Welcome To The World of DEAD OR ALIVE 5 - A DOA5 ALPHA DEMO TUTORIAL

[EMPEROR_COW]

The presentation is done well and the information is good for the most part. I only watched the hold video though.

A few notes:

- The text can be hard to read at times.

- In the hold video you note that attacks with a single input that hit multiple times cannot be held after the first hit. This is not universal.

- As I mentioned in the past, you're going to have to make changes/updates to these videos... in as little as two weeks even. I know you don't mind doing the extra work, but I really think this project would've been better suited for the retail release. Depending on how much of a stickler you are to minor details, you may even need to redo the entire project upon release.

thanks i really appreaciate the feed back ..


this is how powerful the community impact is when it comes to promoting a game ...
already in less than 2 days i got near 7000 hits on the main vid and several hundreds to almost a thousand on the sub vids ...

if anything this community should try and produce their findings and research and not just be confined to specialized sites that only deal with DOA...

for example the new ayane combo vid ... thats footage right there
post it on srk and eventhubs ... let the rest of the fgc see what the game has to offer ...

same for masters hayate/hayabusa combo vids ...
i say reupload them to have a recent date and send them to the major sites (srk,eventhubs.. etc ) ... they will be front paged and headlined just like this .. theres so much great doa material out there but i feel its not getting the outlet it deserves ...

you guys keep talking about wanting to change peoples opinion on doa .. and about wanting them to appreciate it more .. well how the hell is that gonna happen if nothing is presented to them ..???

as for updating the project or even redoing it altogether .. well only time will tell ... im at the last few months of my PhD and end of september is the end of my data collection and then i need to start doing my write up ... so i dunno if im gonna revisit this or not ... (but knowing how bad my ocd is .. i probably will lol .. and since ive done it once .. re-editing and updating the text shouldnt be hard .. i still have all the source text and footage saved.. but i wont do it straight away ... i might wait a month or so .. till enough research has been done on the game .. and a good chunk of its potential has been tapped into... we'll see ) ...

i just hope this sparks some inspiration so other people can produce some content like this as well and really show what doa is about ...

throw something positive out there for a change ...

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

i mean theres so much to be added or changed with the final release ..
if you noticed i didnt dig into the details of the frame data because i was almost certain this would change ...

we also dont know for sure if there will be water/snow stun effects yet as we havent seen a wet part of a stage yet (maybe the bottom of the waterfall? who knows) ...
then theres the escapable throw combos... theres downthrows ... theres strings that link to throws like tina's knee and kokoros PP throw ..
there might be new mechanics that we are unaware of altogether ...

one i can think of is ... with pai from vf .. if shes as exact as they say she is .. then shes gonna have a totally new mechanic introduced to the game .... she has a move that makes her stick her leg out .. and it will make an opponent coming at her trip and fall on their face ... even if they werent attacking .. she literally trips u ... i wonder if thats gonna be in and i wonder if they will give it to one of the doa cast ...

then theres the mechanic that master pointed out ...
hayate's cartwheel can rebounce from a launch .. and you can acctually see it in my environment video but i didnt explore it .. it was purely a coincidental finding .. so whoknows if other characters have similar moves and who knows how thats gonna impact the game ... (if its there ofcourse)

theres alot to doa than people take it for ... and its up to us to show that ..

the demo has so much potential for material to showcase ...

THAT builds hype .. and THAT attracts more players .. and THAT gives you better sales and tournament turn up . (please lets not bring that forbidden topic into this .. lol )

 

[DrDogg]

this is how powerful the community impact is when it comes to promoting a game ...
already in less than 2 days i got near 7000 hits on the main vid and several hundreds to almost a thousand on the sub vids ...

if anything this community should try and produce their findings and research and not just be confined to specialized sites that only deal with DOA...

throw something positive out there for a change ...

To me, this is a double-edged sword. You have the casual players who Tecmo needs to have a chance at their sales projections. Then you have the tournament players who add longevity to a title and keep the hype going until the next game in the series.

THAT builds hype .. and THAT attracts more players .. and THAT gives you better sales and tournament turn up . (please lets not bring that forbidden topic into this .. lol )

This statement is 100% true when talking about the casual audience. These videos help generate hype, but I also don't think that the casual audience is all that into learning the game from the demo. There are only four characters and no online play.

Two months after the release of the demo, I highly doubt many casuals are still playing it. This video won't change that. However, this video will be great for when the final game releases and people see tournament videos or whatever and decide they really want to learn the game.

On the flip side, from a competitive standpoint, I think showcasing the game in its current form does more harm than good. We need the greater FGC to take interest in the game, but I don't see many people giving DOA5 more than one chance. So we have to make sure that chance comes at the best possible time. Now is not that time.

I don't want people taking apart the demo or even trying to look at the depth in the demo. The game is not at a competitive level... yet. Assuming the retail release is up to snuff, that's when I'd like to see more attention drawn toward DOA5 because that's when the game can stand on it's own against the other competitive fighters (hopefully).

If you introduce the competitive scene to the game too soon, they won't give it another chance later on.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

snip

i understand where you're coming from i really do ..
but i strongly feel that the demo really shows promise ..

and alot of the top players dont know jack shit about the game and trash it with no basis .. the biggest most recent example was ..

"I have no idea what im doing .. this game has no depth ! "

that has to be the most ignorant statement ever ... and to be honest it was that stupid statement that lit the spark for me to do this tutorial

the tutorial doesnt harm the game .. it just sets the ground rules of it .. which i am 100% certain will not change ...

and if they dont like the game then let there be new players born ...

look at wolfkrone in sf4 .. the guy literally came out of nowhere ... and all of a sudden he started walking all over the competition .. doa can have their equivalent of that as well .. it is possible ..

the rules you're setting for tournament viability are a little too strict ..
look at sfxt .. the buggiest broken ass game out there .. and still it has a scene ... alot of top players left it .. but alot hung on .. and its making major events ..

now i for one think that doa5 is a hell lot better than that piece of shit ( no offense to the fans of it ) ..i went to every alpha build of sfxt.. and in every build i either pointed out a broken aspect or a glitch or just a broken mechanic ... and the sad thing is alot of what i mentioned carried on till the final product .. (some acctually got wiped out which is good but the games still shit) ... but what im trying to get at is ... if sfxt got out there to where it is now through hype and alpha demo demonstration .. then so can doa5 ...

and it IS up to us to generate that hype ...

if you're afraid to showcase what you have now then you've already lost the battle ..

 

[DrDogg]

the tutorial doesnt harm the game .. it just sets the ground rules of it .. which i am 100% certain will not change ...

I already know that at least parts of your video are incorrect, either because things in the game have changed, or because the video was inaccurate from the start (the multi-hit attack comment I made in my previous post).

As far as your SFxT comparison, we've been through this discussion before, so I'll keep it short and to the point. DOA has NEVER had a solid competitive scene, SF has. We already know that getting brand new players is not enough because that's never worked for DOA in the past.

 

[Berzerk!]

one i can think of is ... with pai from vf .. if shes as exact as they say she is .. then shes gonna have a totally new mechanic introduced to the game .... she has a move that makes her stick her leg out .. and it will make an opponent coming at her trip and fall on their face ... even if they werent attacking .. she literally trips u ... i wonder if thats gonna be in and i wonder if they will give it to one of the doa cast ..

Pai no longer has that move in FS so it won't be in DOA5. It's been changed to a medium speed mid strike that can lead to her stance or a string with a half circular kick so it's more generally useful and still can have an effect on evading opponents.

Speaking of which it is my hope that sidestep in doa5 is improved and the moves that track are reduced in favor of more clear usage for half circular and full circular hitting attacks.

That's a subsystem the game needs and if implemented will involve further update to the video.

PS Emperor some of your posts are a little hard to read in terms of formatting with non-capitalised sentences and use of periods instead of commas and full stops; could you adjust the formatting particularly of the longer posts? It will help to take your thesis in Doa onboard as much as a your PHD subject (not the only dr around here DrDogg!)

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

PS Emperor some of your posts are a little hard to read in terms of formatting with non-capitalised sentences and use of periods instead of commas and full stops; could you adjust the formatting particularly of the longer posts? It will help to take your thesis in Doa onboard as much as a your PHD subject (not the only dr around here DrDogg!)

Lol.. I'll keep that in mind.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

THIS is how you create hype !

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/...o-videos-featuring-ayane-hayate-and-hayabusa/

I gave them the tip about these vids ..

Dont keep the knowledge to yourselves !! SHARE IT !

 

[grap3fruitman]

THIS is how you create hype !

That's how? Two hour live streams don't cut it? =(

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

That's how? Two hour live streams don't cut it? =(

they dont cut it if you dont promote them on major sites ... for everyone to see
whats the point if you just do them for fans that are garanteed to buy the game anyway?
you need to bring it out there and stick it to people's faces !

in the end the people that dont know anything about it will still not know anything about it

and the sheep that follow idiotic comments like "i dont know what im doing .. this game has no depth!" will stay fixated on that moronic opinion ...

if you have a live stream .. promote it on the major sites ...
MK does it
SF does it
SC does it ..

i dont see why we cant do the same ...

 

[Rikuto]

The stream was promoted everywhere that your videos were, including SRK.

That said, good job with it, but Drdogg isn't exactly wrong here. You have to be careful how you're trying to sell the game when the only audience you can hope to gain have traditionally hated it.

First impressions are the most important, so don't tell them a bunch of stuff that they hate for their first impression. You dig?

There's a reason you don't see us hyping the game unless something very positive happens during development. We would just be echo'ing things people don't want to hear.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

the problem is that you cant just have content and then NO content ... it has to have a constant pace ...

hopefully my vids and now the combo vids i tipped them on will turn some heads around ... and with e3 around the corner ... that should also generate some more hype ...

and i dunno if its true or not but i read somewhere that they might be revealing janlee for london mcm ... if thats the case then hell fricken yeah !

 

[Awesmic]

Whew, that's a relief. Everyone I was expecting to trash Emperor Cow's efforts are actually helping him out.

Way to go, man. Just follow the advice given from the "no holds in stun" crew - for lack of better words - and you may gain more interest outside the community than expected. It's no guarantee, but if they know better, I guess they know better.

 

[Gill Hustle]

the problem is that you cant just have content and then NO content ... it has to have a constant pace ...

hopefully my vids and now the combo vids i tipped them on will turn some heads around ... and with e3 around the corner ... that should also generate some more hype ...

and i dunno if its true or not but i read somewhere that they might be revealing janlee for london mcm ... if thats the case then hell fricken yeah !

This is how I felt since the whole Fingercramp incident.

I made and posted my vids just really to have something going, Team Ninja has been REAL SLOW at putting out info. Granted they aren't Capcom, but the Marvel 3/SFxT videos had people hype, especially when they couldn't get to a location to play. It's all we had to go on to keep interest and hype.

I think of myself as more of a fanservice guy than tournament player, but as I have been walking the line and now begin to cross over more, things like this are more clear to me.

I think someone said, " No news is bad news, just publicity" or something like that . . .

 

[Allan Paris]

yeah this has changed its no longer possible

feel free to test it out... if someone else can confirm that would be better ..

Yeah, you can't SE them anymore. I wonder why they did that and if that will change in the end. There was something else I wanted to bring up but I honestly don't feel like looking through all those videos again, right now. I will get back to you on it.

 

[Berzerk!]

The stream was promoted everywhere that your videos were, including SRK.

That said, good job with it, but Drdogg isn't exactly wrong here. You have to be careful how you're trying to sell the game when the only audience you can hope to gain have traditionally hated it.

First impressions are the most important, so don't tell them a bunch of stuff that they hate for their first impression. You dig?

There's a reason you don't see us hyping the game unless something very positive happens during development. We would just be echo'ing things people don't want to hear.

I agree, that's why I was concerned with the naming convention on the menu for the Triangle System being called "Rock Paper Scissors" because it raises that negative perception people have.

We should be educating people but utilising the correct terminology, and avoiding where possible language that will dissuade people from listening in the first place. I still think this part is a concern.

 

[Rikuto]

the problem is that you cant just have content and then NO content ...

Yes, yes you can. That's a break inbetween meals. You shouldn't be attempting to give people content that isn't ready for consumption. That's like feeding your children raw fish -- some people may like it but mostly it's just going to turn them off from ever trying anything like sushi for years.

People who are willing to consume your content will come, its why they are here, but trying to explain the working mechanics of a poor game is just going to reinforce the idea that DOA is a poor game. I'd give it some time to fix itself first.

 

[EMPEROR_COW]

Yes, yes you can. That's a break inbetween meals. You shouldn't be attempting to give people content that isn't ready for consumption. That's like feeding your children raw fish -- some people may like it but mostly it's just going to turn them off from ever trying anything like sushi for years.

People who are willing to consume your content will come, its why they are here, but trying to explain the working mechanics of a poor game is just going to reinforce the idea that DOA is a poor game. I'd give it some time to fix itself first.

I have to say i disagree ..
having that kind of defeatist mentality means you've already lost ...

I dont see it as a poor game .. infact i see it as an amazing game with a very different system from anything else out there ... and yes i want to share that with people ... especially morons that say something like ..

"I dont know what im doing... this game has no depth! "

i keep going back to that quote because a large chunk of the FGC thinks the same way ... How can you judge something you know nothing about ?!

On the other hand you have a part of the doa crowd themselves that are hating so much on the game ... so i ask them .. why the hell are you playing it if you dont like it ? if it doesnt fit your taste .. find something out there that does .. The fighting game world is filled with different games with different sets of rules ...

I personally felt doa5 is a huge breath of fresh air with this alpha demo ..
sure as hell flows better for me personally than any other game currently out there ... and it sure as hell shows promise in terms of system tweaks without taking away anything of the core gameplay ... (unlike scv ... which pretty much redesigned everything but it is debatable weather that was better or not .. again this goes down to personal opinion .. im not going to debate this again )

And yes there is soo much that can be extracted from this demo ..
you talked about a live stream ? how about a live stream every 2 weeks ?.. not just the one off ..

You have combos being discovered all the time ..
I still havent seen anything done for hitomi thats good enough out there yet everyone keeps saying shes top tier ... then show it in the vids ... and SHARE IT ...

You can do comparison vids for the characters and how they've evolved from doa4 to 5 .. not just in appearance but in mechanics ... yes its scattered all over the forum .. but a vid would add to the value and theres another thing to release to the public ..

Then theres character breakdowns ... pros, cons .. launches, gimmicks .... initial frame data .. whats safe on block whats not ... etc ... when you have something like that .. you can easily do an update vid in the future when the final game is out and say look this is how the character has evolved since alpha .. ! thats content for you right there !

Then you can further expand on relaunch setups and how you can utilize the environment to your advantage ...

You can make a whole vid on powerblow setups ...
- punishing wakeups
- punishing whiffs ..
- free canceling into them to screw with the opponents hold ..
theres another vid ...
- then you can talk about powerblows that give you a step back over ones that charge stationary ... and the merits of that ..


all those topics may seem like they dont mean much to you guys but that is how the sf community grew in visual content .. they cover EVERYTHING .. and the promote it everywhere ! to the point that not only do they have specialized sf sites .. the also have specialized character sites !!

The vids dont have to be hours and hours long like mine .. you can simply make little vid snips .. 5-10 minutes tops .. it will be seen by other people and it will be criticized either positively or negatively ... and thats how you generate both discussion and hype ..

I dont see why the same cannot be done for doa ... i just feel like the effort is being too restricted amongst yourselves and you're not sharing all your findings with the general crowd .. and yet you still want people to change their opinions and you still want pros to like it more ...

And for some reason you guys seem to have this negativity towards casuals ... news flash! all the pros used to be casuals at some point ... from casuals comes new pros ...

add to that the fact that you're dealing with a whole new generation ... for many people DOA5 will be the first game for them ... and for others .. they never got to play 3 or 4 because they never had either xbox ...

if u have a big enough casual crowd .. you will have a big enough tournament scene ... thats the way i see it ... but casual doesnt necessarily mean stupid and doesnt know how to play and just looks at tits .. there are casuals out there that like the knowledge .. like to try out stuff and like to evolve in their little environment ... and with online right now they even have a better chance to shine ...

i just feel that alot of people just dont see the big picture in all of this ..
and its quite upsetting if you ask me

 

[Rikuto]

I don't have a defeatist attitude, I'm simply patient enough to know when the best opportunity for advertisement is, and educated enough to know how a bad advertisement will drive someone off.

I dont see it as a poor game ...

Well, you're advertising it to people who do. They don't share your point of view and will most likely take your enthusiasm over things they know they dislike as assurance that the next game will be no different. From that point on, they will pretty much stop paying attention to any DOA 5 related news. That's exactly how things happen.

On the other hand you have a part of the doa crowd themselves that are hating so much on the game ... so i ask them .. why the hell are you playing it if you dont like it ? if it doesnt fit your taste .. find something out there that does .. The fighting game world is filled with different games with different sets of rules ...

We're not playing it. To be precise, no one is playing it.

What we are doing is observing the potential and trying to guide it into something that is played.

And for some reason you guys seem to have this negativity towards casuals ... news flash! all the pros used to be casuals at some point ... from casuals comes new pros ...

I don't hate casuals. I just recognize that their opinions are basically worthless when it comes to game design as they will buy anything they are told to buy like stupid sheep. If saying that makes me an asshole then I guess I'm an asshole, but it's still the truth. Game Over says it's not within my capacity to co-exist with someone of deep degrees of stupidity, but I'd argue that it's quite easy for me to do so. The stupid ones, however, are driven mad by the fact that I'll casually call them out on it like it isn't a big deal to do so. It's more like an intolerance for the hurtful truths I let out as easily as I breathe.

In order to expand your market, you have to appeal to the hardcore and gain their blessing. They are the thinkers and the ones who are difficult to manage. Only after you do this does a game start becoming profitable via word of mouth. The casuals themselves are the easily manipulated masses who allow themselves to be dominated by word of mouth coming from the hardcore. The hardcore are the foundation for every success story, though.

I recognize the worth of a casual in the same way I recognize the worth of a peasant tilling the fields. A necessary but relatively unimportant chap who may one day rise up to great things if he's ambitious enough, but no one will really miss if something happens to him because there are always ten more ready to take his place.

if u have a big enough casual crowd .. you will have a big enough tournament scene ... thats the way i see it ...

Well, you're wrong. I wish you were right, but you're wrong. Casuals don't feel any need to go to tournaments. If they did, DOA 4 would've been very successful on that front, but instead it was an abomination of a tournament game. Not really a matter of opinion but a fact, that nobody cared. History is not something we can disagree with.

i just feel that alot of people just dont see the big picture in all of this ..
and its quite upsetting if you ask me

Your enthusiasm is nice, but honestly we see the picture a lot more clearly than you do because we were actually there for the tournament scene when it existed. We know what has worked and what has not, and we've seen all of these things tried multiple times before.

You may not like it, no one is saying you have to... but that's the way reality is. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, and it seems you are ignoring history. A shame, because I can see you have nothing but good intentions.

 

[Allan Paris]

You can do comparison vids for the characters and how they've evolved from doa4 to 5 .. not just in appearance but in mechanics ... yes its scattered all over the forum .. but a vid would add to the value and theres another thing to release to the public ..

Then theres character breakdowns ... pros, cons .. launches, gimmicks .... initial frame data .. whats safe on block whats not ... etc ... when you have something like that .. you can easily do an update vid in the future when the final game is out and say look this is how the character has evolved since alpha .. ! thats content for you right there !

There are only 4 characters released, right now. If we had the whole cast then maybe this can be done but, for 4 characters, no. You could just wait until you have the full game as DrDogg has mentioned and go from there. That way you are not doing the same thing twice. You can't really go in depth at all with this demo because you are playing in the alpha stage. In all seriousness I could do a DOA4 tutorial and we'd damn near have the same content. DOA4 is terrible game for competitive as you know.


You did good with the videos, I like the idea of them overall. Still, they would've been better, perfect even, with finalized information. I don't know if you are getting that or not. Most casuals are not going to sit and watch these in their entirety. Hardcore competitive players on the hand will. That is the problem. This demo is not far from DOA4.