DOA5U Ayane Match-Ups Discussion

[Force_of_Nature]

Ayane (i10/i13/i12) vs. Bass (i13/i15/i17)

The "David vs. Goliath" Match-Up of DOA5U, Ayane vs. Bass. The biggest, most imposing dude in the game versus the smallest (well before that pipsqueak Marie Rose came along), yet extremely nimble kunoichi, Ayane. However, this MU is not necessarily a case of "Big Damage" versus "Little Damage". That would be Pai vs. Bass for the most part. Yeah, when Bass hits you it hurts, but Ayane can still dish out the hurt against the big man despite his weight. Although not exactly exclusive to Ayane, it is good to know that her poking speed dominates Bass' on every hit level. This is particularly nice because Ayane's neutral pokes and strikes are designed to both deal with faster character's offense or to lock down slower characters by having them freeze up at the threat of being CH (or even whiff punished when Ayane's BT8P & 1P+K movement is involved) for a potentially big damage setup. This is helped out even more by Ayane's excellent hi-crushing capability. You want the big man to stay put and know his place!

Here's a rundown of Bass' pokes:

P = i13/ -2 on block/ +0 on hit/ 13 dmg (High P)
6P = i15/ -4 on block/ -3 on hit/ 24 dmg (Tracking Mid P)
K = i14/ +2 on block/ -1 on hit/ 33 dmg (High K +GB)
6K = i14/ -10 on block/ +14 on hit/ 26 dmg (Mid K)
2P = i17/ -7 on block/ -5 on hit/ 5 dmg (Low P)
2K = i16/ -10 on block/ +0 on hit/ 12 dmg (Low K, Unsafe)
P+K = i12/ -8 on block/ +26 on hit/ 26 dmg (High P, Unsafe)
3K = i15/ -7 on block/ +5 on hit/ 26 dmg (Mid K)
1K = i18/ -12 on block/ -6 on hit/ 18 dmg (Low K)
1P = i22/ -16 on block/ +12 on hit/ 26 dmg (Tracking Low P)
4P = i17/ -4 on block/ +0 on hit/ 16 dmg (Tracking Mid P)

Strings off of main pokes

P
PPP (HHM) (-GB)
PP2P (HHL) (Tracking, Unsafe)
PPK (HHH) (+GB)
PKP (HMM)
PKK (HMH)

6P
6PP (MM) (Tracking, -GB)
6PK (MH) (Tracking, Unsafe)

6K
6KP (MM) (Unsafe)
6KK (ML) (Unsafe)

2P
2PP (LH) (Unsafe)

3K
3KP (MM)
3KK (MH)

1K
1KP (LM) (Unsafe)

1P
1PP (LM) (Tracking, -GB)
1PP+K (LH) (Tracking, Unsafe)

4P
4PPP (MMM) (Tracking, +GB)
4PPP+K (MMH) (Tracking, Unsafe)

A good thing to note in this MU is knowing what's advantage on block and what's negative. Like most characters, Bass is usually slightly unsafe if you were to block a string ender, however he is safe on any of his "negative" Guard Breaks for the most part and is safe on strings such as variations of 3KP (only -2 on block) or variations of 9K like 3KK (only -4 on block). Since Bass is so much slower than Ayane (and more than 2/3's of the cast), you can confidently poke back at him since he'll have to respect your speed and striking ability. Be sure to punish 6KP (-11 on block) every time you block it since it is a go to string to set up Bass' brutal oki game. Punishing P+K would also help out in this MU to discourage Bass' fastest poke and a key CH stun tool. 1P/1PP is the main low attack to look out for (along with 1K) due to its instant hi-crush capability and tracking. Try to hold the 2nd hit on reaction, but be wary of 1PP+K as a "mix-up attempt" (which is unsafe like P+K).

Bass' Positive Guard Breaks

K = i14/ +2
4PPP = i17/ +6
33PP = i16/ +5
2H+K = i27/ +1
66P+K = i19/ +0
8H+K = i20/ +2
214P = i27/ +3
66K = i18/ +3
236P = i20/ +4
41236P+K = i21/ +6
7PP = i22/ +10 when fully charged
1P+K = i40/ +6 (+24 when fully charged)
7P+K = i40/ +16 when PB is active and charged

Probably the biggest key to working this MU is knowing which GB's are + and which are -. Good GB's like 66K or 33PP you have to watch out for, but feel free to poke back after blocking fraudulent GB's like 6PP or 1PP. After you block a positive GB your primary response should be to continue blocking, however you can also work Ayane's 2P to try and discourage most of Bass' follow-up options after a GB. The downside of continuous blocking is leaving your self open to Bass' fast OH's such as 66T or 41236T. Using hi-crush moves such as 2P or 1P can be a nice deterrent to Bass' highs and throws forcing him to have to try and continue pressure with a mid such as 6P, 4P, 6K or 3K for example. His go to lows, 1P & 1K aren't particularly fast and can be out-poked by 2P under most circumstances (Bass' 2PP is Low-High so the second hit is crouch-able). For the strings that lead into GB's you can generally hold the last hit if you're sharp and watching out for it.

Bass' Offensive Holds techniques

66T = i16/ 42 dmg
41236T = i18/ 45 dmg
41236T (Charged) = i32/ 68 dmg
41236T (Charged) ~23698T~82T = i37/ 90 dmg
8T = i32/ 52 dmg (Jumping OH)
3T = i10/ 52 dmg (Low OH)
BT T = i10/ +15 on hit
BT 2T = i10/ 30 dmg/ +10 on hit (Low OH)

Once Bass has you on the defensive he will try to work in his OH's into his battle strategy. You don't really want that. Use 2P's and 1P's against OH attempts (OH's can still catch hi-crush mids such as 4P or 6P). Though if you know he'll OH you, you can always throw him with something like 214T for 99 dmg on Hi-counter!

Likely the largest equalizer in this MU is this throw: 6T. i6/ 50 dmg/ +10 on hit. Any time Bass blocks something about -7 or worse, you're likely eating a 6T for your troubles. All of sudden, strings like 6PK become notably unsafe. When you have Bass on the defensive, he'll be looking to start his offense with this throw. If you get hit by it, you'll have to eat Bass' mix-ups. You can attempt to fuzzy guard afterwards though his follow-up attack speeds can vary a fair bit based on how he desires to continue the attack (i.e. a GB, an OH, a quick strike like 6K or he can throw out another 6T to annoy you and reset the situation). If he's not following up with quick strikes like 6K or 6P, for example, then you can get away with occasionally 2Ping him.

The other strong equalizer is Bass' Pick-up, Grounded 2T. i7/ +13 on hit. Anytime Bass scores a hard knockdown, he will generally try to "Pick you up" with 2T if you're nearby, or not teching the knockdown. If you get grabbed by this, the same rules apply like if you got hit by 6T. Try to predict his striking and OH pattern to know when to take defensive action, or when to attack with something like 2P.

Overall, Ayane's greatest strength in this MU is her ability to zone out Bass. Once you have him at mid-range or further, he's gunna try to get in on you with attacks such as 66P+K, 6H+K, 66K or run-up 3K for example. None of the attacks he'll approach with are advantage on block (66P+K is +0 which is, like, -5 for Bass anyway), except one, so you can attack after blocking anything. That is except 66K which is +3 and leaves Bass BT'ed. If you block 66K be very wary of BT T, an OH that sets up very damaging combos. He also has a low BT OH if you choose to crouch after blocking 66K. In this situation you may have to guess a little but the advantage is only +3 so your 2P (or 5P if you're feeling frisky) may be able to stuff quite a bit of options. Your main focus will be to look out for the BT OH and try to note what follow-ups he may use (6K, 6P & 4P tend to be likely follow-up pokes after a +GB).

To keep out Bass, use strikes like 3H+K, 3KK, 3P, BT3KK (be careful of his 6H+K), BT2P, BT4H+K, P4P, or 6PK (Try to hit the K at tip range) for example.

By and large I actually think the Bass MU is closer than may appear on paper due to how well Bass can punish Ayane, one of the more unsafe characters in the cast. Bass' 6T is always a threat ready to punish any costly mistakes. I'd say the MU is about 5.5-4.5 (5-5 if rounded) Ayane mainly because of her ability to zone out Bass and dominating him speed wise in close, coupled with her crushes. Though Bass' weight will limit your damage somewhat, especially with Ayane's main damage coming from juggles. Ayane being a Lightweight also allows Bass additional damage to some of his juggles. But that doesn't really change the fact that Ayane will be hitting Bass much more often than he's hitting you if you can keep your poking, spacing and movement in check. However, as soon as Bass hits that 6T or gets a Pick-up, the tables can be quickly turned and a lot of hurt will follow. Do not let that happen!

Sidenote: I used Santa Bass as the subject .

 

[UncleKitchener]

@Mr. Wah

 

[Matt Ponton]

Good write up. Yes, Ayane has a slight advantage but not enough to make it 6-4. Don't forget his BT4k tracks and is mid hitting SDS which guarantees 33p launcher into his +6/+13 blender. Additionally, worry about his WR 4p+k. It high crushes into a lift stun setting up his BT4k game since you're in stun, he's back turned, and he can throw punish a hold attempt with his BTh+p guaranteeing him 9pp 33p into blender or danger zone air throw. His WR 4p+k is also +0 on guard setting up his BT OH and 4K game.

If the bass is experienced with it he can duck Ayane's 66kk4 and throw punish with a grizzly launcher, worse if standing in water. So don't just throw it out there as it can do a lot of damage, including multiple ground and wall danger zone damage.

Bass excels at the mid and long range game. He doesn't like being up close and that's why his close range tools are primarily used to get the oki game. You're right he would primarily use 66k for getting in at mid range as it sets him up for his best close range game on a blocker. Be careful trying to hold the mid kick or stepping as he has a damaging running throw option and can throw in 66p+k as well. 66p+k is +0 to +6 depending on distance when its hit.

Both characters are going to be playing the spacing game here, its just a matter on who gets the hit first. Its probably thee purest 5-5 in the game.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Good write up. Yes, Ayane has a slight advantage but not enough to make it 6-4. Don't forget his BT4k tracks and is mid hitting SDS which guarantees 33p launcher into his +6/+13 blender. Additionally, worry about his WR 4p+k. It high crushes into a lift stun setting up his BT4k game since you're in stun, he's back turned, and he can throw punish a hold attempt with his BTh+p guaranteeing him 9pp 33p into blender or danger zone air throw. His WR 4p+k is also +0 on guard setting up his BT OH and 4K game.

If the bass is experienced with it he can duck Ayane's 66kk4 and throw punish with a grizzly launcher, worse if standing in water. So don't just throw it out there as it can do a lot of damage, including multiple ground and wall danger zone damage.

Bass excels at the mid and long range game. He doesn't like being up close and that's why his close range tools are primarily used to get the oki game. You're right he would primarily use 66k for getting in at mid range as it sets him up for his best close range game on a blocker. Be careful trying to hold the mid kick or stepping as he has a damaging running throw option and can throw in 66p+k as well. 66p+k is +0 to +6 depending on distance when its hit.

Both characters are going to be playing the spacing game here, its just a matter on who gets the hit first. Its probably thee purest 5-5 in the game.

Thanks for the input Sorwah. CH 3K into 33P launch is always a huge threat indeed (which is commonly set up after BT OH's). Actually, you shouldn't throw out 66KK4 freely against most characters because of the duckable second hit along with being easily swatted out of it if used from range. I used to think that Ayane (and Kasumi) used to dominate Bass, but the more you learn the game, the more you learn how overrated speed is and how underrated Bass is in 5U. I also suspect that Kasumi/Bass is also a similarly close MU due to how well Bass can punish and hurt her for big damage. After playing out the MU's, Kasumi/Bass can easily become a back-and-forth contest for instance.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Keep in mind that 5K (same with 3H+K but just don't whiff it badly) can stuff most of Bass' approaches. BT2K will go right under 66K.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Came across something really beneficial recently in the Kasumi match up.

If Kasumi attempts to do a 66K~K on block, Ayane can 8P to get behind her for free on reaction. Kasumi is unable to make an action for i16 frames if you 8P to get behind her, so she's getting punished for 60+ damage, guaranteed.

The next Kasumi player I play that does 66K~K on block to me, I'm going to start blowing that shit up.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Came across something really beneficial recently in the Kasumi match up.

If Kasumi attempts to do a 66K~K on block, Ayane can 8P to get behind her for free on reaction. Kasumi is unable to make an action for i16 frames if you 8P to get behind her, so she's getting punished for 60+ damage, guaranteed.

The next Kasumi player I play that does 66K~K on block to me, I'm going to start blowing that shit up.

As if Ayane didn't already make Kasumi's life miserable lol . Nice find!

When we getting the Kasumi MU bro? (Though I don't mind looking into it since I'm fairly familiar with her).

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Oh I'll get that up soon. I have a ton of experience in that match up and it paid off when I fought Shade Swifteye in top 8 this year. It's a rather easy one for me (provided you aren't sloppy).

 

[Force_of_Nature]

It's a very interesting MU, and I happen to like both characters. I'm interested in your opinion on the MU since the general view on it can vary a fair bit (I will also say that things can get quite interesting if you're fighting in small quarters stages!).

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I haven't had any problems fighting any character on smaller stages. Kasumi can't exactly use her mids as a primary neutral tool in the match up either because Ayane's advance holds will ruin her life;

If I knew what I know now, back then, lol.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Interesting, I knew that Ayane doesn't struggle per se in smaller stages, along with delivering devastating environmental damage, however I noticed that the MU does tilt a bit in Kasumi's favour when fighting in smaller spaces. Though I shouldn't be using online to gauge the MU *derp*, since no one in my scene really uses Kasumi. In open space, I find that Kasumi noticeably ends up struggling against Ayane. It's one of the more intriguing MU's!

 

[iHajinShinobi]

From my experience, I don't necessarily feel neither character is at any real disadvantage against the other, whether up close or at any kind of distance. Because Ayane has everything to fight Kasumi, and Kasumi has everything to fight Ayane. Speed has never put Ayane at a disadvantage in any of her match ups (it is only a little tougher with Genfu due to what his parries guarantee him on success but that's the only thing about that particular match up).

The sister match up, I feel, is entirely momentum based. You are to play as precise as possible as Ayane, and vice versa. If either character does not know how to fight the other well, then the other has a bigger advantage due to a lack of match up knowledge.

A huge upside though is that Ayane definitely has more tools to force a situation (I mean, that's a given because that's exactly what her jab does on block), and we have strikes and guard breaks that actually give us really good advantageous situations (BT6K). When Kasumi does not.

The reason why "I" have an easier time with the match up is simply due to the fact that it's a match up I've played the most throughout the DOA5 series. I know it enough to know what's going on in the mind of the Kasumi player to where my decison making will normally be very precise. If I'm being stupid about something then I have to rethink a certain situation, but that doesn't take long at all.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Yes, Ayane's tools are pretty much designed to deal with faster characters (which is interesting considering that Ayane isn't exactly slow anyway lol).

I have the strangest feeling that you made at least one Kasumi player salty with your Ayane antics lol.

Edit: I just tried out your Kasumi 66K~K/8P trick. That shit is crazy LOL O_O!

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Have Hayate be the training dummy, record him doing PP6[P] up close as you're blocking. Now do Ayane's 5K after he does PP, and see what happens.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

WOW! You're trolling Hayate now too ? I thought Ayane looked up to her big bro lol. Shit's still hilarious though. I bet you can get Ayane to troll the whole cast in some way...

 

[iHajinShinobi]

I don't really feel like Ayane vs Genfu is a bad match up for Ayane, at all. I think none of us just had better experience for it at an earlier time and came to a conclusion too soon. Throughout the year I've never felt overwhelmed by Genfu unless it was Sweet Revenge, then some time after, I didn't feel that way anymore.

I started feeling like there are just certain bits to the match up I didn't understand, but I have a better understanding of months afterward, especially now.

I'm going to re-evaluate this match up at some point, and get some others out there. The tools our character has have been overlooked by a lot of others, including us.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Ayane (i10/i13/i12) vs. Eliot (i10/i14/i15)

The two youngest members of the cast go at it here, how cute! (*Ahem* I'll just pretend Marie Rose & Honoka don't exist...). Eliot is a dodgy one because you don't see him get utilized that often and when he's throwing strings out, it looks like he's just flailing random moves at all hit levels. As you can guess, Eliot excels at making you wonder just what the fuck he's doing when he's on the offense in close. To be fair, Ayane excels at that too, but Eliot has a lot more string variation to worry about in contrast. If you don't know how Eliot's strings work, he will run rings around you. It's cliché, but knowing is half the battle! Oh, and Eliot has a 10-hit string!

Eliot's Neutral Pokes

P = i10/ -1 on block/ -1 on hit/ 10 dmg (High P)
6P = i14/ -12 on block/ -11 on hit/ 18 dmg (Mid P)
K = i13/ -10 on block/ -1 on hit/ 20 dmg (High K)
6K = i21/ -10 on block/ +19 on hit/ 20 dmg (Mid K)
2P = i15/ -4 on block/ +0 on hit/ 5 dmg (Low P)
2K = i15/ -7 on block/ -2 on hit/ 12 dmg (Low K, Unsafe)
3K = i14/ -8 on block/ +5 on hit/ 20 dmg (Mid K)
1K = i18/ -9 on block/ -7 on hit/ 15 dmg (Low K)
1P = i17/ -19 on block/ -18 on hit/ 10 dmg (Low P)
4P = i15/ -9 on block/ -8 on hit/ 18 dmg (Mid P)
4K = i16/ -6 on block/ +1 on hit/ 24 dmg (Tracking Mid K)
6PP = i15/ -13 on block/ +21 on hit/ 22 dmg (Mid P)
P+K = i18/ -9 on block/ -6 on hit/ 20 dmg (Mid P)

Strings off of Main Pokes

P
PPP (HHM) (Unsafe)
PP46P (HHM) (-GB)
PPK (HHH) (Tracking, Unsafe)
PP2P (HHL) (Unsafe)
PP4P (HMH) (Unsafe)

6P
6PPP (MHM) (Unsafe)
6PPK (MHH) (Tracking, Unsafe)
6PP2P (MHL) (Unsafe)

K
KK (HH) (Tracking)
K2P (HL) (Unsafe)

6K
6KK (MH) (Tracking, Unsafe)
6K2KP (MLM) (Unsafe)

3K
3KP (MM) (Unsafe)

1K
1KPP (LHM) (Unsafe)
1KPK (LHH) (Tracking, Unsafe)
1KP46P (LHM) (-GB)
1K4PP (LMH) (Unsafe)
1KP2P (LHL) (Unsafe)

1P
1PPPPPP (LMHMHM) (Unsafe)
1PPPPPK (LMHMHH) (Tracking, Unsafe)
1PPPPP2P (LMHMHL) (Unsafe)
1PPK (LMM) (Tracking, Unsafe)
1PP2K (LML) (Unsafe)

4P
4PPPPP (MHMHM) (Unsafe)
4PPPPK (MHMHH) (Tracking, Unsafe)
4PPPP2P (MHMHL) (Unsafe)

66P
66PPPPP (MHMHM) (Unsafe)
66PPPPK (MHMHH) (Tracking, Unsafe)
66PPPP2P (MHMHL) (Unsafe)
66P6P (MM) (Unsafe)
66P46P (MM) (-GB)

P+K
P+KPPPPP (MMHMHM) (Unsafe)
P+KPPPPK (MMHMHH) (Tracking, Unsafe)
P+KPPPP2P (MMHMHL) (Unsafe)
P+KP6P (MMM) (Unsafe)
P+KP46P (MMM) (-GB)

The Dreaded 10-hit String
P+KPP+KPKPPPP+KP (MMMHHMMMMM) (Unsafe)

Strings, so many strings... The number one thing to fighting Eliot is to not allow him to overwhelm you with his strings. In particular try to familiarize yourself with his 1P, 4P, 66P, and P+K strings because those are the lengthiest ones. Most strings tend to alternate between mid and high strikes. And technically on paper, majority of the strings are unsafe on block, but he'll have to finish the string first, which naturally isn't that often. Take note also that most strings have either a Mid P, Tracking High K, or Low P ender. They're all unsafe if blocked. When on the defensive against Eliot, be patient and look for an opportunity to 2P under a high strike. If he finishes a string, throw punish accordingly. Eliot's only real tracking options involve either High K string enders, 4K or 1PPK, so side step is an option. Note that his 46P's are safe, yet negative guard break string enders.

Eliot at Mid-Long Range

66P+K = i25/ +4 on block/ Knockback on hit/ 40 dmg (Mid P, +GB)
236K = i27/ +3 on block/ Knockback on hit/ 52 dmg (High K, +GB)
2H+K = i23/ -12 on block/ +1 on hit/ 20 dmg/ (Low K with follow-up)

At range, Eliot is likely to try and get in with either 66P+K or 236K. He may also utilize the sneaky 2H+K low that stuns on hit and has a Mid P follow-up. 9K or 236K if you anticipate a 2H+K. 66P+K & 236K are a bit of a 50/50 between a Mid P & and a High K. If you block either, Eliot will be at advantage, however his mid & low attacks are a bit on the slow side so you usually can sneak in a 2P or a P if you can anticipate that he may attempt a slower follow-up. 66P+K also pushes back quite a bit too, so you can attempt a backdash as well after that to further the space between you and Eliot.

There isn't really an optimal range to fight Eliot at because his strings can be overwhelming in close and his ranged options aren't exactly weak. However, Ayane's neutral poking speed does outpace Eliot's, with her 2P and 5P being great tools in this MU, allowing her to halt any momentum that he may generate from his string pressure. Overall it would be better to fight Eliot at range as long as you familiarize yourself with his ranged guard breaks and 2H+K, since he will try to pressure you with long strings in close range. Whenever you CH Eliot though, such as with 5KK, you can make him feel the pain from your juggles since he is just a lightweight despite being rather slow in neutral. He does have an i9 strike in 7P however, though it doesn't really grant him advantage, along with pushing you away from him. It's simply a "get-off-me" move for him.

Also be careful of 236T & 214T. 236T is an i12 launcher throw and 214T is a 45 dmg, i10 reset throw that grants +10 advantage for Eliot. When Eliot has you locked down, he will try to hit one of these two throws. Make regular use of 2P's and 5P's to discourage their use. If he's nailing you with strings, SE the stuns, since his strings in particular are quite vulnerable to being SE'ed then blocked; then try to note when he's trying to throw you.

All things considered, I'd likely say this MU is 6-4 in Ayane's favour due to her much better neutral poking speed, and stronger juggle damage. Eliot can hold his own at range, though Ayane's movement allows her to fight at range a little more comfortably. Basically, as long as you don't let Eliot mindfuck you with his strings and reset throws, this shouldn't really be a tough MU for Ayane. But as implied earlier, knowing is half the battle and knowledge is power !

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Its actually not difficult fighting Eliot at any range, at all. His ranged stuff is obvious and its fairly easy to make him commit if you're not going to give him anything to try hitting. Eliot may have good range on some things, but he is not fearful at range in this match up (same for Momiji vs Eliot). 66P+K is easy to bait out. Eliot is also not being mindful at all if he's trying to close distance with 236K, thats easily crouched on reaction (were not using online as reference ever because of lag). Ayane has nothing to fear whenever someone is trying to dragon kick as an approach.

His strings are also pretty subpar once you know what they are. Eliot is only really annoying up close when he's using 9P correctly. Which is to interupt the opponent's neutral during string delay or free cancels on read.

His parries are also only ever annoying if he notices your poking is in a predictable pattern (which should never happen as Ayane). Otherwise, his parries aren't serving a great purpose in the match up.

The match up is favorable for Ayane because she makes the CQC and range battles difficult for him. Every single one of her tools are very effective in the match up without actually limiting her. He doesn't have the ability to limit her toolbox. There is no mindfuck going on with his strings, most all end up in the same places, high and mid. When you actually learn where his strings end up, side step and 2P blow him the fuck up.

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I was trying to be nice to Eliot lol , but yeah, it does seem the more you get used to him the more limited he becomes. His stuns aren't the greatest either. I forgot to mention his parries (or things like his Mid P hold), but yeah they're not exactly that much of a threat like GenFu's. The MU does seem like a massive pain in the ass for him. Makes it seem like the MU may even be 6.5-3.5 or 7-3.

 

[iHajinShinobi]

Don't get me wrong, he can do things and can some pressure if you allow him to. He has good damage but he has to work hard for it.