System Force Techs in DOA5U

[Brute]

How did it go again, good offense should be rewarded with more offense...

Problem is, that's not really the case with force techs either. Helena in vanilla and Rachel in 5U are continuously awarded (notice I did not use "rewarded") with continuous pressure for succeeding at a mind game that is overwhelmingly in their favor. It's not a "good" offense as much as a braindead one.

That is why the force tech system needed serious re-working from DOA5. But, the "solution" in Ultimate was to make the situation even worse. Give the blender to a powerhouse heavyweight with godly SS abilities and OH resets into easy launch->damage juggles but make it so that in situations where the floored opponent can easily tech-roll to avoid force-tech pressure they STILL get FT invincibility? I mean come on. This is ridiculous.

 

[FakeSypha]

Anyway, since day one when I noticed this crap in the ground game, I'm just hoping for TN to realize how wrong it is and go back to how untechables and FTs worked on vanilla. Also, TN while you're at it patch out bounds making them work in the way they're supposed to: on airborne opponents.

 

[MasterHavik]

How did it go again, good offense should be rewarded with more offense...
TN probably wants players too not get rewarded too much for opening people up so it can go back and forth, same reason TN loves the holds.

But we no new animation on them...it would be nice to have do something different for once.

 

[d3v]

Problem is, that's not really the case with force techs either. Helena in vanilla and Rachel in 5U are continuously awarded (notice I did not use "rewarded") with continuous pressure for succeeding at a mind game that is overwhelmingly in their favor. It's not a "good" offense as much as a braindead one.

That is why the force tech system needed serious re-working from DOA5. But, the "solution" in Ultimate was to make the situation even worse. Give the blender to a powerhouse heavyweight with godly SS abilities and OH resets into easy launch->damage juggles but make it so that in situations where the floored opponent can easily tech-roll to avoid force-tech pressure they STILL get FT invincibility? I mean come on. This is ridiculous.

Let's keep the balance discussion out of the thread first and go back into the concept of force techs and oki as a whole in the game.

The reason alot of us who like FTs do so is because, aside from it, there doesn't seem to be much in terms of other options to limit your opponents options on wake-up and/or to force them to block.

 

[Brute]

Let's keep the balance discussion out of the thread first and go back into the concept of force techs and oki as a whole in the game.

That's what I was implying. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. I heard Blackmamba say that the Rachel/Helena FT situation was like playing RPS and that it's just guessing like the rest of DOA or w/e. Thing is, that comparison is just horrible. In RPS you get 33% chance of victory, 33% chance of failure, 33% chance of tie because your options match the opponent's exactly. Anyone who actually looks at the game knows that you do not have the same options as your opponent in the blender situation. It's not RPS. It basically drowns your opponent's options indefinitely, hoping they have a miniscule chance at guessing correctly.
Normal FTs (say, that aren't guaranteed) reward the FTer by applying some benefit to the offensive player (the risk taker) who is properly punishing the opponent for not tech rolling. This is why normally force techs are totally different from what Rachel/past Helena have/had. Legit force techs are something that got gimped and I would like back for balance reasons. This new system is really irking me. The Rachel/Helena junk isn't, and I don't want my support of the FT concept to be associated with those two.

The reason alot of us who like FTs do so is because, aside from it, there doesn't seem to be much in terms of other options to limit your opponents options on wake-up and/or to force them to block.

Why force them to block? Why not play some mind games and force them to whiff a slow kick and get some guaranteed damage? With Ryu, you can do 2P 7P.
You can do 6KP->Air-throw
You can do 7P->Shoho Izuna
You can do 7P->6P+K
You can do 8T/Ongyoin 8T etc.

I'm sure there are great options with other characters, too.

 

[d3v]

Why force them to block? Why not play some mind games and force them to whiff a slow kick and get some guaranteed damage? With Ryu, you can do 2P 7P.
You can do 6KP->Air-throw
You can do 7P->Shoho Izuna
You can do 7P->6P+K
You can do 8T/Ongyoin 8T etc.

I'm sure there are great options with other characters, too.

Because it implies slowing down and giving the person who got knocked down the initiative. Even if you can counter all of them, they still have all their options available. Shutting down options (have them not wake up with kicks, forcing them to block etc) is part of oki in all fighters 2D and 3D. By not allowing the attacker to limit options, then getting knocked down might as well be a complete reset situation.

 

[Brute]

Running up to them and baiting a whiff to punish it immediately with massive, guaranteed damage is hardly what I call slow. They have 3 options on knockdown when you're rushing at them: mid K, low K tech up, each with risks. You have far, far greater options than those (turtle, try to force-tech, whiff bait, anticipate a hold, possibly use ground throws, reposition yourself in the arena to avoid dangerzones, etc.). So you are still "shutting down their options," you're still moving fast, you still have the advantage.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Unless you're resetting it to neutral, you're still reacting to the person on the ground. With a force tech, you're forcing them into one specific situation and they have to react to what you do.

You're still at an advantage either way, but with force techs, you're dictating that the rushdown continues and with a knockdown, you're just in a good situation where you can react to everything the opponent does.

 

[SilverForte]

It's no different than virtua fighter, where someone who is knocked down pretty much gets a free wakeup. You can punish those wakeups but you can't knock them back on their feet or anything.

 

[d3v]

It's no different than virtua fighter, where someone who is knocked down pretty much gets a free wakeup. You can punish those wakeups but you can't knock them back on their feet or anything.

Jean can put his opponents in an unblockable situation on wakeup. The VF players I know actually find it comparable to Rachel's FTs in this game (same folks also don't know what the hullabaloo with FTs is about).

 

[UncleKitchener]

I don't klnow how we can compare the VF wakeup and okizemi game to DOA's. They're comepletely different games in that regard.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Was actually talking to some VF guys who post on both SRK and VFDC and the consensus was that they didn't see why folks were raising a stink over force techs since being able to limit peoples options on wake up is only natural when playing competitively.

-Im not quite getting what they are saying. Force techs is one of those tools used to limit peoples options on wake up(when playing competitively). So those who utilised them would naturally be upset.

-With the new....well the slight restoration of pre DOA4 ground game, players will have to come up with new set-ups. Like the use of strikes that do not allow rising attacks, but will allow techrolling. Strikes that beat both rising attack attempts. Uramawari tech, where the offensive player cleanly jump over a down opponent attempting rising attacks. Or character tech like Rachel's that avoid the whole rising attack scenario.

 

[Dr Sexual]

Is there been any data on invincibility frames when grounded? Ein's ground game feels so much weaker than it did in 4 because everything magically whiffs (Even though it clearly hits) on grounded opponents. Even if they dont tech.