DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[NightAntilli]

Leifang's range is actually good once it's figured out, and that's not by many players. She's one that can string herself across the screen reliably with 7P. It works since 7P can go into any of her jab or PP strings. Not knowing what button stops this sort of approach rewards her well. I believe Requiem is the only Leifang I've fought that has that figured out. Other than this, 2H+K and 66P are a mid/low mix up on approach. Limited, but all effective.

7P is quite slow and a high. Doesn't sound exactly safe to be closing the distance that way. Especially with slippery opponents like Ayane, Hayate, Helena, Christie... Her strings aren't that long either. I'd have to test this or see it in action, but right now it doesn't really sound convincing.

2H+K is a disruptor and nothing else. Doesn't matter if it's normal hit or ultra super mega high counter hit, it still only guarantees a +6 which gives you nothing by itself. You have to rely on mixing up afterwards.
66P is definitely a great move. But the 2H+K & 66P combo is easily countered by a simple sidestep. So they are definitely limited, and IMO not that effective against someone who knows Leifang well.

Leifang has a great mid range, that almost reaches at long, but not quite.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

7P is quite slow and a high. Doesn't sound exactly safe to be closing the distance that way. Especially with slippery opponents like Ayane, Hayate, Helena, Christie... Her strings aren't that long either. I'd have to test this or see it in action, but right now it doesn't really sound convincing.

2H+K is a disruptor and nothing else. Doesn't matter if it's normal hit or ultra super mega high counter hit, it still only guarantees a +6 which gives you nothing by itself. You have to rely on mixing up afterwards.
66P is definitely a great move. But the 2H+K & 66P combo is easily countered by a simple sidestep. So they are definitely limited, and IMO not that effective against someone who knows Leifang well.

Leifang has a great mid range, that almost reaches at long, but not quite.

Watch Requiem play Leifang. You're welcome.

There is literally no DOA player in the community that can tell me if something is or isn't worth doing in footsies in this game. You are not going to "easily counter these with a simple side step". 66P is an i14 frame move, that is fast as hell for a footsie tool. That's like saying you'll easily side step Akira's 2K which is an i13 low. You are not going to see and react to this so easily. It is a read.

Leifang's 2H+K and Ayane's 33P are both long range lows at i20 frames, you are not going to react with side step every time you see (or barely see) either move. This is not easily reacted with a side step. There are so many ways to condition people to get hit by these if you are good at footsies and the neutral game.

Leifang's 2H+K is a good poke and a great counter poke. 66P is a great poke, good way to harass people in the neutral in combination with 2H+K, and a great whiff punisher.

And please do not tell me that an i20 frame move is slow in the neutral when I main a character that has a combination of i18-i20 frame mids and lows that are hard to see immediately.

 

[Jefffcore]

And please do not tell me that an i20 frame move is slow in the neutral when I main a character that has a combination of i18-i20 frame mids and lows that are hard to see immediately.

i20 attacks are slow: Lei Fangs sweep isn't hard to react to.

Comparing it with mids is apples and oranges.

 

[Heikou]

i20 attacks are slow: Lei Fangs sweep isn't hard to react to.

Comparing it with mids is apples and oranges.

Seeing and reacting to moves with a somewhat ambiguous startup in 1/3 of a second isn't really practical. You might be able to react to movement and hold it consistently if you know that they'll either be using the sweep or free cancelling out of a string, but as far as just seeing it coming and punishing it consistently goes, it's not really based on raw reaction.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

i20 attacks are slow: Lei Fangs sweep isn't hard to react to.

Really now? I suppose you're going to tell me Hayate's 236K is super easy to react to in the neutral then. Moves of this speed are difficult to see when someone is conditioning you with a combination of faster moves, slightly fast moves and good movement (footsies).

Even top level Street Fighters cannot react to every jump in attempt their opponent does because they are being conditioned to look for something else.

 

[XZero264]

i20 is slow and that's also depending on the individual viewing it, to me anything slower than i17 starts to become somewhat reactable based on if I've become accustomed to playing offline again (in some cases I've been able to react to 12 frame throws). It's when commands start to look like other ones (such as Rachel's 2P+K P and K where there is a ducking motion before both strikes become active or Momiji's 6K and 66K) that things become hard to react to and knowing strings comes into play.

Lei Fang's 2H+K is easy to react to offline, when you go online it's like Hitomi's 2H+K sweeps where you see it and know about it but can't do anything about it because there is just enough lag to stop you from reacting.
What you said above is like saying anybody's single strikes are easy to react to. Some just are because they are obvious while others are more difficult based on personal experience dealing with a character and ambiguous animations. Stop trying to sound holier than the rest of us all the time, everybody posting here is human. We are all right to a degree on this subject, next topic.

 

[NightAntilli]

Watch Requiem play Leifang. You're welcome.

I've already watched over 6 videos and have not seen what you're talking about. I only saw 7P once, and in that occasion he got hit in the face. If you could actually point me towards what you mean, that would be great.

Still not convinced.

There is literally no DOA player in the community that can tell me if something is or isn't worth doing in footsies in this game. You are not going to "easily counter these with a simple side step". 66P is an i14 frame move, that is fast as hell for a footsie tool. That's like saying you'll easily side step Akira's 2K which is an i13 low. You are not going to see and react to this so easily. It is a read.

That's quite an interesting perspective, considering I didn't mention reacting to the moves specifically. Not everything should be done on reaction. After a 2H+K, the best thing to do is to stagger escape and block. You can definitely see a second 2H+K coming, and even if you don't, you can stagger escape + fuzzy guard to help your defense, since it'll likely help you block low and avoid a high grab. It's not about reaction. It's about doing the best thing in the moment to avoid damage. If you see an aggressive Leifang that's constantly switching these kinds of linear pokes, one sidestep beats over half her moves list. She lacks proper circular moves and the ones she has are either in-string, highs or only work up close. You don't have to react to a single actual move, you simply have to make the best possible choice at the moment the opponent moves an inch, and you're set.

Leifang's 2H+K and Ayane's 33P are both long range lows at i20 frames, you are not going to react with side step every time you see (or barely see) either move. This is not easily reacted with a side step. There are so many ways to condition people to get hit by these if you are good at footsies and the neutral game.

I'm not saying you can't condition people to get hit by them. That was not the point. The point was that they cannot be considered effective long range moves, given that something being effective actually gives you some proper advantage to follow-up with. This discussion was about long range attacks. A 2H+K hits on approach like you mentioned at quite a distance, but what do you follow up with when it hits at that long range? You only have +6 to do something.

(7)PP to get crushed?
K to get crushed?
(7)P2P to get held by someone expecting her 9P after the 1st P whiffs?
Her slow H+K to get hit in the face?
Dash in to get hit in the face?
Another 2H+K to get hit by pretty much any 6P from any character?

It's all a guess. That's not what I consider 'great' moves or being 'great' at long range. Great at long range is being able to grab across the screen like Momiji/Ayane. Great at long range is Hayate's 3H+K. Great at long range is Kokoro's 33P/214P/236P/8P/1P. Great at long range is Hitomi's 46P, 236P, 3H+K and so on. Why? Because they close the gap and leave you at an advantage, whereas Leifangs moves leave you in pretty much the same situation after the hit.

There is one move that would be quite good at long range if it were safe, and that's her 1KP. Sadly, it's an unsafe move.

Leifang's 2H+K is a good poke and a great counter poke. 66P is a great poke, good way to harass people in the neutral in combination with 2H+K, and a great whiff punisher.

66P is good for closing the gap, but it's a single hit that pushes your opponent backwards. This only forces you to play the long range game again.Useless? Definitely not. You can finish a fight effectively this way. Very useful at long range? No. It's just ok, not great. I think the situation with 2H+K has already been explained enough.

And please do not tell me that an i20 frame move is slow in the neutral when I main a character that has a combination of i18-i20 frame mids and lows that are hard to see immediately.

Animation plays a role in multiple ways. First there's the confusion of moves looking like each other. No one is going to know if I do Leifang's PP4P rather than her PP2H+K because they look like each other. Even though they're both quite slow and in-string, no one will be able to see the difference in the moment. A sidestep beats both, but I digress.
Another influence is simply the way things are animated. The amount of frames a moves is does not equal how slow the animation looks. A good example is Kokoro's 8P vs her 46P. 8P is actually faster, but it looks slower.

 

[Jefffcore]

Really now? I suppose you're going to tell me Hayate's 236K is super easy to react to in the neutral then. Moves of this speed are difficult to see when someone is conditioning you with a combination of faster moves, slightly fast moves and good movement (footsies).

Even top level Street Fighters cannot react to every jump in attempt their opponent does because they are being conditioned to look for something else.

See, I didn't say it was "super easy" or that i could react to every single one, I said it wasnt that hard; you're twisting words. It's slow enough that you CAN react to it -- maybe not 100% when you're in the moment, but well enough.

You said "don't tell me i20 moves are slow", so I did, because I consider them slow if there's a decent amount of risk involved based on speed. Next you said "when I main a character with i18 - i20 mids", but who's reacting to mids? Reacting to a mid or high is not reacting.

I've never needed to react to a 236K because it's a high. The tens of thousands of times I've seen 2H+K help...

The condescending tone doesn't help anyone.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I've already watched over 6 videos and have not seen what you're talking about. I only saw 7P once, and in that occasion he got hit in the face. If you could actually point me towards what you mean, that would be great.

Still not convinced.

From one interaction and that's your conclusion. You haven't actually tried the 7P in that manner so of course you don't understand that it's actually something worthwhile.

There is literally no DOA player in the community that can tell me if something is or isn't worth doing in footsies in this game.

You guys really don't understand that concept, footsies, at all. It's like you only look at moves and based them on just the range themselves. You don't learn or even try to learn and understand situations they could provide or anything.

@NightAntilli if you would like to carry on this discussion, feel free to PM me. This thread has always been terrible and I honestly dislike being dragged back into it.

 

[NightAntilli]

From one interaction and that's your conclusion. You haven't actually tried the 7P in that manner so of course you don't understand that it's actually something worthwhile.

I didn't draw any conclusion. I did ask you to provide the video since I can't seem to be able to find it. That more than shows that I'm still open to the information, even though I'm very skeptical.

You guys really don't understand that concept, footsies, at all. It's like you only look at moves and based them on just the range themselves. You don't learn or even try to learn and understand situations they could provide or anything.

If you say so... There's a difference between throwing a distance move out hoping it hits, and using the move at the right moment to keep your opponent at bay, by just letting the move 'touch' the opponent and still being in a safe position in case it does whiff.

@NightAntilli if you would like to carry on this discussion, feel free to PM me. This thread has always been terrible and I honestly dislike being dragged back into it.

At least do me a favor and send me a video of requiem that shows what you're talking about, because I was not able to find it. You'd have a better idea where to look than me.

Also for the record, i20 is 1/3 of a second, which is 333 ms. The average human reaction time between seeing something and pressing a button is around 215 ms.

 

[StrikerSashi]

C'mon, 215ms is 13 frames. That's a bad joke. Maybe you can react to single stimuli in that time in a controlled environment, but not anything in a fighting game. The first few frames of the vast majority of moves are not distinct enough to tell what's what. Plus, you're also watching out for half a dozen other options. There's is absolutely no way for anyone to reliably react to anything under 18 or so frames unless it's super telegraphed from the first few frames. Unless you're watching for a specific thing at a specific time, even very good players are not gonna react to anything under 22-24 frames.

Do this for me and tell me you get anything close to 13 frames. My reactions are fairly slow, so I get something around 26-28f, which is like 450ms.

 

[Zero Beat]

Do this for me and tell me you get anything close to 13 frames. My reactions are fairly slow, so I get something around 26-28f, which is like 450ms.

Fastest I got was 16.2, but I always got a fault whenever I went below 19 because then I start to anticipate too much. Haven't gotten an average below 22 yet.

 

[NightAntilli]

Fastest I had was 2.7 lol but that was an obvious lucky guess. My average is around the 26-27 mark at work (which has crappy screens with high delays and crappy keyboards, no sound, in-browser). I have this habit of pressing block just when a move is going to hit, rather than as soon as possible, likely due to my hold heavy gameplay. It likely wouldn't drop my reaction time too much in this case anyway though. But I think I'd be around the 20-23 mark on a better screen and so on, but I'll have to test this in better conditions.

In any case, I'd say this is not representative of what I was talking about. This test is accurate for the general reaction time in fighting games, but not every situation warrants this kind of reactive behavior. Right now you have to choose between pressing or not pressing a button depending on what move the opponent does. This increases the reaction time by a lot because you HAVE to wait before pressing to make sure that the move is actually what you are looking for. If you just had to press a button any time the opponent does any attack, the reaction time of all of us would go down significantly.

Considering what I was saying regarding Leifang's 2H+K and 66P pokes, you don't have to look for 2H+K specifically to avoid it on reaction. Particularly at long range, want to know how to deal with Leifang? Anytime it looks like she's doing an attack, sidestep. You just have to see her make any attacking move, you sidestep, and you're set. (Doesn't work up close obviously...) Which is why I said;

The average human reaction time between seeing something and pressing a button is around 215 ms.

Of course if you want to react to a move specifically, or a set of moves specifically while still defending against everything else, your reaction is going to be closer to 30ms rather than 20ms.

Look at it this way... When going through your moves list in training, when you get to the parts to hold. Are you able to hold on reaction? You know what's coming, so the need to differentiate is no longer there, where you can react to at least 13 frame attacks. Most gamers can react to 11i punches in time.

 

[Lulu]

C'mon, 215ms is 13 frames. That's a bad joke. Maybe you can react to single stimuli in that time in a controlled environment, but not anything in a fighting game. The first few frames of the vast majority of moves are not distinct enough to tell what's what. Plus, you're also watching out for half a dozen other options. There's is absolutely no way for anyone to reliably react to anything under 18 or so frames unless it's super telegraphed from the first few frames. Unless you're watching for a specific thing at a specific time, even very good players are not gonna react to anything under 22-24 frames.

Its always nice when someone knows the difference between Reaction and Recognition.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Its always nice when someone knows the difference between Reaction and Recognition.

Hmm... To an extent. I generally consider it "reaction" vs. "anticipation". If you're in guess mode, you aren't in reaction mode. I.e. If there's any remote chance of there being more than one option to look out for, your reaction time will diminish greatly.

 

[Lulu]

Indeed..... however I'm not going to use that as an excuse to take Dragon Kicks to the face..... I've had enough.

I WILL PUNISH !!!!!

 

[NightAntilli]

Hmm... To an extent. I generally consider it "reaction" vs. "anticipation". If you're in guess mode, you aren't in reaction mode. I.e. If there's any remote chance of there being more than one option to look out for, your reaction time will diminish greatly.

Definitely true, which is why in some cases it's best to not watch out for everything. There are certain situations where the benefit of ignoring some small possibility to get hit outweighs the cost of trying to block everything. It's the difference between still being on the defensive and getting a huge advantage.

Small risk & heavy cost with smaller effort & huge reward.

 

[NightAntilli]

I finally found one of the videos of requiem that points out what @iHajinShinobi was talking about...;

I wouldn't exactly call that 7P move 'across the screen'. He was really abusing 7PP2K from mid range, but the move is really quite obvious. Again, one sidestep would do the trick. If you're unwilling to sidestep, there are more options. Blocking low, holding the low, low offensive hold, using 6H+K, using 9KK and so on. Too bad @NukNuks didn't really know what to do against it, but it's quite straightforward. The reason 7P works is more that the animations throws off the opponent's timing, rather than it really having range across the screen. It looks like some slow move, and then she blazes in quite fast.
Aside from that, Requiem gets interrupted multiple times with simple things like 66P when using it as well. At longer ranges he was still resorting to 9PP rather than 7P for obvious reasons.

The most effective use he got of 7P was still near the mid range, not long range.

His Leifang was really not that special either to be honest, and the video is not that old. He dropped a LOT of combos, could've easily done higher damage juggles in multiple occasions, playing quite predictably etc. He does know how to play the spacing game vs another Leifang better than NukNuks it seems. NukNuks' Leifang is obviously superior to his Zack, but still his Zack managed to get the better of Requiem's Leifang.

You have to remember that two Leifangs have equal opportunities at long range, but that Leifang is fighting an uphill battle against most of the cast at longer ranges. This video might not be the best example to prove 7P's viability since it's a Leifang mirror, and even then it still doesn't look convincing. He didn't really use it against Zack, and Hajin still has not provided a video with a better example either.

 

[UncleKitchener]

After longer observation and assessment of related MUs in LR I have come to the conclusion that Bass general standing is better than perceived in the American list. The Japanese list has a more accurate assessment in general especially against MUs like or MUs thought to be too disadvantageous like . The alpha MU is clearly advantageous as he gets the most advantage out of his vortex and he's still within range to use his tools and continue pressure.

The Christie and Helena MUs can still be considered disadvantageous, but recent tests have made it clearer that he has answers for both characters after gaining advantage (primarily with 6h+p) and has nitakus where opponents have very limited abare options if any. This certainly improves the numbers and gives a better perception of the MUs and what the real numbers are.

It's only at the start of a round where he is at major disadvantage and needs a solid plan, however this applies to almost the entire cast with the exception of mirror matches.

 

[NukNuks]

I finally found one of the videos of requiem that points out what @iHajinShinobi was talking about...;

His Leifang was really not that special either to be honest, and the video is not that old. He dropped a LOT of combos, could've easily done higher damage juggles in multiple occasions, playing quite predictably etc. He does know how to play the spacing game vs another Leifang better than NukNuks it seems. NukNuks' Leifang is obviously superior to his Zack, but still his Zack managed to get the better of Requiem's Leifang.

I'm a scrub