches are exactly the same from the frames (11i) to the damage (18pts). So both punches tie when done at the same time. Their mid punches shouldn't be a factor in the match up because it is a stalemate.

Except that he's saying Jann Lee's mid punch hold is better than Gen Fu's mid punch hold/parry.
 

Murakame

Active Member
Hmm...Eliot vs. Hitomi. Hitomi has great pressure and mixup but I think Eliot would be able to shift the momentum a little with his 9 frame attack and parries. From what I have seen from Eliot he generally has poor damage output if it doesn't involve instant 3p palm or Hi counter throws. Hitomi's damage is not as dependent on a single move as Eliot and is fair enough. Also Eliot is extremely unsafe. He has double digit negative frames all over the place whereas Hitomi has a couple of safe strings. Hitomi's punch parry could also be a nuisance to Eliot when he attempts an offense. Eliot has to be playing this one defensively IMO if he wants to stand a chance. I say 6-4 , possibly 7-3 in Hitomi's favor but im leaning more toward 6-4. What do you guys think?
 

U_C_A_F

Well-Known Member
Hmm...Eliot vs. Hitomi. Hitomi has great pressure and mixup but I think Eliot would be able to shift the momentum a little with his 9 frame attack and parries. From what I have seen from Eliot he generally has poor damage output if it doesn't involve instant 3p palm or Hi counter throws. Hitomi's damage is not as dependent on a single move as Eliot and is fair enough. Also Eliot is extremely unsafe. He has double digit negative frames all over the place whereas Hitomi has a couple of safe strings. Hitomi's punch parry could also be a nuisance to Eliot when he attempts an offense. Eliot has to be playing this one defensively IMO if he wants to stand a chance. I say 6-4 , possibly 7-3 in Hitomi's favor but im leaning more toward 6-4. What do you guys think?

id say its about an even 5-5 matchup. she suffers from the same shortcomings he does like relying on the stun game and get jack shit guaranteed from anything. overall she has better high/low mixup game with faster strings and her punch parries definitely shutdown 90% of his offense but a good eliot will expect that and high counter throw her with 236h+p into his high damaging juggles which can lead to even more damage with multiple instant 3ps' wall carrying her into dangerzones if she relies on parries too much where as none of hitomi's throws on high counter are nearly as damaging as eliots launcher throw into bnb juggle so he has less to lose by throwing out his parries compared to hitomi doing so. his 7p i9 will also put a stop to all her rushdown attempts and turning the tide in his favor. overall they have an equal amount of pros and cons against each other and it simply comes down to match up knowledge.
 

ScattereDreams

Well-Known Member
Hmm...Eliot vs. Hitomi. Hitomi has great pressure and mixup but I think Eliot would be able to shift the momentum a little with his 9 frame attack and parries. From what I have seen from Eliot he generally has poor damage output if it doesn't involve instant 3p palm or Hi counter throws. Hitomi's damage is not as dependent on a single move as Eliot and is fair enough. Also Eliot is extremely unsafe. He has double digit negative frames all over the place whereas Hitomi has a couple of safe strings. Hitomi's punch parry could also be a nuisance to Eliot when he attempts an offense. Eliot has to be playing this one defensively IMO if he wants to stand a chance. I say 6-4 , possibly 7-3 in Hitomi's favor but im leaning more toward 6-4. What do you guys think?

When hitomi is trying to put the pressure on Eliot, any attempts to free cancel into other strings, or delay will be beaten by his 7p. Her sweeps are also stopped by Eliot's F+K hop kick which gives Eliot a free combo. His damage output is greater. He also has his high/mid parries on top of that. Whiff punishment, i'd say that's arguable. While Hitomi has 46p and 236p, Eliot still has 6p+k, 66p+k, and 6f+k. Guaranteed damage crouching 3p will launch off both sit down stuns. If her low sweep lands on NH hit, she's at +5, but she has few options since his 7p will still beat most of her moves. Sadly, he lost his best crush -.-. 3p+k is just terrible now. However 2f+k is a good high crush, that crouches instantly, but not as fast as Hitomi's 1p. Eliot also has hit f+k which hops over standing high and puts them into a stagger stun as well as imo his best low crush 6f+k. But he has a good number of safes. 214p, 6f+k, 8p, 46p, kk and backturned k which I my favorite safe for creating frame traps.

Hitomi is definitely safer.. Alot safer. But most of them end in high kicks that can sidestepped or easily crushed by Eliot. Like Eliot, she also has a low crush that can beat ducking or standing lows. Her 8f+k but it's better than Eliot's 6f+k because it launches on NH/CH. Hitomi also has the speed advantage and Eliot's a little more linear.
 

Brute

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Standard Donor
I hesitate to even ask because these characters are widely contested and opinions on them vary a lot, but what do you guys think about Ryu v Hayate? I've talked about this a good deal with Takeda before, but I'd love to hear from some other people who also know Hayate very well.

I'll admit, I'm coming in with bias. But the way I see it, Hayate has a clear speed advantage in pretty much every regard, good damage, some good crushes, and a surprisingly good distance game if spaced right. He has good juggle potential and better low trips than Ryu does. Aside from the gimmicky stuff and some higher damage output with a few ridiculous combos (specifically in regarding to the ceiling), I just don't see Ryu coming out on top.
 

HiguraShiki

Active Member
I hesitate to even ask because these characters are widely contested and opinions on them vary a lot, but what do you guys think about Ryu v Hayate? I've talked about this a good deal with Takeda before, but I'd love to hear from some other people who also know Hayate very well.

I'll admit, I'm coming in with bias. But the way I see it, Hayate has a clear speed advantage in pretty much every regard, good damage, some good crushes, and a surprisingly good distance game if spaced right. He has good juggle potential and better low trips than Ryu does. Aside from the gimmicky stuff and some higher damage output with a few ridiculous combos (specifically in regarding to the ceiling), I just don't see Ryu coming out on top.
We were actually talking about it quite a bit on the previous page X_X
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
I hesitate to even ask because these characters are widely contested and opinions on them vary a lot, but what do you guys think about Ryu v Hayate? I've talked about this a good deal with Takeda before, but I'd love to hear from some other people who also know Hayate very well.

I'll admit, I'm coming in with bias. But the way I see it, Hayate has a clear speed advantage in pretty much every regard, good damage, some good crushes, and a surprisingly good distance game if spaced right. He has good juggle potential and better low trips than Ryu does. Aside from the gimmicky stuff and some higher damage output with a few ridiculous combos (specifically in regarding to the ceiling), I just don't see Ryu coming out on top.
I agree. Hayate does everything but punish better than Ryu (doesn't really matter because they're both so unsafe). He matches his damage, crushes better, he's a little safer, plays the stun game better, and plays range better.

They killed Hayabusa and Hayate, but Hayate at least kept his speed. What they did to them was just stupid.
 

HiguraShiki

Active Member
I agree. Hayate does everything but punish better than Ryu (doesn't really matter because they're both so unsafe). He matches his damage, crushes better, he's a little safer, plays the stun game better, and plays range better.

They killed Hayabusa and Hayate, but Hayate at least kept his speed. What they did to them was just stupid.
What were TN thinking when they were working on them....
 

J.D.E.

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I agree. Hayate does everything but punish better than Ryu (doesn't really matter because they're both so unsafe). He matches his damage, crushes better, he's a little safer, plays the stun game better, and plays range better.

They killed Hayabusa and Hayate, but Hayate at least kept his speed. What they did to them was just stupid.
Yeah man. They did them wrong! But that's crybabies for you lol... It's hard to believe that I'm only working with only 2 ninjas this time, but this is off topic.

To jump back on topic, Hayate has a favorable matchup over Busa.
 

Brute

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Does Ryu have a favorable match-up against anyone? xD
I find he does pretty well against Bass, because when he's actually got a speed advtange over an opponent, he does quite well.
I also find him quite competent against Bayman. The speed difference between them isn't too significant, and because Bayman likes to roll and crouch, he can be caught easily with attacks like Ryu's 3H+K, 236P, 236P+K, 214P, etc.
 

J.D.E.

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Does Ryu have a favorable match-up against anyone? xD
I find he does pretty well against Bass, because when he's actually got a speed advtange over an opponent, he does quite well.
I also find him quite competent against Bayman. The speed difference between them isn't too significant, and because Bayman likes to roll and crouch, he can be caught easily with attacks like Ryu's 3H+K, 236P, 236P+K, 214P, etc.
He's not "bad". Just he's not as good as he was in 4. Same for Hayate. Both of them are working hard for the duke. He's still got some favorable matchups though. I can't name them right now cause I'm getting for class, but I will after class.
 

HiguraShiki

Active Member
He's not "bad". Just he's not as good as he was in 4. Same for Hayate. Both of them are working hard for the duke. He's still got some favorable matchups though. I can't name them right now cause I'm getting for class, but I will after class.
The main problem is the fact that they are so unsafe.. I mean its one thing to give them a few unsafe moves. But why the hell would almost their entire set of strings be unsafe is beyond me....
 

UncleKitchener

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Not sure how many times this has been discussed, but where do people see unpopular characters like Bass on the list? I've noticed that many in my local scene are unfamiliar with this match up. People sometimes tend to rate unpopular characters either too low or too high.​
Personally, I find it very difficult playing Bass against fast characters like Kasumi or Christie. It's tiring when trying to figure out what to do against someone who's constantly pressing buttons. Once you get your momentum, it's harder to keep it against fast characters unless you know what exactly works and what doesn't.​
 

Matt Ponton

Founder
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Administrator
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Not sure how many times this has been discussed, but where do people see unpopular characters like Bass on the list? I've noticed that many in my local scene are unfamiliar with this match up. People sometimes tend to rate unpopular characters either too low or too high.​
Personally, I find it very difficult playing Bass against fast characters like Kasumi or Christie. It's tiring when trying to figure out what to do against someone who's constantly pressing buttons. Once you get your momentum, it's harder to keep it against fast characters unless you know what exactly works and what doesn't.​

In my experience, his main disadvantage matchups are speed. It should be obvious, but he has difficulty with setting the pace, especially against characters like Kasumi, Ayane, Christie, and Jann Lee which many of their highs/mids/lows are faster than even his fastest attack. He basically has to rely on guard punishment but most advanced players of the characters won't be using the unsafe attacks against him. Luckily he just needs a -7 guard to get some frame advantage towards his side with 6H+P throw punishment being a 6 frame throw that gives him +11 or Big Wall Damage.

He has to play a poking game with most of the characters and that puts him at best in the 5-5 category. I can't see any matchup where he's at an advantage, and a few matchups where he's easily at disadvantage or severe disadvantage. I might go out on a limb and say he has a slight advantage against Hitomi but that's reaching for right now until I hear from a Hitomi player about what advantages/disadvantages she has over Bass. His pick-up game is nullified on all characters that can untechable force tech because the untechable force techs are all a better situation than his pick-up; his pick-up isn't even guaranteed off anything that isn't a major risk due to speed of the attack or a super high launcher.

The main thing Bass has going for him is damage. On average he's doing 60-80 point damage 3 hit combos/juggles, compared to kasumi who would need a high launch with 10+ hits to match the damage output, but she has strings that help her reach many guaranteed extensions to get a high launch.

With that understanding, it's easy to see why Bass would end up landing in the lower end of the list due to his lack of advantage match ups and heavy disadvantage match ups.
 
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