momijji match up theard

[vINv]

it might b a little early for this but ive been struggling against genfu and christie and lisa what r some thoughts on match ups

 

[Pictured Mind]

Why do people still not know her name? Alright, I just really had to ask that.

 

[Yaguar]

My thoughts so far (expanding as time goes on, posted in tier list originally)

Guess I'll have a go at some Momiji since she hasn't really been brought up. From what experience I have she goes 1 of 2 ways. The match up for her is just brutal or she's brutally taken out.

What she has going for her:
Safety and tonnes of it.
Tracking and tonnes of it.
Fairly stable mid crush ()
Lots of strong high crushes.
(?) Guaranteed setups ( MAY be fastest stagger escapable, cannot remember right now. Fast safe 100%.)
Near Guaranteed (Basically just frame counter escapable e.g. CH and CH ).
Pseudo FT setups and some other questionable stuff (CH gives a pseudo but if they counter as they fall gives sitdown, no stagger options.).
Amazing stun launch. This comes as a pro and a con in her MU's.
Solid mid range options.
i12 Feint stun (BT , can be used from (-3) which makes it i15...)
10/12/12 jabs. 12 frame low is sexy interrupt material.
escape vs. floored.
flip i12 just out of there. (Big negative, -14 but moves out of grab range if used at slight range)
is block safe. follow up makes it sidestep safe. (Downsides: Small execution window for follow up)

Where she struggles:
Some matches, winning neutral the amount she has to is hard. Christie would be a perfect example of this. Momiji's and are pretty staple for her CQC. You have a good set of crushes for dealing with her highs but Christie's (i11) and will either beat out of just stuff Momiji's moves. The hurt box for these is stupid in some cases. Some characters it works in her favour, others it makes her mid punch openers crushable.

Best BT option on block leaves her at -3. Her feint is a i12 high. It's nice but if someone wants to quickly or you, you won't win. She has to be in BT to access feint so if you're looking for feint -> free launch, you probably won't win it at neutral. That said, she has one and a lot of the cast does not.

can be stopped on reaction and it is hella unsafe. For one of her best tools she really can only use this as a valuable read or reaction crush.

For CQC she has no real quick and safe mid kick option outside of (H/M i12/i16 ends -6) which won't help vs. grapplers.

Uzukaze and Tenku are not safe and a death trap out of stun. Her Tenku finishers are also pretty reactable leaving them as fairly pointless outside of launch.

Stun Launch:
I'll highlight this on its own because it is a double edged sword.
She nets a lot of damage from a stun launch. She has the option to only have to go slightly into the stun game to capitalise huge damage which are all guesses in her favour.
Downside? You have to win neutral. Though she can sit and play the stun game you aren't really going to find Mila level damage for taking the extra risk.

Neutral game for her is pretty good at mid or CQC, mid range being her preference in a few matches (Helena/Christie without a doubt).

Her and suffer from terrible hurt boxes or just what appear to be the most awkward in the world at some points. This can make or break neutral if you're trying to scrap it out. leaves her -3 and is i13 strike 1. When her CQC match up is bad, -3 leaves her without much to do. Against some of the slower cast members she can use it a bit like a bad frame trap. She's safe... but it isn't great news if you want to carry on offence. She suffers a lot from "take a turn and wait" that is in DOA. She does have a good free step so you can play footsies a bit for the mid range. This'll net you damage.

is a great interrupt but only really lets you pressure a block rather than turning into damage since on CH you get +4.

is her best interrupt but won't work at deadlock range a lot of the time and it's a 50/50 as you'll need the stun from a follow up ( or ) to actually turn it into damage.

Final Points:
Her grabs do pretty solid damage so you can bait a lot counters. Looking at her grab damage here rather than her ability to bait as a tool (she does have a lot of that though because people just don't see 62(NH) damage as an issue till they notice their entire life was chipped away by 8:).

So onto what I feel are decent matches for her and a tiny bit of why. Probably missed a few things above and I'd like people to give feedback where they can. I'll probably miss a couple of matches I'm not 100% on because I just haven't seen people offline for those characters or don't fully understand their toolset enough to match it against Momiji's (promising start).

Match Ups:
(Vs. Name - Momiji score - Opponent Score )

Vs. Helena - 4.5 - 5.5
Pro's:
Can hold mid range.
i12
Wins mid range.

Cons:
Best crushes aren't greatly effective.
Crushes lot of CQC options for Momiji.
Stance options are numerous. isn't a 1 size fits all solution.
Can't maintain neutral pressure as well and doesn't have the same level of post tech options.
Duck heavy character (Stance), slower high options that give her setups are iffy.

Vs. Christie - 4 - 6
Pro's:
can deal with some of JAK.
"Frame Traps" are useless vs. Christie's jab speed.
Faster low i12 vs. i14.
Stronger mid range with tracking options for JAK.
deals with some mids.
Stronger grabs.
Safer.

Cons:
Not enough footwork to hold the range she needs to keep the match in her favour.
won't deal with all JAK options.
and hurt boxes are ruined by Christie's .
CQC is Christie's domain.
Christie has way more +frames and traps ( 0 on block).
Duck heavy character (Stance), slower high options that give her setups are iffy.

Vs. Rig - 6 - 4
Pro's:
Crushes.
answers to bending stance thanks to i12.
is another option and nets solid damage.
Strong high hit based setups are effective.

Cons:
Guaranteed setups.
Guard Breaks.

Notes: You're about equal at neutral but Momiji's crush game is too strong here. His offence is basically hers as well. really fits everything against Rig to change momentum and can catch out his entire high library netting instant damage from launch.

Vs. Hitomi - 5.5 - 4.5
Pro's:
Speed and mix up inside of stun.
escapes all special wake ups.
Feint stun.
Crush options are better.
Safer.
Crouched sweeping lows.

Cons:
Punch Parry.
+Frame Grabs, stronger grab options ().
Stronger single hit punishment.
-1 block options compared to -3.

Vs. Tina - 5 - 5
Pro's:
Faster.
Safer.
ruins mids, as does just outside of CQC deadlock.
Overall crush game superior.

Cons:
Offensive Holds.
Grab strength is far superior.
+Frame options.
Tina's crushes low options with ramifications.

vs. Sarah - 4.5 - 5.5
Pro's:
Mid range game.
Crush game removes some of her pressure and nets some solid damage.
Can hold mid range pretty well.

Cons:
Doesn't give a flying fuck.
Parry stance.
Frame traps.
Superior feint stun.
Flamingo low kick stun on neutral.

Notes: This honestly isn't the worst match in the world. Sarah does have an unbelievable pressure game but you have a huge number of crush options for most of her go to frame traps. She ultimately just has more tools but you have stun launch if you can nip a hit. I'd want to say that in reality this is pretty even but all in all she does have a bigger tool set.

All I have time for right now. Hope these seem right to some others and helps a bit.
Due to lack of time I've not proof read everything so I hope this is right D:

 

[Faust-san]

@Yaguar could help me a bit with some ideas to beat Helena and his nightmarish low game? I mean, she has a lot of moves from his "bakudo" stance or whatever its called, I find myself resorting a lot to 1PP in order to get her out of the stance but she has the upper hand when it comes to offensive options...

Also I find myself missing my 66PP because she has many ways of high crush but thats the only punishment Momiji has from range... I really dont get how to deal with her when we are far away or when she is on bakudo... this particular helena plays very rush down... so if you happen to know any weakness please share it with me =(! thanks in advance.

 

[Yaguar]

snip

You can't fight this one up close. Helena from a single stun is going to get you into her vortex and there isn't really an out besides a correct read/guess. That is Helena's game plan though.

You have to fight this outside of her effective range. Poke out with and even throw in a for good measure. Try to force a whiff with some fancy in and out. You will probably need to win neutral like this 4 times to clean up a round though so it's a bit rough but you might be able to take some people just using good space, keeping your distance and stunning and trying to pick her off just outside of her poke range.

The big things to watch out for are how she tries to close the gap. BOK dashing / are both unsafe but the mid option has follow ups. You can make use of to hop over here or just read and block and ruin her for it.

In CQC you don't have much. High's are pretty much out and Momiji doesn't really have anything that comes down on the opponent except for and , both are too slow.
hops lows, has follow ups and is i16. It's unsafe and so are its follow ups except for but that'll throw you into Tenku. Not a great place to be on block. For general play they wont know it is unsafe so throw it out into a block or (-9 on block).

Helena though is pretty unsafe on block. Only really her "Spinny hands" the ones that sort of all come down flying in slaps and her low punch are safe as far as her punch strings go. She has a couple of ones from kicks but they are all pretty crap as far as minus frames go. If you can block a couple you should get a strike chance but aim mid/low unless she ends standing (even then a swift BOK at -4 will see her untouchable before you can ).

Focus your efforts on not being in her range. A bit easier said than done point but if you can hold it you will beat her. Rep into a fast follow up. This'll be your best turn around at close.

Remember you are pretty much quicker at all times. Jab table looks like:
Helena: 11/12/14
Momiji: 10/12/12

Watch how your opponent closes gaps. Can you jump them or just avoid with ?
is i12, mid and has a great hitbox. It'll knockdown, set you back a bit and relieve some pressure.
hops lows but has some draw backs (listed above).
Mid range is all your game, you will win it.
CQC hope to block something unsafe, throw, get out and keep it at mid range. If they are spammy, block and go for the counter hit, you'll win, she's pretty bad for frames.
Helena does have which leads into BOK and is +1. Check what it looks like in training. Also check that and its variations leave her at -4. The rest should be i5 throw punishable with a couple of exceptions like (-5) (Not finished BOK frames yet on block so I'll let you know what is safe from that in the future).

Highlighted the key points. The rest is possibly a bit of a ramble. Basics: Stay the fuck away and you have a chance.

 

[Xernuht]

Resurrecting a dead horse, but I need some insider tips on the Ayane match-up.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Momiji can most certainly fight Helena in CQC. Jabs are not nullified in this match up at all. BKO P and BKO 6P lose to i9-i10 frame jabs. Helena also has the i12 2P to be wary about, and the 7K mid that beats her i12 3P and i12 K. Momiji can handle herself in CQC well as long as you are aware of how Helena's CQC works.

Helena has to respect Momiji's speed, Momiji has to respect BKO for lows, and BKO has to be utilized correctly if she wants to get something going more often than not in CQC.

 

[splslick]

Anyone can help me with the Brad Wong MU? I have no clue what to do against that character

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Momiji versus Brad is pretty favorable for Momiji, infact the only time the match up can be annoying is if Brad actually gets his vortex started. He has a difficult time winning the neutral game against Momiji up close and even any different ranges. You want to primarily keep Brad in check with a ton of 2P low jab utility, it'll force him to deal with it because he has nothing that is i12 frames in front turn stance that isn't a WR (while rising) move. Mix this up with jab and safe jab strings (if you prefer), with occasional 6P or 7K mids to mix up your jab and low jab poking.

Always be wary of lows from Brad, because that's the best thing about that character, especially his 1K string and 2H+K.

1K2K is two low sweeps +11 on neutral hit (second low giving frame advantage on neutral hit), while 1KK is low to mid. The mid is an uppercut stun for +28, - 7 on block. 1KKK is irrelevant on block because the last follow up is so slow and highly reactable.

If you block 1KK, you can actually just punish him with PP or PK, or a full string he has to guess at. 1KK recovers in 31 frames+5 frames it takes to turn around, so he's basically at -12 instead of -7, thus the jab punish.

A lot of Brad's strings are punishable on block;

For instance, when he's in Handstand Stance he has these moves available:

K - i11 Mid K's (can be followed up, up to "KKKK" or transition into Laydown with KK6K for eg.) (Safe on block)
P - i16 Low P that transitions into Laydown (-12 on block)
P+K i13 Mid K launcher (-11 on block)
H+K i21 Mid K stunner (Gut in CS, Limbo in OS) (Safe on block)
H+P i11 High Grab

When Brad enters Handstand, you can jab him out of it immediately with a P or if you're swift you can try a 2P although the HS K's can technically beat it out. In general you either want to be really close to Brad or out of his HS H+K range when Brad enters Handstand. At range, you can nail him with 1P+KK, 9K or 236K to knock him out of HS. When he enters the stance, and he has the advantage, prioritize Mid K Hold since all the dangerous options are Mid K's.

Brad's options from Laydown Stance:

P - i35 High P that cause a Faint Stun (Safe on block)
K - i16 Mid K launcher (-12 on block)
6K - i33 Mid K launcher (-11 on block)
H+K i20 Low K that stays in LS (-15 on block)
P+K i23 Mid K that stays in LS (-9 on block)
H~K i67 Mid K that pops Brad up (-6 on block)
H+P i17 OH

Moves from Reverse Laydown Stance (Heads towards opponent)
*Most moves are variants on the moves from normal LS

P - i23 Mid P (Safe on block)
K - i16 Mid K (-10 on block)
6K - i38 Low K (-9 on block)
P+K - i21 Mid K launcher (-11 on block)
H+K - i25 Low K (-16 on block)
H+P - i15 OH
H - i20 Low parry

Brad's options from Backturned Stance:

P - i15 High P with followups
K - i18 High K (+2 on block)
H+K - i13 Mid K (-33 on block, big pushback)
P+K - i13 High P (Safe on block)
2K - i20 Low K that transitions into LS (-15 on block)
2P - i12 Low P (-12 on block & -11 on Normal hit; has a Low K & Mid K followup)
H+P - i6 Grab (can reset his opponent for +12 or blast them away)
6P+KP - i17 Mid P's (Safe on block)
4K - i16 Mid K (-12 on block)
6K - i15 Mid K with followups including a -12 on block Low ender
4PP - i15 Mid P's (Safe on block)

When Brad is in Backturned Stance, your best bet is to prioritize crouching since the quicker moves are highs, and his BT 2P is deceptively fast and has priority over Ayane's own fast 2P. If you block 2P, be sure to be mindful of the two followups: A low K that rolls away and a Mid K that is unsafe on block and punishable by low throw. Brad can use H+K to try and interrupt your attempt at offense and "roll" away. Just block this move and use the advantage to position your self better. Beware of BT 4PP's sitdown on hit. The move is also only -6 on block. BT H+P is one of Brad's most dangerous grabs, due to its ability to reset his opponent and grant him +12 while remaining in BT stance. In fact Brad has a few "Reset grabs"

BT H+P - Grants +12 @i6
64 H+P - Grants +11 @i10
Behind H+P - Grants +8 @i5


Brad's options in Crane Stance

P - i12 High P
K - i15 High K
H+KPP - i41 Mid K followed by two Mid Ps
H+KK - i41 Mid K followed by a High K
H+P - i19 OH
4K - i13 Mid K
P+K - i19 Mid P launcher
6P - i16 Mid P with followups
66P - i20 Mid P CB

With this said, Momiji has very good buttons to make it tough for Brad to approach at different ranges;

- H+K
- 7K
- 3K
- 4K
- 44K
- 4P
- 2K
- 2H+K
- 66P

The above are what primarily helps Momiji cover all the bases during footsies in the match up, especially, H+K, 7K, 2K, 2H+K, 3K and 66P.

If you ever do block a running P (headbutt) from Brad, 4P punishes all of his options and gives you a stun to start your offense. Anything else you try using is stance specific or will just whiff on him.

@splslick

 

[Lulu]

Momiji versus Brad is pretty favorable for Momiji, infact the only time the match up can be annoying is if Brad actually gets his vortex started. He has a difficult time winning the neutral game against Momiji up close and even any different ranges. You want to primarily keep Brad in check with a ton of 2P low jab utility, it'll force him to deal with it because he has nothing that is i12 frames in front turn stance that isn't a WR (while rising) move. Mix this up with jab and safe jab strings (if you prefer), with occasional 6P or 7K mids to mix up your jab and low jab poking.

Always be wary of lows from Brad, because that's the best thing about that character, especially his 1K string and 2H+K.

1K2K is two low sweeps +11 on neutral hit (second low giving frame advantage on neutral hit), while 1KK is low to mid. The mid is an uppercut stun for +28, - 7 on block. 1KKK is irrelevant on block because the last follow up is so slow and highly reactable.

If you block 1KK, you can actually just punish him with PP or PK, or a full string he has to guess at. 1KK recovers in 31 frames+5 frames it takes to turn around, so he's basically at -12 instead of -7, thus the jab punish.

A lot of Brad's strings are punishable on block;



With this said, Momiji has very good buttons to make it tough for Brad to approach at different ranges;

- H+K
- 7K
- 3K
- 4K
- 44K
- 4P
- 2K
- 2H+K
- 66P

The above are what primarily helps Momiji cover all the bases during footsies in the match up, especially, H+K, 7K, 2K, 2H+K, 3K and 66P.

If you ever do block a running P (headbutt) from Brad, 4P punishes all of his options and gives you a stun to start your offense. Anything else you try using is stance specific or will just whiff on him.

@splslick

Some times I've had Brad Wong some how go right underneath my Mid Kick from Uzukaze PK.
I use it to avoid his floor shenanigans but it can seem glitchy sometimes.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

That is probably stance specific then. Some things in this game will behave differently depending on the characters current stance positions being in open or closed stance.

 

[Lulu]

If they're going to have stance specific combos then they should have a dedicates stance button just like MKX..... I mean that just makes sense.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

It's not the combos that are stance specific, just that certain moves will or will not hit the opponent depending on stance. But it's not problematic though, just the nature of a few interactions.

 

[Lulu]

It's not the combos that are stance specific, just that certain moves will or will not hit the opponent depending on stance. But it's not problematic though, just the nature of a few interactions.

They should have covered that in the tutorial...... and I still want that stance button.