DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

Heikou

Active Member
Standard Donor
Could someone explain why the matchup Kokoro - Hayabusa is 6-4 in Kokoro's favor? Also, I think Hayabusa is placed way too low on this tier list overall.
Kokoro can pretty much smother him with offensive pressure up close until he somehow creates a significant amount of space (which is a pretty big advantage since pre-round works the way it does), and even at mid / long range, she has numerous tools with great hitboxes. She pretty much just forces the Hayabusa player to make more reads than whoever's playing her has to, and gets similar reward to much less risk on most of those reads as well. I can explain it in more detail later if anyone cares to read it.
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
Kokoro can pretty much smother him with offensive pressure up close until he somehow creates a significant amount of space (which is a pretty big advantage since pre-round works the way it does), and even at mid / long range, she has numerous tools with great hitboxes. She pretty much just forces the Hayabusa player to make more reads than whoever's playing her has to, and gets similar reward to much less risk on most of those reads as well. I can explain it in more detail later if anyone cares to read it.
I'd appreciate that. I still need some examples though. What exactly is Kokoro's offensive pressure? What are Kokoro's best ranged tools (I know 214P is excellent but other than that I don't know)? How much reward does Kokoro get exactly from a successful read? etc.
 

Tempest

Well-Known Member
I'd appreciate that. I still need some examples though. What exactly is Kokoro's offensive pressure? What are Kokoro's best ranged tools (I know 214P is excellent but other than that I don't know)? How much reward does Kokoro get exactly from a successful read? etc.
Heikou is better than me at explaining this, but I've been on the receiving end of it for long enough to help.

Kokoro's strengths are safety, high stun launch damage with high knock back that lets her do lots of environmental damage, and several tools that let her attack from disadvantage. Kokoro has tools like 66P, 3k4K, and 6ppp that all leave her her at a frame disadvantage where you can't throw her guaranteed. From there she can make a read on a high to regain momentum, or just sit there and block after a fuzzy guard, against a grappler like Hayabusa she's very obnoxious because you have to be on point to throw punish her properly. You really have to watch out for 33P+K since that will crush highs and launch you for a missed throw attempt for high counter.

Reward wise, Kokoro gets more damage playing the stun game than Hayabusa, and chances are due to her speed and neutral options she's going to get more opportunities to do so. You have to be very on point with sidestep reads to shut her down, and those can be difficult to make when she has so many options.
 

J.D.E.

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
A lot of the matches that I've played didn't really change. It's more of some characters got some minor changes opposed to groundbreaking changes.
 

J.D.E.

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Lol, Marie Rose is only really good because of how bullshit Minuet is. Without it she'd be pretty average.

As for Tier discussion being only
Limited to "Top players", that would be incredibly exclusionary leading to a lack of overall discussion since most "Top players" don't contribute to that sort of thing anyway.
To be fair, a lot of threads that are really good discussions end up being repetitive or completely derailed also. Either that, or it leads to 1 side get emotionally butt hurt opposed to one actually being wrong & then coming to grips with a concise match up number, because they don't want to be wrong.
 

UncleKitchener

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Then we're never getting anywhere with that attitude. No one really cares how much of an ego someone has if they can't explain factual MU data.

http://www.freestepdodge.com/thread...th-discussion-thread.3817/page-71#post-226121
http://www.freestepdodge.com/thread...th-discussion-thread.3817/page-67#post-223247

I know walls of text are the most boring things next to watching paint dry, but there you go. I don't know, would people care to sit down and write factual things while knowing both characters to the point of knowing which tools beat which.
 

Heikou

Active Member
Standard Donor
I'd appreciate that. I still need some examples though. What exactly is Kokoro's offensive pressure? What are Kokoro's best ranged tools (I know 214P is excellent but other than that I don't know)? How much reward does Kokoro get exactly from a successful read? etc.
Alright, I'll try to dig in as well as I can.

Hayabusa deals more damage than Kokoro does; normally by a difference of 10 ~ 20 points per juggle, and deals significantly more throw damage / has faster throws than Kokoro does. He also has more guaranteed damage setups than Kokoro does. Although Kokoro's no slouch with environmental damage herself, Hayabusa also has her beat in that regard. These are the only places I can think of where Hayabusa beats Kokoro.

I believe Kokoro gets similar damage to Hayabusa when the opponent is launched at level 1 critical stun (but I don't have the game on hand to check right now). She has numerous moves which, on block, force the opponent into a situation where the opponent must guess between heichu throw, and a followup that either stuns, or knocks down for oki. She can also sacrifice some damage when juggling an opponent for good oki setups. Although every character has ways to do this, I haven't really seen any Hayabusa player demonstrate a method as effective as Kokoro already has. She also counters him very well at just about every range since her hitboxes just knock him out of stuff, and she's faster.

These moves in specific have dumb hitboxes that beat out stuff they shouldn't beat out (from shortest range to longest, or close to it)
3K, 236P+K, 66P, 8P, SS P, 214P, 46P. These moves are all pretty low risk on top of having dumb hitboxes. The moves Hayabusa can use that will stuff these at their optimal / near-optimal range are much riskier for him to use than any of these are for Kokoro to use; the vast majority of Hayabusa's good spacing tools are throw punishable now.

Hayabusa also doesn't have any amazing sidestep attacks (although SS K can be scary), or a special sidestep. This means than once Kokoro's offence train gets chuggin', Hayabusa has to make a good read (especially since she doesn't have any important moves that can be held on reaction; 33P and the like aren't vital to playing her). Being forced to make a read opens him up to a lot of the same horrible things as it does with other characters.

I don't know if that really explains it thoroughly enough or not, but it's the most I can think of without having the game at hand. Feel free to ask questions.
 

jjinkou2

Well-Known Member
Regarding Kokoro/Hayabusa MU, it's interesting also to have a point of view from Busa's players. Brute wrote something about this long time ago. Although i'm not sure he didn't change his mind by now.
Indeed that helped me to play better against busa. Busa's players could find also tools to upgrade their defense:

http://www.freestepdodge.com/thread...th-discussion-thread.3817/page-21#post-171406
Kokoro 4-6
I’m not sure what I can say here that won’t make all the Kokoro people flip their feces and riot in the streets trying to explain why everything Kokoro has can be shut down oh-so-easily. Kokoro has very high pressure and dealing with it is not as simple as “sidestep everything.” Kokoro absolutely dominates the neutral game. And by “dominates,” I mean really, really dominates. She’s got the speed advantage. She’s got the poke advantage. Keeping up-to-speed with Kokoro as Ryu is like swatting bullets with a sword. Up close she applies pressure. She applies mix-ups. She applies guard breaks. She applies resets. She applies sabakis and some nasty CB junk. And if at any point you mess up she nails your nuts to the wall. “Oh, well at least Ryu has his long-range option…” NOPE! Kokoro covers incredible distance very quickly and is an absolute nightmare in intercepting and negating Ryu’s ranged approaches. If this were based on offense merit alone, Kokoro would basically be eating free Ryus for breakfast. However, lucky for Hayabusa, he’s got defense. His parry works notably well against Kokoro since her attacks cover so much distance. This lets him jump up behind her at a distance where if she attacks, she may whiff, and he gets to punish. Furthermore, Kokoro likes her some punches. Punchy-punch-punch; all through the day. Izuna likes… er, I mean… Ryu likes Izunas. Hooah-hooah-toooaaah! All through the day. Ryu also weighs more than she does, which boosts his bound potential in particular. edit: This match feels really dumb and it is. Ryu is put on defense and told to "hold right," when in reality holding Ryu's options and strings is easier than holding Kokoro's. So you may get more damage from Ryu, but it's not accurately compensating for the effort he has to put in. It's just a struggle for Ryu through-and-through. Kokoro takes it here.


Regarding MU, i agree with crext : "... tier lists isn't 100% accurate, but entertaining to read and "think about".
 
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Lulu

Well-Known Member
Yeah I'm very intimate with Kokoro's reach and speed.... from the receiving end ofcourse. That space between you and her belongs to her just as much as it belongs to you... if not more so.
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Regarding Kokoro/Hayabusa MU, it's interesting also to have a point of view from Busa's players. Brute wrote something about this long time ago. Although i'm not sure he didn't change his mind by now.
Well, I was technically talking about a different game.

A lot people thought Busa was nerfed too much from their initial impressions. It would be nice for a Busa player to factually explain why this may still be the case because Busa is still used and is still pretty popular.
Obviously people pick characters based on who's strong. That's why everyone is Gen Fu.

Hayabusa's popularity has nothing to do with the fact that he's the protagonist of Ninja Gaiden.
 

UncleKitchener

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Obviously people pick characters based on who's strong. That's why everyone is Gen Fu.

Hayabusa's popularity has nothing to do with the fact that he's the protagonist of Ninja Gaiden.

Yes, but it he was really bad, then usage of the character would've dropped drastically even if most people are fanboys.
 

J.D.E.

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
I don't have a match number for Kasumi & Raidou, but it's worth mentioning that within the match up:
  • If Kasumi parries his 4PK & his fireball guard break, she gets a guaranteed combo (if she gets a read on it). She also parries his fireball that knocks back out in range
  • Raidou has an easy time juggling her for good amounts of damage once he lands a hit
  • Kasumi's juggles vs Super Heavys' do not change all that much like they used to. In 5U & LR, she gets 66K~K > 66K~K PP6PK (88 pts CH) & 66K~K > 66K~K PP6P6K (Wall combo, 96 pts) which are universal from 236T along with 66K~K > 7K > 6~KK (73 pts CH). Wall slam combos 3PK/4K/PPPK are universal. She would still use 33P > 2P. into 4PKK (with a hit to extend it) though. Her BNBS are also still universal.
  • Kasumi doesn't want to give him time think or to land some sort of CH
  • Raidou wants to keep Kasumi at a bit of distance so that he can fight according to how she approaches him; If she is in his face, then he wants to play patient & make a good read.
These are some of the notes that I took down a while back while playing Silent Legend's Nereus's & Hubbs's Raidou. I need to analyze it more & then play people who use him.
 
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Crext

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
Well, I wouldn't mind if people manage to throw out some MU numbers, especially for the newer characters. Even if they are not implemented right away, they would probably be looked over when the time comes.
 

Black Dragon

Active Member
So I was very disappointed when Ryu's 214P went from +2 to -5 on block. Apart from his feint rolls, he's been nerfed overall...

... Am I right?

What advantages has he got left apart of throw damage?
 

Lulu

Well-Known Member
So I was very disappointed when Ryu's 214P went from +2 to -5 on block. Apart from his feint rolls, he's been nerfed overall...

... Am I right?

What advantages has he got left apart of throw damage?

Well at negative 5 only 4 characters are able to Neutral Throw Punish that.... his fellow grapling buddies, Tina, Bass, Lisa and Hayabusa himself. Thats not so bad right ? ;)
 

KING JAIMY

Well-Known Member
What advantages has he got left apart of throw damage?
- i4 and i6 throws
- Expert Holds
- Outstanding environmental game
- Guaranteed CB
- Good amount of high crushes
- Natural combos such as 6KK and the second and third punch of 3PPP
- Limbo stun (Ongyoin PP) with guaranteed follow-ups
- Reset throw (46T) with guaranteed follow-ups on Hi-Counter
- Pretty decent wall damage
- Ongyoin Parry
- Izunas
- GB's which leaves him at advantage (66K, Ongyoin PPfullchargeP, 4P+K)
 

Brute

Well-Known Member
Standard Donor
- Ongyoin Parry
Pffffft

- GB's which leaves him at advantage (66K, Ongyoin PPfullchargeP, 4P+K)
I'll give you a cookie if you land Ongyoin PPP on guard at full charge.

66K is +4 with a mandatory ongyoin transition, which makes your high i12, mid i15 (super unsafe) and low i99999.
So, if your opponent doesn't know how to fuzzy, you get the lovely mixup of headbutt or throw. That's a 50/50 on his best neutral pressure move. For reference, that's about the pressure capacity that everyone else gets at -6, except that their options don't involve the same derp risk factor as Ryu is faced with here.
 
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