Momiji General Discussion

Saber

Well-Known Member
I still don't understand why people are using tenku setups as a block string anyway. You can't SS out of stun, or block it... so problem solved. Use it in a stun setup to avoid being SS, or hit out of it, or blocked etc.
Because it's amazing as a crush move? I think that's the only good point about using Tenku in neutral.

The problem with Momiji's double jump "stance" if it can even be called that is because it's only use is for juggles. Only juggles. Even in stun, the "mix-ups" from Uzukaze and Tenku are shit compared to her neutral mixups, with the only redeeming factor being the 50/50 between CB and Tenku Throw, and even then, low holding solves all your problems, especially if you're a player that actually knows how to hold on reaction.

Also, her izuna is actually the most damage you can get off a CB =S so not sure what you guys are talking about again. Unless of course you're going for a power launcher, then obviously a power launcher combo will be of better use. But if you can't power launch, 236P+K pp izuna is her most damaging combo after a CB. And I've messed with a lot combo wise with her.
On NH and in ceiling areas only.

CH and higher, her other juggles do more damage, even on heavies. Not to mention you shouldn't really be going for a CB setup in the first place - stun-launch is more efficient.

There's not much to "mess around" with Momiji, though. It's practically the same juggle over and over and over again, and I've reached a point where I just get bored playing Momiji since it's the same tactic regardless of matchup. Not that I mind, but she could use some string variety and extra delayable frames.
 

FatalxInnocence

Well-Known Member
Because it's amazing as a crush move? I think that's the only good point about using Tenku in neutral.

The problem with Momiji's double jump "stance" if it can even be called that is because it's only use is for juggles. Only juggles. Even in stun, the "mix-ups" from Uzukaze and Tenku are shit compared to her neutral mixups, with the only redeeming factor being the 50/50 between CB and Tenku Throw, and even then, low holding solves all your problems, especially if you're a player that actually knows how to hold on reaction.

On NH and in ceiling areas only.

CH and higher, her other juggles do more damage, even on heavies. Not to mention you shouldn't really be going for a CB setup in the first place - stun-launch is more efficient.

There's not much to "mess around" with Momiji, though. It's practically the same juggle over and over and over again, and I've reached a point where I just get bored playing Momiji since it's the same tactic regardless of matchup. Not that I mind, but she could use some string variety and extra delayable frames.

I can give you several lol =P and no, her CB into 236P+K PP Izuna is her most damaging one. ( Without the use of walls of course. ) I think it's 1 point more damage? ( unless they nerfed it in the 1.04 update? Haven't messed around with 1.04 much. )

Naturally all the end part with Momiji is admittedly the same. Usually ends with a 6PKKP/K ( depending on wall positioning. ) however the first hit can differ. You have your 44P, your 66K, your 8P. Or if you want to drop the 6P etc. you can go for 8P 3P4P 6PKP or repeat 3P4PP etc. She does have variety, it's just about finding it. ( of course I'm referring to combos. She does lack string mix up & variety. But so does Rachel. She's new. She'll grow as the series progresses. )

As for stun launch, each to their own. I usually bait counters for her 236T. I scare people into not countering, I'm for the most part prepared for counters with Momiji. Her 236T HC is more damage than a simple stun launch anyway. It's just a matter of if you're willing to risk it, and I for the most part am.
 

Saber

Well-Known Member
I can give you several lol =P and no, her CB into 236P+K PP Izuna is her most damaging one. ( Without the use of walls of course. ) I think it's 1 point more damage? ( unless they nerfed it in the 1.04 update? Haven't messed around with 1.04 much. )
It's been that way even since pre-patch. Post-1.04 patch did nothing to Izuna. And like I said, on NH, it's her most damaging one by one point. On CH and HCH, the Izuna juggle throw does LESS damage than other juggles on CH.
 

FatalxInnocence

Well-Known Member
It's been that way even since pre-patch. Post-1.04 patch did nothing to Izuna. And like I said, on NH, it's her most damaging one by one point. On CH and HCH, the Izuna juggle throw does LESS damage than other juggles on CH.

Oh sorry, I must have skipped that lol! -_-;; ( didn't see the ch/hch )
 

synce

Well-Known Member
With her jump being as useless as it is, what's Momiji's redeeming quality right now? Is she just T&A? I'm way out of the loop
 

Yaguar

Well-Known Member
Simplicity.
Ability to avoid most of the stun game to net good damage.
Bound stuns.
Feint stun.
:214::P::P+K: :4::P:.

Literally the same as ever.
 

coffeedad

I <3 Jesus...and coffee.
Premium Donor
I have a question about momiji (and doa in general). In the other games that I play (3s, sf4, and marvel) my gameplan goes like this...
play footsies to get my opponent into an unfavorable screen position sometimes by winning by footsies alone, cornering them and making them guess to get out, or knocking them down to force them into an f-ed up situation (50/50 or worse, ambiguous cross up, etc.)

With momiji i play footsies by poking etc. but I am not quite sure what I am even suppose to be doing. I just poke and play footsies, get a counter hit, and launch into combo. I played a very good akira and he would put me into some crazy standing resets to keep the advantage and juice me for damage and eventually go for a longer combo with a knock down. He did a great job at avoiding the wake up game by keeping me standing and at disadvantage and dealing much damage. I was very impressed by this because what I usually see is neutral poking, stun, launch, knockdown (maybe force tech, maybe challenge the wake up game, maybe holding or blocking wake up kicks) but usually going back to neutral poking game.

What are situations that I should be looking to put my opponent into? Is it just looking to put my opponent into a forced hold stunand making my opponent guess the launch height or throw?

Thanks everyone!
 

StrikerSashi

Well-Known Member
Premium Donor
It sounds like you want to play Pai with better mid range tools. Momiji isn't that good at keeping people mixed up for long periods of time. It's more get in, get a stun launch, get out. At least, that's how I play her. Whiff punishment. I pretend she's Jun from Tekken. :v I mean, it's not like she can't play the reset game, but it's not what she's good at.
 

Tenryuga

Well-Known Member
This is going to be quite comprehensive but here it is. With Momiji I play close-mid range footsies to score counter hits or whiff punishment off of her 4K, 44K, 66P and 4P. For keep-out I use PK, K, 4P, H+K, 2H+K, 6P, 3K,4K, 44K,44P and 7K.

In close range I abuse her neutral 2P to setup counter hit scenarios. Assuming the opposition has a 10i jab / 12i mid it goes like this:

1. Goal: CH off of any high; preferably K or H+K. Procedure: Condition with 2P > 2P, 2P > 6P for a bit. A player that pays attention will realize the option with the most success here is their 12i mid since it beats both 2P and 6P. When I feel it coming I'll do 2P > K and confirm the CH into one of the string followups or mixup off the frame advantage.

2. Goal: CH 6P, CH 1P Procedure: Condition with 2P > 6P and 2P > P. This sequence accomplishes both things it just depends on what read you make. 2P > P will tie with their 10i jab and since it beats their mid they will want to crush or sidestep to deal with it. In that case you start introducing PK a little more to kill step, and 6P to CH their crush attempt. 1P is there for step killing purposes and to crush their highs when they start using them to stop your 6P.

For step killing purposes during 2P pressure vs 10i/12i characters I stick to PK/H+K because they beat 2 options: mids and sidestep. 4P I use when the opponent has a 14i or slower 2P because otherwise when you do things like 2P > 4P any strike the opponent chooses to do will CH you. I also use SS and holds here and there but not so much because it's not like they can really disrespect Momiji's 2P unless you've been making shitty reads or doing a terrible job conditioning them.

Against 9i/11i mid characters I switch to more defensive gears during 2P pressure. 2P > 2P or 1P and 2P > P for the offense and 2P > sidestep, 2P > hold for defense. 10i/11i characters I lay off Momiji's 12 frame highs and stick to P/PK when I want a counterhit high. All other procedures remain the similar to the 10i/12i characters only I'll use SS and holds a bit more to help shut down their mids. Unlike characters with a 9i jab, 10i jabbers HAVE to use their low/crush to shut down Momiji's jab or use a high hold which means 6P has worth in these MUs to get some free damage on a failed hold or CH crush attempts.

For string based pressure I very rarely do her transitions into double jump off 6K because those give nothing. I rarely put 6K on the board in general during neutral. It really kills her momentum IMO and forces you to commit. I'll use P free cancel pressure or P/PP into a throw or 2P to reset pressure, PP4P to kill step and score a CH on ppl trying to crush out of my tick throws, PPP for the deep stun on CH and PPPP near walls for the quick stun into splat on CH. It's safe as well so no reason not to go for it near walls. My other option is PP into Uzukaze K which is decent IMO because it's a quick guard break. I use this one more near the wall because on hit midscreen the opponent has no reason to hold anything from this. If they do it's just making it easier for you to convert into damage off Uzukaze K. The alternative is a uzukaze feint to reset pressure.

When I use 6P I tend to free cancel and block if I don't get the CH since its -12 so it is easy to counterblow Momiji when she free cancels into other strikes. If I'm not blocking I'm either committing to 6PP / 6PK or a slight delay of the two with 6P free cancelled into 2P to reset pressure or 1P stuff to crush people with the balls to throw someone for free canceling.

Now for her stun game. In the stun game I am all about maximum efficiency. I don't believe in giving players many chances to hold or playing it just to set up a specific move (such as Momiji's moves that guarantee damage) because it is a waste. I stun-launch unless I am low on health or know a setup will close a round out. I only CB power blow when I have 50% health or lower and it is necessary for a comeback. This is how it goes for me:

CH 6P

Routes:

#1. Launch with 8K for 79 points. This is 26% damage; A little more than 1/4th their life bar. Her oki off of 6PKKP is good because it is a hard knockdown so you have time to react to them tech rolling. If they aren't doing it I take my grounded 2P and 7P away. I only really bulldog players after I do grounded 2P if they are committing to WU kicks or just rising off the ground.

#2. Extend stun with 3P. From here I do many things:
A. Launch immediately with 236P, 66K, 8K or throw.

B. If I want to watch for a hold I switch my launchers to 8P and 3P4P. If the hold comes I 41236T, 6T or 66T depending on my positioning.

C. Uzukaze / Tenku mixups off of 6K which is my "Comeback attempt / Close out round option." @Saber stated these mixups give nothing and this is true if Momiji enters them in the middle of critical level 1/2 because the options that draw the opponents attention away from holding the important moves like Uzukaze K and Tenku K either give lower damage than stun launch or nothing at all. However after a 3P, doing Uzukaze/Tenku stuff off of 6K leads to good results because she is put at level 2/3.

1. Uzukaze K. This will put them at threshold where they must hold if they don't want to take tenku K.
2. 6KP. This leads to 100 damage; 1/3rd of their life bar.
3. Tenku K. Self explanatory.
4. Tenku P. This will lead to 112 points of damage.
5. Land into 3P4P. This launch will also lead to 112 points of damage.
6. Land into 6K. This launch leads to 107 points.
7. Tenku throw.
8. Landing throw. This is the most risky because it involves too much reading for the hi counter damage IMO.


D. 44P mixups. I chose an option and commit to it. No point in extra guesswork as Momiji when she doesn't have to do that.
1. Uzukaze K. See Route 2C1-8 for your options.
2. Uzukaze PK. This leads to 108 damage.
3. Uzukaze PP. Will put you at Critical level 3 for the generic CB/Launch/Throw Mixup.

E. Extend stun with PP8P mixups or PPP/ PPK. After extending stun with 3P then doing PP there's no reason to stop at PP unless you are throwing. Stopping at PP after a 3P extension just gives you critical level 2 with no burst chance. If your intention was critical level 2 from the start you can accomplish this with just PPP and PP6K off a CH 6P without having to extend stun with 3P.

#3. Throw.

#4. PP string mixups. Her mixup after 2 jabs is pretty strong.
1. PPK. Mixup options are detailed in route 2C1-8.
2. PPP or PPP4P. PPP4P guarantees a 3P4P launch for 113 points. PPP is Critical Level 2 in which you have the option to setup burst with 3P/6K/P, launch or throw.
3.PP into Uzukaze mixups. I would rate these higher if the mixup off uzukaze K was stronger at this point in stun but it basically gives nothing unless you commit to the burst.

#5. 3K mixups
1. 3KP into Uzukaze. See 2D for options. Unlike in 2D I would consider doing nothing from Uzukaze because you are still left in + frames if they stagger escape for a 50/50.
2. Lauch high or throw after 3k.

#6. Extend stun with 6K or CH confirmed 6PK.
A. A slight alteration of 2A-D. If you hit the lab you'll know what options you gain and lose from those.
B. If I watch for holds I launch with 8P or extend stun with PP/3P. PP will bring to level 2 for a burst attempt. 3P is just level 2 but puts them in the same scenario as #2. You cannot burst if you extend with 3P.

#7. Extend stun with a single jab. I don't do this much because Route #1 is superior IMO.
A. 9K > 66PP for 110+ damage. This is the only reason to ever extend stun with a single jab and the only way to setup 9K from CH 6P.
B. Route 2A-D; basically accomplishing the same thing as a 3P extension without as many options.

CH 3P or any other deep stun initiator

Routes:

#1. Mixup between 9K, 214PP+K, 6H+K. Her guaranteed options are best used after deep stuns initiatiors like this because they force must hold situations.

#2. Slight alteration of 2A-E. This is just to teach them that committing to stagger escape to get out of her guaranteed options isn't a smart defense.

#3. 6P mixups. This does the same thing as her PPP/ PPK mixups only starting mid.
A. 6PK series.
B. 6PP for critical level 3.

#4. PPK mixups. I would only do this if I want the burst mixup because other wise the guaranteed damage from 9K is high enough.

...Well shit I basically made half a guide for Momiji in one post.

:momiji:
 
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splslick

Well-Known Member
Ok so I was watching @QueenJakheiho combo video of Momiji and was messing around with one of the combos in it. 6h+k, 3kp7, pk, 8p, pppp is the combo I'm referring too. Anyways after you land the 3kp7, is going for a 5t a possible mixup? I set the dummy to stagger escape fast which left me at +6 and 5t is 5 frames. If the dummy presses a button, I can press anything and get a free counterhit. So I was just wondering if I am on the right track or if I am doing something wrong? @Saber @Tenryuga Any Momiji player for that matter :D
 

Saber

Well-Known Member
First off, 6H+K to 3K is not guaranteed. If it's SEed and blocked, then you will be left at disadvantage.

Second, it's only a viable mixup is you know for sure that your opponent is SEing. In a real match, for the most part, how much an opponent SEs varies, and if he's not SEing, it's not a setup that would work and you'd be left at disadvantage since you whiff the throw. Plus, 5T is a neutral throw - it's breakable.

It's better to do 6H+K > 3P > launch or tick throw.
 

splslick

Well-Known Member
First off, 6H+K to 3K is not guaranteed. If it's SEed and blocked, then you will be left at disadvantage.

Second, it's only a viable mixup is you know for sure that your opponent is SEing. In a real match, for the most part, how much an opponent SEs varies, and if he's not SEing, it's not a setup that would work and you'd be left at disadvantage since you whiff the throw. Plus, 5T is a neutral throw - it's breakable.

It's better to do 6H+K > 3P > launch or tick throw.
So pretty much I should set the dummy to S.E. on fastest then....That's good to know...Thanks Saber :D

*Do you know any good match videos of Momiji outside of XCaliburbladez?
 

J.D.E.

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Momiji is arguably one my best characters right now. As a matter of fact, right now she is top 2. I just hate that whenever that I try to practice her through the online netcode, my inputs are non-existent. For an example, when I low throw punish, instead of getting 2T (just taking the throw damage) I get a launching 1T (because I haven't found anything that works from it), it's pretty irritating. Also, when I would start holding mid kicks, I was supposed to get a 6PK out of it but instead, it would get blocked. Not to mention the guard breaks lol

Then after breakable objects, instead of getting a 236P+KPP684T (which is inescapable), I got held like 3 times last night. Realistically, if you're hitting buttons like that, you're eating more damage. I'm not here to complain though. It's just annoying how online rewards piss-poor play & dysfunctional for players who want to use it for practice properly aka learning experience. I try to tolerate it because I enjoy my friends as they do me & talk to them as well & don't post a lot here because there's really no point in complaining about it since everyone who knows DOA that online is bad.

Has anybody found a follow up from the low throw punish (1T)? That was one of the questions that I had. The other was ways to use tech from hard knockdowns (1PK & 2H+K).
 
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Saber

Well-Known Member
Has anybody found a follow up from the low throw punish (1T)? That was one of the questions that I had. The other was ways to use tech from hard knockdowns (1PK & 2H+K).
1T is best used if the opponent is unsafe while BT crouch since the followups of either K or P are guaranteed.

1T, if used to punish unsafe lows, is used simply for mixups sake. The P followup is useless, so don't bother with it. It's just a 50/50 between K or T if they hold. If they low hold, then 3P. You can even choose not to do anything as well and be left at +11, IIRC.

1T is best on HiC, though. HiC 1T~K will instantly get you to threshold and you can still use 1T~T for big damage.

Hard knockdowns I just try to jump over them and see if I can beat them out of WUK with 9P~P+K~P. Alternatively you can space out with 7P and try to whiff punish a whiffed WUK with 66P or 66K.
 

J.D.E.

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Usually I just opt for the throw damage after the punish due to that. For 9P options, yeah I also try to time the wake up if I know they like to hit buttons on the ground. Other than that, I just create space & play the footsies game.

Thanks for sharing.
 
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