Codemaster92163
Well-Known Member
You have a copy of DOA5U already? May you be willing to test just a small amount of things for me? I'd appreciate it (:
Lets be serious here Alpha-152 needs to be banned.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Thank you for being the only person against the ban to actually raise valid debatable points. You guys say that her parries leave her in a bad position but from what I have seen in tournament play a majority of the time they work out very nicely for her and get her out of that situation where shes in trouble for having no wake up game. I agree that her strings are predictable but that is the point. The risk Alpha takes in using them is far less than the risk I take for attempting a hold. If my read is successful, I take maybe 15% of Alpha's health. Some characters with advanced holds can do more than that. If my read is incorrect I risk getting stunned, or taking 56% damage from B.U.R.S.T or 30%+ from other grabs.
Every strategy you are presenting to me is "make the right read during the entire course of the match." This wouldn't be an issue if there was a consistent way to do that or if Alpha was just as screwed for making bad reads like she was intended to be. Against other characters such as Sarah, the strategies to defeat them are clear and consistent and that is why even though she is a clear cut above the DOA cast she's not going to get banned.
I've only seen Alpha have trouble to regain momentum in the two matches I presented earlier where in the first the opponent had the player downloaded and in the second the player made too many bad reads. Though I definitely agree with you that she was designed and intended to have trouble regaining momentum. Like you said she isn't broken but extremely uneven and many who support the ban think so as well. In practice her design doesn't add up to what it is supposed to be on paper: A glass cannon. In 5U though she's taking more damage than everybody else so that helps her case. Thanks again for your input. I only wish the Alpha players were capable of the same thing seeing as they could probably provide even more insight.
Codemaster92163
Well-Known Member
Well, it's not that her parries are bad now, but they USED to be bad, and they should go back to their old status. Essentially, they were Kasumi's 43H parries without any of the follow ups and more recovery tacked onto them. So I understand everyone's issue with it now.
I hear her 66T is also being nerfed, so she no longer has a broken OH. But I promise, I've played many alpha players over the last few years, and it's always been so easy for me to not let them get the offensive edge, but that could just be me. Still, I figure if I can do it, everyone else should be able to as well. And it's not so much that you constantly have to make the right reads against her, just do it once or twice and she's in a lot of trouble. I don't really recommend countering against her, but more so 2P ing her out of her strings. For example, everyone knows the followup of 6PPP, and her KKKKK string alternates between highs and mids (with one exception, but the low kick isn't too dangerous). She has other strings that, once past a certain portion where they can be mixed up, have highs in them that you can easily crush. Of course, it's not going to get you a lot of damage, but it'll break her strings and cause her to drop her offensive.
I am completely for her receiving several nerfs, though, so don't get me wrong. As I said earlier, her parry needs to be reverted back to its old crappy DOAD self, and her B.U.R.S.T. throw needs its damage toned down, or be similar to Raidou's OH from DOAD, where the first part just grabbed them, and for the explosion, he needed to input another throw, so it was a breakable super-throw. I would also like it for her 2T throw damage to drop down to something closer to Kasumi's, but maybe with a little more power than hers. Let's all hope that her new jello-weight class lets people punish her far more severely than they can now. But even if not, even if nothing changes (except for 66T, since I have heard it's just a normal throw now, and that her new weight class is INSANELY light), I personally see no reason to ban her.
I hear her 66T is also being nerfed, so she no longer has a broken OH. But I promise, I've played many alpha players over the last few years, and it's always been so easy for me to not let them get the offensive edge, but that could just be me. Still, I figure if I can do it, everyone else should be able to as well. And it's not so much that you constantly have to make the right reads against her, just do it once or twice and she's in a lot of trouble. I don't really recommend countering against her, but more so 2P ing her out of her strings. For example, everyone knows the followup of 6PPP, and her KKKKK string alternates between highs and mids (with one exception, but the low kick isn't too dangerous). She has other strings that, once past a certain portion where they can be mixed up, have highs in them that you can easily crush. Of course, it's not going to get you a lot of damage, but it'll break her strings and cause her to drop her offensive.
I am completely for her receiving several nerfs, though, so don't get me wrong. As I said earlier, her parry needs to be reverted back to its old crappy DOAD self, and her B.U.R.S.T. throw needs its damage toned down, or be similar to Raidou's OH from DOAD, where the first part just grabbed them, and for the explosion, he needed to input another throw, so it was a breakable super-throw. I would also like it for her 2T throw damage to drop down to something closer to Kasumi's, but maybe with a little more power than hers. Let's all hope that her new jello-weight class lets people punish her far more severely than they can now. But even if not, even if nothing changes (except for 66T, since I have heard it's just a normal throw now, and that her new weight class is INSANELY light), I personally see no reason to ban her.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I don't see how I am blowing people off when all I want for them to do is provide input. I never said they were incapable of providing nor insight nor do I doubt it. I personally don't care if they aren't "strat-savvy" or don't know how to word things I just want them to provide information on how to stop their character. I'm not the type to attack or insult anybody's intelligence and I am offended you see me that way. I'm merely an individual that likes to discuss things and partake in debates such as these to gather information, which I think everyone else should do regardless of their skill level or if they think they are "worthy" enough. I'm certainly a nobody in this community as far as accomplishments go. Still not gonna stop me from defending my opinions or presenting them.
Anyway's Codemaster provided what I sought to gain from this thread so I'm done here. It definitely sounds like she will be more manageable in 5U and if not the steps to make her manageable seem clear enough.
Anyway's Codemaster provided what I sought to gain from this thread so I'm done here. It definitely sounds like she will be more manageable in 5U and if not the steps to make her manageable seem clear enough.
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Dutch Samurai
Active Member
I see a lot of people debating the properties of her moveset, but I'm willing to bet that the majority of us can't play that shit out in our heads to determine if she's too ridiculous a character to be in tournaments. Can we just see some video of a strong player playing as her so we can see the ridiculousness (if any) first-hand?
Dutch Samurai
Active Member
Well that to me tells me that, at this point, there really is no reason to ban her. She wins some, she loses some. What I'd like to see though is two people who have mastered Alpha and another character. Have them play a set of 100 matches as Alpha and 100 as their other characters. If they are at about 50-50 for wins/losses for each set, we can presume that they are about equally skilled. Then have 2 sets of 100 matches where alternately one plays as Alpha and the other plays as his or her other character. If there is a huge disparity between Alpha's wins and losses (say 70-30 to 100-0), then it would be plausable to assume that she has an unfair advantage.
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You provided character unfamiliarity. Shade was a prime example of this in NEC, and a prime example against Eliot in GVN. Not to take anything away from Shade's ability, because he's an awesome player.
Say whatever you want, but Alpha gets that ass beat no matter how powerful she looks on paper. I suppose my defense is invalid, and I can't back Alpha up like I thought I could, and once again I look like an idiot on a forum. I probably bared too much teeth, I didn't realize how much I cared about my character that I enjoy playing.
All this being said, I'm thankful for all the people that voted "no" here on FSD. Let's be serious... Alpha deserves a fair trial.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Not sure why you think you look like an idiot. You say they are unfamiliar with the character; could you go into more detail and explain what is being done by players that is wrong and what is right?
You also keep saying people are giving paper arguments. What are these arguments and why aren't they true in practice? Evidence of that would be helpful.
You also keep saying people are giving paper arguments. What are these arguments and why aren't they true in practice? Evidence of that would be helpful.
Does falling for Alpha's 8T count? I don't know many people that still fall for her long-distance offensive holds, unless of course they are used in methodical ways... especially that 8T which is now best used on an opponents long distant get-up. Shade was more prepared for Alpha after fighting three and proved at the beginning that her strings are predictable and easy to reverse (though I guess "different animations work on different players") and at 11:30 he blocks far too long and has no idea what to do against 8T?
Same with Sonic:
Falls for it again and again! Starting at 5:29. I think this proves that Shade wasn't ready for Alpha because 8T is the oldest trick in the book! 6:32 standing block, for that long, from that distance!? No familiarity. Standing block again at 7:25. Standing block again not even 20 seconds later. And this was BEFORE the patch when Alpha was even MORE "OP." Shade at least knew at the time to apply lots of pressure and how to read her "unpredictable strings." I don't think he was fearing B.U.R.S.T at all.
She's really not the problem you're making her out to be. If she was winning everyone single tournament and everyone was using her (Rikuto says he's going to main her, and I guarantee you it may not work as planned) then I would say whatever. She won one freaking tournament against an opponent that CLEARLY wasn't familiar with Alpha at the time. But look what Shade did to her at this GVN. Is that proof enough?
Awesmic, I already talked to nightpup, he agrees with everything Tenyruga said XD. And I guess he's right, but I don't see what he's saying on paper take place in the games I play. I've played with damned near every good Alpha worth mentioning, and I've seen some crazy awesome shit, and I've seen Alpha get her shit tossed plenty of times. The tier list is VERY accurate in my opinion.
But she's a "money-maker" where is the evidence in that other than NEC when "professionals" were still unfamiliar with her OH? I don't need to speak a language I don't know when Xcal can do it for me. People said he's "new to the game", "unfamiliar" because he used Alpha. Then he turned around beat Shade with Eliot... the allegedly worst character in the game.
And Tenyruga, I agree that you provide evidence and put work into what you write and I don't dismiss you at all, but in the end people that are familiar with her get the pay-off of dominating her.
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Not to mention I do not like the way this "poll" was set-up. A topic title clearly leading to a bias approach of disdain and discomfort that I do no believe has warranted the character a ban if the poll ever meant anything to begin with.
And the whole bitch and cunt thing? Absolutely atrocious and "immature." This is what stemmed me bearing teeth to begin with.
And the whole bitch and cunt thing? Absolutely atrocious and "immature." This is what stemmed me bearing teeth to begin with.
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David Gregg
Well-Known Member
For those in favor of banning, if she's such a godly character than play her yourself and quit bitching. No one's stopping you from using her. 
That's my biggest pet peeve on this site when people are so concerned about banning/nerfing other characters when they should really be focusing on their own mains.
That's my biggest pet peeve on this site when people are so concerned about banning/nerfing other characters when they should really be focusing on their own mains.
You guys don't get it, do you? You can't "just focus" on your mains. You have to not only learn & "focus" on your mains, you have to learn how to fight against all of the characters. People who call for nerfs just want the game to be balanced to where ALL characters can be used & not just a select few. Mainly the competitive players. That's why PL made the topic. No offense to anybody, even myself could be very well in the category of the fact that very few people can give out character suggestions on balance without being biased. That's why the topic was made. You're not seeing the bigger picture here.
RubinRoon
Member
For those in favor of banning, if she's such a godly character than play her yourself and quit bitching. No one's stopping you from using her.
I think that is what people are afraid of. They dont want this this game to turn into Dead or Alpha (1)5(2) Ultimate.
I don't want that to happen either.
David Gregg
Well-Known Member
And you're missing my point. I never said that you didn't have to learn how to fight against each individual character.
DOA 5 (and certainly Ultimate) was and never will be a balanced game. Before you can start complaining about how many tools Alpha-152 has (and let's not even get on the topic of Ayane, Kasumi, and Sarah) look at the number of characters who are rarely (if ever) seen in a tournament to begin with.
If you really wanted her banned then have everyone play as alpha-152 in a tournament. Actions speak greater than words.
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Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
@deathofaninja
Thank you very much. I appreciate what you did by coming into this thread and providing defense for your character even after all the backlash you got the first time. I agree that some people came into this thread and said some very bias and uncalled for things on both sides. That's part of the reason why I was so adamant about you guys coming in here to provide counter strategies and evidence supporting your argument because stuff like that isn't allowed in a debate and I dislike seeing it. Like you said before she should get a fair trial. I unfortunately still think your character needs to be toned down a tad bit but I have confidence that this ban won't last very long considering her changes in 5U and the changes that could be made if more are necessary. I definitely do not support a permanent ban. That said I lied the first time lol. I've said all I needed to say and gotten what I wanted out of this thread. I'm out for real this time.
Thank you very much. I appreciate what you did by coming into this thread and providing defense for your character even after all the backlash you got the first time. I agree that some people came into this thread and said some very bias and uncalled for things on both sides. That's part of the reason why I was so adamant about you guys coming in here to provide counter strategies and evidence supporting your argument because stuff like that isn't allowed in a debate and I dislike seeing it. Like you said before she should get a fair trial. I unfortunately still think your character needs to be toned down a tad bit but I have confidence that this ban won't last very long considering her changes in 5U and the changes that could be made if more are necessary. I definitely do not support a permanent ban. That said I lied the first time lol. I've said all I needed to say and gotten what I wanted out of this thread. I'm out for real this time.
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