Dizzy Lycanthrophic
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DOA5U Ayane Match-Ups Discussion
- Thread starter Gill Hustle
- Start date
I'm going to explain the Ayane vs Mila match up tomorrow.
Looking forward to it. A shame that Jefffcore dropped DOA here. His Mila tore it up! Hopefully Alex and I can go over the Ayane/Brad Match-Up over the holidays because Brad is a character that you have to know in order to fight. We're not sure if the MU is 7:3 or 6:4 for Ayane because of the tech that Alex uncovers.
From the 2nd page. What is giving you problems? Kokoro isn't that bad to Ayane if you don't let her run her shit on you and SS accordingly.
HoodsXx
Well-Known Member
I'd say if Brad was still DOA4 Brad, it'd be 7:3 for Ayane. But Brad got significantly better in Vanilla and more so in 5U. So I mean, it'd most likely be 6:4 her imo. I personally don't think he has any 7:3 MU's. Just 6:4's.
Yeah, I suspected so because of his many options for dealing with pressure from most characters not to mention his solid setups. Let's discuss some of the MU on Sunday and Monday so we can have something for next week. I do feel that Ayane can handle Brad's mix-up pressure better than most of the cast and is arguably his toughest MU. Interesting to hear that it may be just 6:4 for her instead of the 7:3 that I was suspecting.
Gotta put the match up breakdown on a short hiatus again (till next week). I've got a lot to deal with right to keep match up discussion on the brain. I'll get these out though folks, no worries.
Ayane (i10/i13/i12) vs. Brad Wong (i12/i15/i14)
The match-up of two of the best mix-up characters, with two of the largest most complex movesets in 5U. Overall, I'd say that Brad's mix-up options are a little more prolific than Ayane's but, he's also limited by his current stance, in terms of what options are available to him.
For instance, when he's in Handstand Stance he has these moves available:
K - i11 Mid K's (can be followed up, up to "KKKK" or transition into Laydown with KK6K for eg.) (Safe on block)
P - i16 Low P that transitions into Laydown (-12 on block)
P+K i13 Mid K launcher (-11 on block)
H+K i21 Mid K stunner (Gut in CS, Limbo in OS) (Safe on block)
H+P i11 High Grab
When Brad enters Handstand, you can jab him out of it immediately with a P or if you're swift you can try a 2P although the HS K's can technically beat it out. In general you either want to be really close to Brad or out of his HS H+K range when Brad enters Handstand. At range, you can nail him with 1P+KK, 9K or 236K to knock him out of HS. When he enters the stance, and he has the advantage, prioritize Mid K Hold since all the dangerous options are Mid K's.
Brad's options from Laydown Stance:
P - i35 High P that cause a Faint Stun (Safe on block)
K - i16 Mid K launcher (-12 on block)
6K - i33 Mid K launcher (-11 on block)
H+K i20 Low K that stays in LS (-15 on block)
P+K i23 Mid K that stays in LS (-9 on block)
H~K i67 Mid K that pops Brad up (-6 on block)
H+P i17 OH
Moves from Reverse Laydown Stance (Heads towards opponent)
*Most moves are variants on the moves from normal LS
P - i23 Mid P (Safe on block)
K - i16 Mid K (-10 on block)
6K - i38 Low K (-9 on block)
P+K - i21 Mid K launcher (-11 on block)
H+K - i25 Low K (-16 on block)
H+P - i15 OH
H - i20 Low parry
When Brad goes into Laydown stance, it's essentially a 50/50 between a Mid K hold or some crouching action you'll have to take such as a Low throw to beat out the OH (or toss him out of LS outright), or a low block or low hold to beat H+K. If he transitions into LS off of 236P or Running P, 4P immediately to knock him out of LS, and beware that he can parry lows such as 2P or 1P in Reverse Laydown Stance (RLS). He can also "Sidestep" LS to avoid linear lows such as 2P. Naturally LS is a "Super tech crouch" stance so it can crush horizontal mids, heavily reducing the effective moves against it. However Ayane's 4P can rape the stance in close. At range, use 9K to smash on Brad's laying down ass. You can also try 3PP if Brad is in LS at a little bit of range, since the 2nd P has similar properties to 4P (note that 4P always launches Brad for a low juggle when hitting LS).
Brad's options from Backturned Stance:
P - i15 High P with followups
K - i18 High K (+2 on block)
H+K - i13 Mid K (-33 on block, big pushback)
P+K - i13 High P (Safe on block)
2K - i20 Low K that transitions into LS (-15 on block)
2P - i12 Low P (-12 on block & -11 on Normal hit; has a Low K & Mid K followup)
H+P - i6 Grab (can reset his opponent for +12 or blast them away)
6P+KP - i17 Mid P's (Safe on block)
4K - i16 Mid K (-12 on block)
6K - i15 Mid K with followups including a -12 on block Low ender
4PP - i15 Mid P's (Safe on block)
When Brad is in Backturned Stance, your best bet is to prioritize crouching since the quicker moves are highs, and his BT 2P is deceptively fast and has priority over Ayane's own fast 2P. If you block 2P, be sure to be mindful of the two followups: A low K that rolls away and a Mid K that is unsafe on block and punishable by low throw. Brad can use H+K to try and interrupt your attempt at offense and "roll" away. Just block this move and use the advantage to position your self better. Beware of BT 4PP's sitdown on hit. The move is also only -6 on block. BT H+P is one of Brad's most dangerous grabs, due to its ability to reset his opponent and grant him +12 while remaining in BT stance. In fact Brad has a few "Reset grabs"
BT H+P - Grants +12 @i6
64 H+P - Grants +11 @i10
Behind H+P - Grants +8 @i5
If you get hit by 64 H+P, you may need to crouch immediately or mash out something like PP to avoid getting reset again by Behind H+P. A big part of Brad's gameplan is to mix-up his opponent, then reset them when they get flustered. Try to keep this reset momentum from building.
At R1F, Brad can hold his own deceptively well due to the many stances he can enter before the round starts. From neutral Brad's technically a i12/i15/i14, but at R1F Brad can gain access to his faster moves. Let's recap: In HS, Brad gains an i11 Mid K; In LS he gains an OH and a Mid K launcher with a lot of hit priority, and in BT stance he gains an i12 Low P and an i13 Mid K "interrupter". If Brad is in HS, jab immediately. If Brad is in LS, 2P immediately or back away (preferable). If Brad is in BT, prioritize BT 2P by low blocking or holding.
When in doubt, try to play a ranged game with Brad, because he'll need to get creative with how he approaches Ayane. He'll likely try 236P, Running P, or 66K (ranged Low K). He likely won't try 236P from mid range or closer so look out for 66K, since that's usually a go to choice for opening up the opponent. By and large, Ayane beats out Brad at range, but he can still mix-up you up if he's at the right range. Watch out for his crane stance because it contains moves with good priority such as H+KPP/H+KK and an OH. If he enters CS from close range, jab immediately or 2P, since his fastest attack is i12. CS 4K is also quite fast at i13. Just like with HS, either stay very close to Brad or out of the CS H+K~~~ range. Most attacks in CS are safe on block.
Brad's options in Crane Stance
P - i12 High P
K - i15 High K
H+KPP - i41 Mid K followed by two Mid Ps
H+KK - i41 Mid K followed by a High K
H+P - i19 OH
4K - i13 Mid K
P+K - i19 Mid P launcher
6P - i16 Mid P with followups
66P - i20 Mid P CB
The optimal range to fight Brad at is around Mid range or slightly further away to reduce the effectiveness of his mix-up game. When in close, from neutral, Ayane pokes much faster than Brad, however he has numerous ways to deal with faster characters in close such as 4P for crushing highs, 4P2 or(8) for crushing highs and sidestepping and of course Laydown Stance for heavily reducing an opponent's offensive options. You're not going to be using 3H+K as much in this MU as others, but 4P, 2P, 1P & 3PP can work wonders for knocking Brad out of stances and keeping his BS in check.
In DOA4 Brad struggled against Ayane, but in DOA5 Brad is a solid character with dangerous mix-ups and resets. However, Ayane is still arguably one Brad's worst MU's so I reckon this MU is 6-4 in Ayane's favour due to how well Ayane can zone Brad, her quicker overall poking speed, and her proficiency in knocking Brad out of his stances. Plus, Ayane also dominates Brad in the neutral game effectively limiting his offense when he doesn't have the advantage. Beating Brad is based almost entirely on knowing how to deal with his stances and punishing unsafe transitions & moves.
The match-up of two of the best mix-up characters, with two of the largest most complex movesets in 5U. Overall, I'd say that Brad's mix-up options are a little more prolific than Ayane's but, he's also limited by his current stance, in terms of what options are available to him.
For instance, when he's in Handstand Stance he has these moves available:
K - i11 Mid K's (can be followed up, up to "KKKK" or transition into Laydown with KK6K for eg.) (Safe on block)
P - i16 Low P that transitions into Laydown (-12 on block)
P+K i13 Mid K launcher (-11 on block)
H+K i21 Mid K stunner (Gut in CS, Limbo in OS) (Safe on block)
H+P i11 High Grab
When Brad enters Handstand, you can jab him out of it immediately with a P or if you're swift you can try a 2P although the HS K's can technically beat it out. In general you either want to be really close to Brad or out of his HS H+K range when Brad enters Handstand. At range, you can nail him with 1P+KK, 9K or 236K to knock him out of HS. When he enters the stance, and he has the advantage, prioritize Mid K Hold since all the dangerous options are Mid K's.
Brad's options from Laydown Stance:
P - i35 High P that cause a Faint Stun (Safe on block)
K - i16 Mid K launcher (-12 on block)
6K - i33 Mid K launcher (-11 on block)
H+K i20 Low K that stays in LS (-15 on block)
P+K i23 Mid K that stays in LS (-9 on block)
H~K i67 Mid K that pops Brad up (-6 on block)
H+P i17 OH
Moves from Reverse Laydown Stance (Heads towards opponent)
*Most moves are variants on the moves from normal LS
P - i23 Mid P (Safe on block)
K - i16 Mid K (-10 on block)
6K - i38 Low K (-9 on block)
P+K - i21 Mid K launcher (-11 on block)
H+K - i25 Low K (-16 on block)
H+P - i15 OH
H - i20 Low parry
When Brad goes into Laydown stance, it's essentially a 50/50 between a Mid K hold or some crouching action you'll have to take such as a Low throw to beat out the OH (or toss him out of LS outright), or a low block or low hold to beat H+K. If he transitions into LS off of 236P or Running P, 4P immediately to knock him out of LS, and beware that he can parry lows such as 2P or 1P in Reverse Laydown Stance (RLS). He can also "Sidestep" LS to avoid linear lows such as 2P. Naturally LS is a "Super tech crouch" stance so it can crush horizontal mids, heavily reducing the effective moves against it. However Ayane's 4P can rape the stance in close. At range, use 9K to smash on Brad's laying down ass. You can also try 3PP if Brad is in LS at a little bit of range, since the 2nd P has similar properties to 4P (note that 4P always launches Brad for a low juggle when hitting LS).
Brad's options from Backturned Stance:
P - i15 High P with followups
K - i18 High K (+2 on block)
H+K - i13 Mid K (-33 on block, big pushback)
P+K - i13 High P (Safe on block)
2K - i20 Low K that transitions into LS (-15 on block)
2P - i12 Low P (-12 on block & -11 on Normal hit; has a Low K & Mid K followup)
H+P - i6 Grab (can reset his opponent for +12 or blast them away)
6P+KP - i17 Mid P's (Safe on block)
4K - i16 Mid K (-12 on block)
6K - i15 Mid K with followups including a -12 on block Low ender
4PP - i15 Mid P's (Safe on block)
When Brad is in Backturned Stance, your best bet is to prioritize crouching since the quicker moves are highs, and his BT 2P is deceptively fast and has priority over Ayane's own fast 2P. If you block 2P, be sure to be mindful of the two followups: A low K that rolls away and a Mid K that is unsafe on block and punishable by low throw. Brad can use H+K to try and interrupt your attempt at offense and "roll" away. Just block this move and use the advantage to position your self better. Beware of BT 4PP's sitdown on hit. The move is also only -6 on block. BT H+P is one of Brad's most dangerous grabs, due to its ability to reset his opponent and grant him +12 while remaining in BT stance. In fact Brad has a few "Reset grabs"
BT H+P - Grants +12 @i6
64 H+P - Grants +11 @i10
Behind H+P - Grants +8 @i5
If you get hit by 64 H+P, you may need to crouch immediately or mash out something like PP to avoid getting reset again by Behind H+P. A big part of Brad's gameplan is to mix-up his opponent, then reset them when they get flustered. Try to keep this reset momentum from building.
At R1F, Brad can hold his own deceptively well due to the many stances he can enter before the round starts. From neutral Brad's technically a i12/i15/i14, but at R1F Brad can gain access to his faster moves. Let's recap: In HS, Brad gains an i11 Mid K; In LS he gains an OH and a Mid K launcher with a lot of hit priority, and in BT stance he gains an i12 Low P and an i13 Mid K "interrupter". If Brad is in HS, jab immediately. If Brad is in LS, 2P immediately or back away (preferable). If Brad is in BT, prioritize BT 2P by low blocking or holding.
When in doubt, try to play a ranged game with Brad, because he'll need to get creative with how he approaches Ayane. He'll likely try 236P, Running P, or 66K (ranged Low K). He likely won't try 236P from mid range or closer so look out for 66K, since that's usually a go to choice for opening up the opponent. By and large, Ayane beats out Brad at range, but he can still mix-up you up if he's at the right range. Watch out for his crane stance because it contains moves with good priority such as H+KPP/H+KK and an OH. If he enters CS from close range, jab immediately or 2P, since his fastest attack is i12. CS 4K is also quite fast at i13. Just like with HS, either stay very close to Brad or out of the CS H+K~~~ range. Most attacks in CS are safe on block.
Brad's options in Crane Stance
P - i12 High P
K - i15 High K
H+KPP - i41 Mid K followed by two Mid Ps
H+KK - i41 Mid K followed by a High K
H+P - i19 OH
4K - i13 Mid K
P+K - i19 Mid P launcher
6P - i16 Mid P with followups
66P - i20 Mid P CB
The optimal range to fight Brad at is around Mid range or slightly further away to reduce the effectiveness of his mix-up game. When in close, from neutral, Ayane pokes much faster than Brad, however he has numerous ways to deal with faster characters in close such as 4P for crushing highs, 4P2 or(8) for crushing highs and sidestepping and of course Laydown Stance for heavily reducing an opponent's offensive options. You're not going to be using 3H+K as much in this MU as others, but 4P, 2P, 1P & 3PP can work wonders for knocking Brad out of stances and keeping his BS in check.
In DOA4 Brad struggled against Ayane, but in DOA5 Brad is a solid character with dangerous mix-ups and resets. However, Ayane is still arguably one Brad's worst MU's so I reckon this MU is 6-4 in Ayane's favour due to how well Ayane can zone Brad, her quicker overall poking speed, and her proficiency in knocking Brad out of his stances. Plus, Ayane also dominates Brad in the neutral game effectively limiting his offense when he doesn't have the advantage. Beating Brad is based almost entirely on knowing how to deal with his stances and punishing unsafe transitions & moves.
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HoodsXx
Well-Known Member
Just to note. For his grab its 4 H+P. And from there BT H+P is guaranteed. But he can still go for his old options being 9K into a force tech PP2K or a juggle which then creates some distance if he chooses to go for H+K as the ender instead of 2PK. Also to note. If he's in LHT after running P. Your best option imo is to probably 6PK since its quick and deals with his LHT 8. On top of that with 3PP or 4P he can use his low parry (LHT H) to negate the stun since he's technically in standing position letting himself get hit on NH abd then punishing accordingly. Just some things to note Force. Other than that great write up.
Thanks for these Alex. Brad Wong was an absolute pain in the ass to study. I got a headache just trying to figure out how he works. Thanks for the matches yesterday! Haha, I noticed that the low parry, cancelled the Laydown stance, and thus negated the CH status. Looked weird...
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HoodsXx
Well-Known Member
Yeah the reason for that is because like a sabaki or an OH because its technically still a strike within a throw it negates CH status if the move you use doesn't normally stun on NH. And since LHT H he's still on standing and not in crouching status he just gets hit standing therefore NH 4P.
Added the Brad match up the DOA5U match up list thread.
Thanks iHajin. I'll try and work on more Ayane match ups in the future if I can in order to help you save time on it. Alex's DOA knowledge is outstanding and very helpful. I would like to work on the Pai MU with him if possible, because I remember him having a pretty solid Pai when I faced him in a tournament last October. She's another character that you need to know in order to beat consistently, though this MU is not necessarily in Ayane's favour like the Brad MU.
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Honestly, I have a ton of experience in the Pai match up, so I'll tackle that soon. It's just a matter of me taking out more time to explain more match ups.
Ah, no problem, I wasn't sure if you were still tackling that MU. Another MU I'm looking into is the Jacky MU, however, I don't get to see the VF player in my scene that often.
Any progress on the Mila Match-Up?
HoodsXx
Well-Known Member
@Force_of_Nature in like a months time we'll go over Marie MU for this. I still think its Shana favor definitely but we'll go over it still lol.
I'm going to go over the LeiFang & Eliot MU's with @StrikerSashi. We've done enough matches together to see how the characters fare against each other.