DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[UprisingJC]

Alright, here's my current position on Hayabusa's match-ups.

Helena 4-6
So, this shouldn’t come as much of a surprise. Helena is technically a bit slower, but she more than makes up for it with crushes. Her hold 3P, for example, crushes mid and high during certain frames, including my 6P. And at 13 frames (20 damage), it beats out literally every strike I have. My only options are block, hold or SS. So Helena doesn’t really give a damn that she’s a tad bit slower. She has insane delays, great mix-up pressure, oki pressure, some damn tricky safety (as Requiem has illustrated many-a-time) and gets resets for days to maintain momentum. She essentially has the neutral game advantage and the ability to maintain pressure after it begins very, very well. Ryu really is forced into trying to guess out with holds and other means. Trying to initiate an offense from Ryu is tough here due to her crushing highs, crushing mids (BKO duck, etc.), and him having garbage lows. It should also be noted that Helena is heavier than Ryu for some reason. Ryu’s advantages here are in hold damage, throw damage and ranged tools. Helena can be tricky to close in on, but Ryu does have long-range options that she must respect. Ultimately, I don’t feel these make up for how difficult it is for Ryu to begin an offense. Helena controls this match-up and the favor goes to her.

She's a pain to most of the characters in a close range.
However, she relies heavily on (mid) punches like Leon and Kasumi, doesn't she?

Kasumi 4-6
Kasumi is Kasumi. She doesn’t magically change into a different character when fighting Ryu. So, you’re going to hear most of the predictable stuff here. She’s lightning fast and able to apply pressure from close and medium range. She has excellent mix-ups and some nice juggles and throw damage for how well she can initiate an offense. She’s also quite mobile, and has some very strange properties (such as unholdable attacks) that can be tricky to work around. But, these are offset by lower per-strike damage and a good deal of unsafety. Ryu likes unsafety because his punish throws are, well, punishing. Ryu has the superior damage output in strikes, throws and holds. He takes advantage over her at long range, but doesn’t do so well in close/mid-range. He also nets more from the environment. What really gives him trouble, however, is Kasumi’s parry, which is far superior to his own. This combined with the general importance of controlling the neutral game makes me feel like this match-up is in her favor.

I have some questions about this paragraph:

1.What are the nice juggles you refer to?

2.What are the unholdable attacks? H+K? 3PP? New 66KK on block or?

3.Kasumi is supposed to be a character that also relies heavily on punches unlike Hitomi or some other characters. Isn't that a feature that gave Ryu some chance to net some damage from holds?

4.This question is not that related to this MU. I personally would like to know how you define a "neutral game"? I've heard this term a lot but people seem to have different definition for it.

Leon 5-5
Oh, Leon. Leon gets higher damage on the 13 frame mid, so he wins there. Ryu’s high is 1 frame faster, but also leads into less options than Leon’s 11 frame high, which has some scary mix-ups. So for speed, like with Bayman, Ryu is not faster. Leon is in general safer, with several strings at -1 or positive guard breaks on charge. Additionally, Leon’s mix-ups are stronger. That may sound strange, since Leon is the most infamous mid P hound in the game, but allow me to explain. From his jab, Leon can use the following options to beat a guard: P6PchargeP (-1 to +14), P6P2K (low with +frames on NH), as well as several mixups to punish anyone trying to hold those options, including a high launch into his air throw. Ryu has this to beat a standing guard: PP2KchargeP (-12 to +7). For threshold extenders, Leon has 7K (high kick) H+K (mid kick) and to an extent 3K as good stun delayers. He can access a CB great with stun->2K->3K->CB (Ryu must rely on a very slow mid punch for his guaranteed CB, and doesn’t incorporate lows into threshold well at all). Leon can ignore threshold for stun-launch, just as Ryu can. Leon can manipulate the environment exceptionally well, in some cases even better than Ryu. Leon has access to great OHs that Ryu does not. Leon’s charges and delays can make him very tricky to hold. Leon has oki that can compete with Ryu’s. Leon is substantially heavier than Ryu. And yes, the statement you’ve all been waiting for: Leon predictably nets more damage than Ryu in most circumstances, since he’s the strongest man in the world. Leon also dominates in throws. His Desert Falcon technically nets 2 less damage than a full Izuna, but since it tosses people so far, you typically receive more than the Izuna when combined with environment damage. He has a bonkers 8-frame punish throw (Dervish Throw), and two very effective low throws to show. But, it’s not all easy street for Leon. First, his OHs provide substantial risk, particularly 33T, which is heavily countered by Ryu’s 33T (surprise!). Second, he does toss out an above-average level of punches, particularly mid punches. These open him up for Izuna holds. Third, Leon is not the most proficient crusher. Ryu’s highs can be used to great effect, with his main risk being in respect to 33T and 33P. Finally, Leon suffers at range here quite a bit. He can try to bait Ryu into some whiffs, as some of Leon’s punishes have surprising range. But ultimately, Leon is at a clear disadvantage here. This is more prominent than in most match-ups, because both Ryu and Leon send their opponents flying. This causes them to enter medium to long range more frequently than most fights do. So, in the end, I feel it’s an equal match-up.

Leon doesn't really need to go for CB that much if he's fighting against characters that are heavier than Pai or Leifang is. Instead, playing a stun game is to bait out holds and go for some hi counter throws and he can just play 2-guess setups on his opponent because of the existence of 66PP and 8PPP instead .

Stun -> 3K/H+K -> 66PP/8PPP
Stun -> 7P -> 66PP/8PPP
Stun -> 8K -> 66PP/8PPP...


He has some attacks that don't allow you to slow escape(8K, H+K, 7P) and that fearful 33p can be used not only as a starter but also as a stun extender.

Example:
Stun -> 33P -> unholdable 7P(Critical Level.3) -> WR K -> T / CB / 8PPP -> 66 -> T / Throw / 9K->T

 

[Brute]

She's a pain to most of the characters in a close range.
However, she relies heavily on (mid) punches like Leon and Kasumi, doesn't she?

Not enough to make the match-up even by a longshot. And excluding Leon's charges (which are really something different), neither Kasumi nor Leon have the delay capacity Helena has. She is definitely the hardest to hold of the three.

1.What are the nice juggles you refer to?

Well, you would actually know better than I would, but for her speed class, her damage output isn't atrocious. You get 70 damage from a guaranteed juggle off an i7 throw.
You get 121 damage from a power launcher (Ryu gets 111, btw).
I'm not trying to say that her juggle and combo damage matches Ryu's, because it doesn't. But in certain situations, she can take a nice chunk of your health.

2.What are the unholdable attacks? H+K? 3PP? New 66KK on block or?

3PP is actually holdable, it's just a natural combo (much like the new 66KK) H+K is holdable, as well.
But there are some others, like 4KK. Technically "holding" it gives you +9, which is punishable, but I get 58 damage from a throw punish, whereas I can get 94 from a mid kick hold.

3.Kasumi is supposed to be a character that also relies heavily on punches unlike Hitomi or some other characters. Isn't that a feature that gave Ryu some chance to net some damage from holds?

Yes, but it's not changing the match-up.

4.This question is not that related to this MU. I personally would like to know how you define a "neutral game"? I've heard this term a lot but people seem to have different definition for it.

Well, way I see it, it can refer to several different scenarios, but essentially, non-juggle non-stunned state, primarily when both players are at "0" frames, ie: neutral frames. So for example, I view match start as a neutral game. It gets more complicated than that because you have situations like a knockback juggle where if the opponent tech rolls, by the time the opponent runs up and reaches them, they've exhausting their frame advantage. But, they can use that time to position themselves at a certain location, so that the opponent's back will face a wall, or perhaps the player on offense wishes to be at a certain range where they excel, etc.
But when I use the term, I'm basically referring to each character's ability to open the other up, either for a stun, a knockdown, a knockback, a launch or in some cases, just gain frame advantage. So if I say a character has a superior neutral game, I mean that they are more easily able to access said advantages and reap rewards from them than the other, when neither player is stunned or launched or grounded or at substantial negative frames. So crushes, mobility, speed and mixup obviously tend to go a good length toward someone's neutral game.

Leon doesn't really need to go for CB that much if he's fighting against characters that are heavier than Pai or Leifang is. Instead, playing a stun game is to bait out holds and go for some hi counter throws and he can just play 2-guess setups on his opponent because of the existence of 66PP and 8PPP instead .
Stun -> 3K/H+K -> 66PP/8PPP
Stun -> 7P -> 66PP/8PPP
Stun -> 8K -> 66PP/8PPP...
He has some attacks that don't allow you to slow escape(8K, H+K, 7P) and that fearful 33p can be used not only as a starter but also as a stun extender.
Example:
Stun -> 33P -> unholdable 7P(Critical Level.3) -> WR K -> T / CB / 8PPP -> 66 -> T / Throw / 9K->T

Oh, I'm well aware Leon doesn't have to play the stun game, nor does he rely on the CB. In fact WR K guarantees an air throw on any weight class, even on NH. CB is just there for extra damage threat and baiting, like you mentioned, if he wants it. But, Ryu is honestly in a similar situation, since his most damaging juggle works on any weight class at any threshold. And while Leon does have some handy unshakable stuns, Ryu really is the king of deep stuns.
They both have some comparable potential there, which is yet another reason I feel the match-up is pretty even.

 

[UprisingJC]

Thanks, you've replied most of my questions, but I still would like to go deeper about some of them if you don't mind.

Yes, but it's not changing the match-up.

How come? Ryu's damage output from punch holds is high though and it doesn't get influenced too much by the 20% discount of the damage output when performed in stunned as you can go for the air juggle by yourself instead of finishing the complete izuna hold. I think you know what I mean as your main character is Ryu if I know right, but I'm still listing some here. I'm not sure if they're the best juggles however, LOL.

67H -> 2P+K -> 6P4 -> K -> 8P -> 41236T
64H -> 236P -> 4K or 66K -> K -> PKK

Well, way I see it, it can refer to several different scenarios, but essentially, non-juggle non-stunned state, primarily when both players are at "0" frames, ie: neutral frames. So for example, I view match start as a neutral game. It gets more complicated than that because you have situations like a knockback juggle where if the opponent tech rolls, by the time the opponent runs up and reaches them, they've exhausting their frame advantage. But, they can use that time to position themselves at a certain location, so that the opponent's back will face a wall, or perhaps the player on offense wishes to be at a certain range where they excel, etc.
But when I use the term, I'm basically referring to each character's ability to open the other up, either for a stun, a knockdown, a knockback, a launch or in some cases, just gain frame advantage. So if I say a character has a superior neutral game, I mean that they are more easily able to access said advantages and reap rewards from them than the other, when neither player is stunned or launched or grounded or at substantial negative frames. So crushes, mobility, speed and mixup obviously tend to go a good length toward someone's neutral game.

I've heard something like characters like Kasumi, Christie and Sarah are good at the neutral game. Due to their speed class? On the other hand, Does having lots of mid/low follow-ups have something to do with being good at the neutral game? Yes I'm talking about Kasumi. 6PK/6P2K, 3PP/3P2K, PP2K/PP6P...etc
She has lots of follow-ups like this but what I've seen is that lots of people would rather get hit by her mids than by her lows. People tend to block/counter lows like crazy and ignore her mids for most of the time.

Oh, I'm well aware Leon doesn't have to play the stun game, nor does he rely on the CB. In fact WR K guarantees an air throw on any weight class, even on NH. CB is just there for extra damage threat and baiting, like you mentioned, if he wants it. But, Ryu is honestly in a similar situation, since his most damaging juggle works on any weight class at any threshold. And while Leon does have some handy unshakable stuns, Ryu really is the king of deep stuns.
They both have some comparable potential there, which is yet another reason I feel the match-up is pretty even.

To me, Ryu is just like Leon as he doesn't really need CB that much but he can still go for it if he wants as he's got lots of stuns with a long duration that allows you to follow with moves like 214p, 236p+k and 4h+k.
People mainly do 236P+KPP(Round)T after CB, but you can do it whenever you hit your opponent with moves like 3P, 6K, Jab and 6P+K4. CB doesn't grant him any damage enhancement. This is similar to Leon as he only gets roughly 6 more damage in critical level 3 than he does in critical level 1 against a mediumweight character if what I remember is correct.

 

[Brute]

Thanks, you've replied most of my questions, but I still would like to go deeper about some of them if you don't mind.

I do not mind at all.

How come?

Well, there's no way to be 100% resolute and objective about this, as ultimately it's going to come down to personal opinion of whether you think that the pros outweigh the cons in the specific situation. For me, if high damage output compensated for lacking neutral game than yes, I would concede. But, as you have probably gathered, I don't feel it does. Empirically, both from what I've studied and experienced as well as what seems to be the majority consensus, strength in the neutral game, the ability to open the opponent up and apply constant pressure goes further than damage output because it effectively prevents the defender from accessing their options if the offensive is smart. It's just the same way that in general we see slower, heavier-hitting characters struggling more than the faster mix-up characters.
I should also note that Kasumi can be tricky to hold, due to the fact that she has several 2-1/natural combos, she hits fast, and she has a lot of string variety and mix-up to keep your guessing. So she's not committing to predictable patterns. Yes, she does hit on the mid punch level quite often. But to be honest, she hits on almost every hit level quite often. So your chances of guessing right each time are not extremely high (as opposed to, say, Gen Fu). And if you start tossing them out too liberally hoping to guess right, you'll start getting oboro'd. So basically, you don't want to be tossing out a random Izuna hold because she hits on that level a lot, because more often than not it will backfire in a big way (a philosophy that applies to most holds in general for most situations). You want to attempt holds when you believe you are confident you have predicted the next attack. Against Kasumi, this is hard to do, for reasons I described earlier.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the "spam mid K hold against Sarah" concept, but a similar thing is going on there.

Anyway, if other Kasumi/Ryu players want to weigh in here, I'd be happy to keep the discussion going.

Ryu's damage output from punch holds is high though and it doesn't get influenced too much by the 20% discount of the damage output when performed in stunned as you can go for the air juggle by yourself instead of finishing the complete izuna hold. I think you know what I mean as your main character is Ryu if I know right, but I'm still listing some here. I'm not sure if they're the best juggles however, LOL.
67H -> 2P+K -> 6P4 -> K -> 8P -> 41236T
64H -> 236P -> 4K or 66K -> K -> PKK

That is true, and a fair point.

I've heard something like characters like Kasumi, Christie and Sarah are good at the neutral game. Due to their speed class? On the other hand, Does having lots of mid/low follow-ups have something to do with being good at the neutral game? Yes I'm talking about Kasumi. 6PK/6P2K, 3PP/3P2K, PP2K/PP6P...etc
She has lots of follow-ups like this but what I've seen is that lots of people would rather get hit by her mids than by her lows. People tend to block/counter lows like crazy and ignore her mids for most of the time.

Yeah, it's not just their speed, though that is important. Valid mix-ups are also a huge, huge factor when I consdier the strength of a character's neutral game.
For example, as you probably know, Hayabusa has these options from his jab:
PPPP
PPPK
PPPK4
PP4PP
PP4P6P
PP4P2P
PP4PK
PP2K4
PP2KP
PPKKK
PPKKP
PP6P
PP6P4
PKK
Wow, that sure is a lot of mix-ups, isn't it? Should contribute pretty well to the "mix-up" department of his neutral game, right? Well, it doesn't, because they're all beaten by a standing block.
Meanwhile, Rachel has
PPP
PP4P
PPK
PP2K
PP8P+K/PP2P+K
PK
PPT
Wow, so she has about half the options Ryu does. Weaker mix-up? Nope. Way stronger. Each one makes the defender commit to a different strategy. You can't blanket her options with one response. Thus, Rachel has a far superior neutral game with her jab string.

I think you already get this intuitively, just though I'd elaborate to be thorough.

To me, Ryu is just like Leon as he doesn't really need CB that much but he can still go for it if he wants as he's got lots of stuns with a long duration that allows you to follow with moves like 214p, 236p+k and 4h+k.
People mainly do 236P+KPP(Round)T after CB, but you can do it whenever you hit your opponent with moves like 3P, 6K, Jab and 6P+K4. CB doesn't grant him any damage enhancement. This is similar to Leon as he only gets roughly 6 more damage in critical level 3 than he does in critical level 1 against a mediumweight character if what I remember is correct.

Which is exactly what I was referring to. I think you're in agreement with me, here? I'm not quite sure how you want me to respond to this.

 

[AkaShocka]

Hey Brute, I think I should add some input on your Ryu vs Lisa and Ryu vs Christie. (Sorry I cant quote, this tablet is stupid)

I totally agree with you on these matchups and I respect your opinions. Though I do have some things to add. With Christie and Ryu, Christie dominates neautral, as you said, and has far better mixups, evasiveness and so forth. Im sure you know this but Christie can very littlely play a bit like Pai. She can poke and force you to hold and get you with reset throws (4t or 3p+kt). Christie also has moves that semi-sidestep (not talking about her jak moves). Her 7p is a good example. Im sure Ryu doesnt have good lows(except a few) but if Ryu tries to use a tracking low to hit Christie either from crushing or jak, he may lose to a low crushing move and Christie has A LOT of those. In this matchup I personally believe Ryu's best bet is his punishments and holds. I would say space her out but Christie has very decent spacing. His spacing is better of course but Christie can definitely close gaps. And damage, uuhh I would want to say this goes to Ryu but Christie can really get good damage off of juggles and the enviroment but Ryu does have the bigger damage outpu.

I like the Ryu vs Lisa matchup, one of my faves. Ryu for sure has the better combo and enviroment damage. Ryu does need to be careful in spacing. Not because Lisa is also a great spacer but she is the best, if not only, character that can use throws in spacing, not any old silly throws, but OHs... so Ryu has to be careful there. Also Lisa has mixups that can mess up timings of holds, this can become a big problem. Lisa also has throws that get guaranteed stuff from (44t and 64t). Lisa can also play a bit like Sarah (fakes). Sarah can use fakes like 4h+kh to get in between holds. Lisa can stun and use 4h+k6 to go into CAR stance or use 8p to go into BT. Lisa can be a tough fight if she does those. But I still believe its 5-5

 

[Brute]

I totally agree with you on these matchups and I respect your opinions. Though I do have some things to add.

Cool.

Im sure Ryu doesnt have good lows(except a few)

I am not aware of these few you mention.

if Ryu tries to use a tracking low to hit Christie either from crushing or jak, he may lose to a low crushing move and Christie has A LOT of those.

Exactly why I said he's relying mostly of 4P to counter her SSing, and addressed the big drawbacks on doing so.

In this matchup I personally believe Ryu's best bet is his punishments and holds.

Christie doesn't have to let herself be in a position where it's wise for the opponent to throw punish. Her delays, mix-ups and evasion can keep her offense going heavy, and trying to throw punish these canceled strings is just asking to be HiC struck. So you want to retaliate with strikes, ideally mids, and ideally ones that track. So we're back at the 4P issue.I agree with holds. Christie uses all three punch levels a fair amount, as well as a few mid Ks, all of which can be expert/advanced held save the natural combos.

I like the Ryu vs Lisa matchup, one of my faves. Ryu for sure has the better combo and enviroment damage. Ryu does need to be careful in spacing. Not because Lisa is also a great spacer but she is the best, if not only, character that can use throws in spacing, not any old silly throws, but OHs... so Ryu has to be careful there. Also Lisa has mixups that can mess up timings of holds, this can become a big problem. Lisa also has throws that get guaranteed stuff from (44t and 64t). Lisa can also play a bit like Sarah (fakes). Sarah can use fakes like 4h+kh to get in between holds. Lisa can stun and use 4h+k6 to go into CAR stance or use 8p to go into BT. Lisa can be a tough fight if she does those. But I still believe its 5-5

I basically agree with almost all of this, so I won't bother dissecting each point. xD

I would like to add, however, that Bass, Leon and Alpha use OHs in their spacing, and to an extent Marie Rose.

 

[AkaShocka]

Lol. Ryu's 1p is a good low... or at least decent xD. What about that one low where he likes slides on the ground? 66k I think?

Ok, I can see Alpha using OHs in spacing but how can Leon and Bass?

 

[UprisingJC]

Well, there's no way to be 100% resolute and objective about this, as ultimately it's going to come down to personal opinion of whether you think that the pros outweigh the cons in the specific situation. For me, if high damage output compensated for lacking neutral game than yes, I would concede. But, as you have probably gathered, I don't feel it does. Empirically, both from what I've studied and experienced as well as what seems to be the majority consensus, strength in the neutral game, the ability to open the opponent up and apply constant pressure goes further than damage output because it effectively prevents the defender from accessing their options if the offensive is smart. It's just the same way that in general we see slower, heavier-hitting characters struggling more than the faster mix-up characters.
I should also note that Kasumi can be tricky to hold, due to the fact that she has several 2-1/natural combos, she hits fast, and she has a lot of string variety and mix-up to keep your guessing. So she's not committing to predictable patterns. Yes, she does hit on the mid punch level quite often. But to be honest, she hits on almost every hit level quite often. So your chances of guessing right each time are not extremely high (as opposed to, say, Gen Fu). And if you start tossing them out too liberally hoping to guess right, you'll start getting oboro'd. So basically, you don't want to be tossing out a random Izuna hold because she hits on that level a lot, because more often than not it will backfire in a big way (a philosophy that applies to most holds in general for most situations). You want to attempt holds when you believe you are confident you have predicted the next attack. Against Kasumi, this is hard to do, for reasons I described earlier.

What I've seen so far is that Kasumi players tend to go for PPP(PP6P) and PP2K a lot if they start their offense with the jab. She still has other follow-ups like PPK and PP6K but the former one hits high and the latter one has bad-ass follow-ups(A knockdown kick that hits high and a FREAKING SLOW LOW SWEEP).

The defenders reactions to her attacks are mostly:
1.Crouching
2.Countering mid punch
3.Retaliate right after blocking pp(usually with attacks that crush highs).

But don't get misunderstood, I'm not saying that Kasumi's weak, just pointing out what I've seen to see for any opinions and suggestions about that. lol.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the "spam mid K hold against Sarah" concept, but a similar thing is going on there.

I tend to counter her highs and mid kicks for most of the time if I attempt a hold.

Yeah, it's not just their speed, though that is important. Valid mix-ups are also a huge, huge factor when I consdier the strength of a character's neutral game.
For example, as you probably know, Hayabusa has these options from his jab:
PPPP
PPPK
PPPK4
PP4PP
PP4P6P
PP4P2P
PP4PK
PP2K4
PP2KP
PPKKK
PPKKP
PP6P
PP6P4
PKK
Wow, that sure is a lot of mix-ups, isn't it? Should contribute pretty well to the "mix-up" department of his neutral game, right? Well, it doesn't, because they're all beaten by a standing block.
Meanwhile, Rachel has
PPP
PP4P
PPK
PP2K
PP8P+K/PP2P+K
PK
PPT
Wow, so she has about half the options Ryu does. Weaker mix-up? Nope. Way stronger. Each one makes the defender commit to a different strategy. You can't blanket her options with one response. Thus, Rachel has a far superior neutral game with her jab string.

I think you already get this intuitively, just though I'd elaborate to be thorough.

I know what you meant on Ryu's P strings. His pp2k is not that threatening so standing block can deal with all his follow-ups. However, this is where my question comes from.

Due to his p strings lacking good lows, people tend to stand and keep blocking. This is where his throw can do some well job. Something like PP -> Throw or PP4P -> Throw. His opponent seldom crouches when blocking as he lacks threatening lows.

However for Kasumi, I personally think she can't do similar things(but P -> throw still works) as she has lots of mid/low follow-ups as mentioned before(pp6p/pp2k, 6pk/6p2k...) and people seem to tend to crouch a lot to block her lows and simultaneously avoid her standing throws. Well, this is just what I've seen though.

Which is exactly what I was referring to. I think you're in agreement with me, here? I'm not quite sure how you want me to respond to this.

Yes[/quote]

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Lol. Ryu's 1p is a good low... or at least decent xD. What about that one low where he likes slides on the ground? 66k I think?

Ok, I can see Alpha using OHs in spacing but how can Leon and Bass?

Sorry... Carry on please.

Alpha's OH's are amazing for spacing (Fuck 2141236T -_-), and Bass has good range on his "FIRE" OH (half-circle input I think). Leon has his takedown like Mila.

 

[Brute]

Lol. Ryu's 1p is a good low... or at least decent xD.

Not really.

What about that one low where he likes slides on the ground? 66k I think?

I am praying that you're not referring to 33K / ongyoin 2K. Please don't tell me that's what you mean.

Ok, I can see Alpha using OHs in spacing but how can Leon and Bass?

Wah will give you a better breakdown on Bass, but on a basic level, spacing a timed 41236 charge T can be a very scary thing.
Leon can use his OH as a mixup to his charging P to snag those who try to hold, SS or block it. He can also use it as a whiff punish, funny enough. If you count hit throws, charge P+K T is also a big one.

Hayabusa also uses ongyoin 8T OH in his spacing game. Bayman uses tankroll, etc.

What I've seen so far is that Kasumi players tend to go for PPP(PP6P) and PP2K a lot if they start their offense with the jab. She still has other follow-ups like PPK and PP6K but the former one hits high and the latter one has bad-ass follow-ups(A knockdown kick that hits high and a FREAKING SLOW LOW SWEEP).
The defenders reactions to her attacks are mostly:
1.Crouching
2.Countering mid punch
3.Retaliate right after blocking pp(usually with attacks that crush highs).
But don't get misunderstood, I'm not saying that Kasumi's weak, just pointing out what I've seen to see for any opinions and suggestions about that. lol.
[...]
I know what you meant on Ryu's P strings. His pp2k is not that threatening so standing block can deal with all his follow-ups. However, this is where my question comes from.
Due to his p strings lacking good lows, people tend to stand and keep blocking. This is where his throw can do some well job. Something like PP -> Throw or PP4P -> Throw. His opponent seldom crouches when blocking as he lacks threatening lows.

Anyone can tick throw. That's not unique to Hayabusa. So Kasumi has the same advantage there. Note also that expert players DO fuzzy guard against Ryu a good deal, because they know he wants, and in some sense, needs his grabs.

I would like to make a special mention of "what players tend to do" is not always the best approach in an MU discussion. For example, in Vanilla, most people would tend to block Ryu's 4PK. They'd just freeze up for some reason. The animation wasn't incredibly fast, it was pretty obvious/telegraphed, and it could be SS'd on reaction to avoid the big guard break. But people rarely did it aside form top-level play (could also be held, obviously). So when considering two top-level players with great execution and reaction time, each with full knowledge of their opponent's options, "people tend to do ___" is sometimes misleading to what the full capacity of a situation at top-level play actually plays out to.

In this case, Kasumi could play with "no low" strings a la Hayabusa and condition the opponent not to duck low as a result, and then theoretically tick throw just like Busa. She just has the bonus option(s) of way more mix-up tools stacked on top should she choose to utilize them.

 

[HoodsXx]

I'll give my info on the Brad vs Hayabusa MU. I personally see it as 6-4 in Busa's favor. The reason for the is that even though Brad has his crushes majority of times he's forced to read off of highs in order to crush. A predominantly mid striking character limits Brad to mainly holding correctly or SSin at the right time. When it comes to unsafe strings I'd have to say Brad takes the brunt of it more than Busa does most just don't know how or what you can punish him for. On the topic of ranged tools Busa definitely beats him as Brad's only viable get in move at range w/o it being horribly punished on reaction is his headbutt and even then his running headbutt is -5 on block. From there Brad's initial frames are 16i K8 16i OH 23i H+K 20i P+K and 21i P. All of which can be stopped. Sure he has his side roll but you can stop that too as Busa. 3P+K I believe is the notation for Busa can stop all of Brad's options. At range and when you block running P at -5. When it comes to his Ong transitions luckily Brad has the upper-hand in some cases those being his Busa's OH or his Ong 6P+K/P as both of those are highs and can be crushed. So pretty much at range i'd say Busa has the upper-hand and up close as well. Tracking wise Brad's most viable options are 1K and 2H+K. Sadly though he's only able to counter poke someone with these at -7 on block so that at times limits his options of wanting to stop SS. 8K/ 6PK get beat out if you SSP with Busa. If you want me to go into more detail @Brute I can gladly do so.

 

[Brute]

The reason for the is that even though Brad has his crushes majority of times he's forced to read off of highs in order to crush.

"The majority of the time he's forced to crush off highs." For anyone with crushing that is the case. Very few people characters have access to mid crushes at all, let alone get to utilize them frequently (Helena comes to mind). I won't discuss low crushes because that's not a huge issue in this match-up. Aside from that, the fact that Brad has any mid-crushes means Busa will have to jump to some of his lows at times, which is his least favorite thing to do. Keep in mind that Busa is not have a jolly time trying to crush Brad either.

A predominantly mid striking character limits Brad to mainly holding correctly or SSin at the right time.

Who isn't a predominately mid striking character in this game? Both Ryu and Brad are defensive characters. Busa has to rely on holding correctly and "SSin at the right time" in almost every single match-up he has. Only difference is that he has access to the riskier but more rewarding expert holds, which Brad obviously doesn't.

When it comes to unsafe strings I'd have to say Brad takes the brunt of it more than Busa does

I wouldn't say that for various reasons. If you want to go over it more, I can, but basically it involves Hayabusa having no real "guess mix-up" potential and few delays that make people hesitate to punish. In order to get safety or frame advantage Ryu's forced into very long, predictable, telegraphed attacks and can be intercepted even by the slower likes of Brad. He has a few other options, but they're not doing great in this match-up (such as PP6P/6P+K being a high).

On the topic of ranged tools Busa definitely beats him as Brad's only viable get in move at range w/o it being horribly punished on reaction is his headbutt and even then his running headbutt is -5 on block.

I already addressed this in my section earlier. Busa's range tools aren't doing that much against Brad unless Brad's whiffing or stance-ing out-of-turn, and comparable gap-closers are much riskier with Ryu. This "hold on reaction" idea you have for Brad's headbutt I honestly do not understand. Like I said, it can jump to -3 depending on distance. Since you don't have the move details up in a real fight, you're often guessing: "What was the range? Can I punish it?" and even when you can punish it, the punish window is never as big as -15 as it is for Ryu. And that is -15 every single time. No guessing. And it can be standing or crouching punished. This is just one of many examples of Ryu being easily throw punishable due to his lack of mix-ups and delays and general unsafety, but that's a different point. The moves Brad is really worrying about with Ryu at range are WR H+K and 236P, both of which are very risky and very unsafe.

So pretty much at range i'd say Busa has the upper-hand and up close as well.

When did we discuss up close? You mentioned some points on range (which I personally don't agree with), but how is Busa allegedly winning up close, now, too?
And Ryu's 3P+K (the BT transition true mid with the teleport on-hit) is 20 frames (now add two extra frames, one for active and one for that weird issue the game does with attack frames). Brad's OH from lying is 15 (IIRC). So no, Ryu's 3P+K is not beating out a blocked headbutt at -5, let alone when it's -3.

Tracking wise Brad's most viable options are 1K and 2H+K. Sadly though he's only able to counter poke someone with these at -7 on block so that at times limits his options of wanting to stop SS. 8K/ 6PK get beat out if you SSP with Busa.

Sidestep P with Busa has a lot of the same concerns as the 4P issue I was addressing with Christie, but if we're talking about "up-close tracking" Ryu isn't doing fantastic himself. 6PK is honestly his best option there, and that can be crushed. Aside from that you're playing silly with 4P and 1P.

 

[HoodsXx]

The reason I brought up the point of him having to mostly SS or hold is because brad isn't a character that can counter poke you very often unless you do something mad unsafe. Because of this, he has to respect a lot more things than most. He's forced more often than not to rely on crushing and not counter poking or playing footies. When it comes to spacing, the reason I mentioned it being in Hayabusa's favor is that at range Brad 's way of coming in is limited to moves that are all extremely telegraphed. Those being DHO H+K BT 8K 33K 66P and 66K. The problem is mostly that he's forced to go into a stance to try and come in on you excluding his headbutt. That gives the opponent time to run up and stop him from doing so. Or reacting on time with a Hold or SS. (The only move that I mentioned that can't be SSd is BT 8K). When it comes to them both being in each others faces sure Brad has the mix up potential but all of those require him to go off of his lows in order to open you up. He has a very difficult time doing so. The parries from Ong also don't help Brad when he's wanting to counter poke Hayabusa as if he's parried he's going for a ride. Damage and guarantees Brad I think has a few more options than Hayabusa correct me if I'm wrong but brad 's are not so situational and are less damage regardless. As for environmental damage brad is definitely laughable compared to Hayabusa but that we both already know. As for dealing with his Headbutt. The animation for knowing which one he did I'd fairly easy to see one you get accustomed to seeing it so reacting accordingly isn't difficult. If you notice he takes a considerable amount of time before he's thrusts his head towards you when using 236P compared to running P. Because of that spacing out his headbutt isn't too difficult if he does 236P because of how long the startup is. And since you decided to talk about his -3 on both headbutts. I'll tell you now that doing it from range to make it safe you have to be a bit more than mid range in order to get that off. And if the person realizes that a simple KBD will make him whiff and its a free low punish. I can elaborate on his mixups of you'd like. PS: His OH won't stop 3P+K because it needs an extra frame window in order for it to connect. And if you're worried about the SS from LFT roll you can think of it as a normal SS in that a fast mid - low tracking move will stuff him out as he doesn't have enough time to get the parry out. Or you can use a fast mid - mid poke.

 

[Brute]

The reason I brought up the point of him having to mostly SS or hold is because brad isn't a character that can counter poke you very often unless you do something mad unsafe. Because of this, he has to respect a lot more things than most. He's forced more often than not to rely on crushing and not counter poking or playing footies.

I'm kinda confused what you mean here. In general, the whole purpose of a crush is to score a CH by evading the opponent's strike. If you're relying on the opponent being at negative frames, might as well go with your fastest mid. If you're forced to "rely on crushing" it sounds like he's jsut eh type of character to "counter-poke" you.
Maybe it's just semantics confusing me. Elaborate?

When it comes to spacing, the reason I mentioned it being in Hayabusa's favor is that at range Brad 's way of coming in is limited to moves that are all extremely telegraphed. Those being DHO H+K BT 8K 33K 66P and 66K. The problem is mostly that he's forced to go into a stance to try and come in on you excluding his headbutt. That gives the opponent time to run up and stop him from doing so. Or reacting on time with a Hold or SS. (The only move that I mentioned that can't be SSd is BT 8K).

I'm not sure why you believe Hayabusa is any different in this regard. His approaches have the same drawbacks.

When it comes to them both being in each others faces sure Brad has the mix up potential but all of those require him to go off of his lows in order to open you up. He has a very difficult time doing so.

Hayabusa is the king of having a difficult time to open someone up. At least Brad has those lows, even if he is "require[d] [...] to go off [them]". Hayabusa doesn't really have anything. He's required to go off essentially nothing.

The parries from Ong also don't help Brad when he's wanting to counter poke Hayabusa as if he's parried he's going for a ride.

If he's parried he's going for a ride? How so? Brad's at 13/15/12 when BT, and Hayabusa is typically at negative frames after he successfully uses that parry.

Damage and guarantees Brad I think has a few more options than Hayabusa correct me if I'm wrong but brad 's are not so situational and are less damage regardless.

Brad's got some nice guarantees, but as long as Hayabusa has the the Shoho as a launch option from a lift stun, he does fine there. His 4K also nets good damage even on low threshold.

As for environmental damage brad is definitely laughable compared to Hayabusa but that we both already know.

Won't argue that.

As for dealing with his Headbutt. The animation for knowing which one he did I'd fairly easy to see one you get accustomed to seeing it so reacting accordingly isn't difficult. If you notice he takes a considerable amount of time before he's thrusts his head towards you when using 236P compared to running P. Because of that spacing out his headbutt isn't too difficult if he does 236P because of how long the startup is. And since you decided to talk about his -3 on both headbutts. I'll tell you now that doing it from range to make it safe you have to be a bit more than mid range in order to get that off. And if the person realizes that a simple KBD will make him whiff and its a free low punish.

As opposed to the free 12 frame throw punish you get for simply blocking Hayabusa's? Again, you mentioned you feel that Brad is easier to punish and is less safe than Busa, but punishing the headbutt from Brad is definitely trickier than punishing Ryu's, regardless how easy you may find it to be.

I can elaborate on his mixups of you'd like. PS: His OH won't stop 3P+K because it needs an extra frame window in order for it to connect.

Yes it will.
I block it, you're at -5. I expend those 5 frames making a 20 frame move 15 frames (essentially). Now, add two frames for active and one for the strike issue and boom: I'm coming at you with 17 frames. You are using a 15 frame OH, with one frame added for active. That's 16 frames. Thus, 3P+K won't win.

And if you're worried about the SS from LFT roll you can think of it as a normal SS in that a fast mid - low tracking move will stuff him out as he doesn't have enough time to get the parry out. Or you can use a fast mid - mid poke.
.

Again, Hayabusa doesn't have the best anti-SS tools up clsoe, either as a low or mid (4P/1P thing again).

 

[Crext]

Good job crew. Updating it, will take me a while to read everything though, so I am going by initial reply vs contested to begin with.

 

[J.D.E.]

I'll list some on my experience.

Kasumi
vs Brad 6-4
This match up didn't really change. With P+K & P6P getting fixed, this pleads Kasumi's case even more for 6-4in him. She doesn't have to respect Brad's guard break, the running headbutt once she blocks. She has these 2 tools to stop it. The only thing that he can do to her is his leg parry, but it doesn't give him anything after it. While 6P has a hitbox issue, she still has 4P that can knock him out of his laydown stance as well her 9i jab that knocks him out of his handstands. As well as being good upclose in the neutral game. He has to rely on good reads & crushes in order to beat her.

vs Ein 6-4
The fight could give Ein trouble upclose obviously, since Ein struggles not only in neutral, but in the stun/poke game. Ein can keep Kasumi out, but reality would take its course with her backing him down with 3P+K & inching her way in. She also has 66P, 66K & 66H+K to her disposal that he has to look out for.

vs Kokoro 6-4
Kasumi outclasses Kokoro in the neutral, but that's not the only thing. She's not outpoking Kasumi outside of 6P being her main source. She has better guaranteed damage overall, with H+K (PPK), 4H+K, 66T~T. Kokoro's best option when she is spacing is her 14i 66P. If she's foolish with the spacing, Kokoro can also 6K. Kasumi however, along with her 3P+K, 66P, & 66K, has her parries, lots of tracking & has SS.

vs Sarah 5-5
Sarah because of her being safer in the neutral game, can be just as fast as Kasumi, but she "can" interrupt some of her jabs like her high kicks. Sarah struggles in space where Kasumi is a tad bit better. Kasumi also has more guaranteed damage than Sarah in general. Sarah's crush properties aren't all that great & Kasumi has her parries to give her shot.

vs Pai 5-5
Almost similar to Sarah's match up except she a little bit faster & has decent guaranteeds. Since she has the safer, she's able to pressure a bit easier than Kasumi. She however, like VF characters in the game, have trouble in spacing & that's where Kasumi has her beat. She has her running unblockable kick getting in.

vs Bass 6-4
It may be an iffy number, but I want to wager this as a 6-4. I have it there because Kasumi's damage was decreased, health bar increased. Bass's high damage output to a lightweight is up there & all he needs is one stop & the momentum is shifted towards his way, but Kasumi's fast pokes makes it hard for him to get anything going along with him not 'really' being able to outspace her. He has great oki to help his case as well.

 

[UprisingJC]

Not really.

In this case, Kasumi could play with "no low" strings a la Hayabusa and condition the opponent not to duck low as a result, and then theoretically tick throw just like Busa. She just has the bonus option(s) of way more mix-up tools stacked on top should she choose to utilize them.

I didn't notice this part when I read ur post a few days ago.
Did you mean that Kasumi can use strings like Hayabusa? Not using lows to make her opponent keep stand blocking to make tick throw work?

 

[Brute]

I didn't notice this part when I read ur post a few days ago.
Did you mean that Kasumi can use strings like Hayabusa? Not using lows to make her opponent keep stand blocking to make tick throw work?

That's the basic idea, yes. Keep to highs/mids and free-cancels, giving the opponent a sense of security with a standing block.

Good job crew. Updating it, will take me a while to read everything though, so I am going by initial reply vs contested to begin with.

Thanks. Appreciate it.
Is someone currently contesting my analysis of the Ryu v Mila MU? All the others I think were, updated, but that one's still as it was. Just want to make sure I'm not ignoring anyone's concerns.

 

[mpgeist]

Is someone currently contesting my analysis of the Ryu v Mila MU? All the others I think were, updated, but that one's still as it was. Just want to make sure I'm not ignoring anyone's concerns.

First rule of Mila's mach-ups is don't talk about Mila's match-ups. Seriously though I wish I could help, but all I've played of Ryu are dorks online who just mash and use his Ongyoin stuff that goes into teleporty moves cuz it looks cool. If I fight anyone of greater skill I'm bascially free, but your analysis seemed good to me.

 

[Brute]

First rule of Mila's mach-ups is don't talk about Mila's match-ups. Seriously though I wish I could help, but all I've played of Ryu are dorks online who just mash and use his Ongyoin stuff that goes into teleporty moves cuz it looks cool. If I fight anyone of greater skill I'm bascially free, but your analysis seemed good to me.

Well if you're on PSN, feel free to hit me up sometime. I'd be happy to play a few matches with ya.