DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Crext
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Which I also don't have.
It connects after 6K and I don't believe it can be staggered after 6P+K, either.
Note how his wide array of lift stun hit levels have synergy with this move.
Ryu plays it better than Leon. His highs are deeper and his mid Ks are deeper.
Zero Beat
Well-Known Member
This is just my personal take on the new moves/adjustments for Phase.
Phase's 6P still loses to Kasumi, Jann Lee, Zack, and Gen Fu's 6Ps due to them doing 1 more damage. The pro for Phase is in terms of range - 1.62m for her vs. 1.37 for Kasumi, 1.38 for Jann, and 1.4 for Zack, 1.31 for Gen Fu. Nyo beats them all with her P+K doing 20 though. Not sure what the practical application of that is though.
66K being teleport on block is welcome as it gives her another way to get in and the Tenfu cancel can work anytime before the second strike connects (giving you anywhere from +4 to -5 on the Tenfu itself before following up with P (12 frames), K (23 frames), or T (15 frames)), though the follow-up strikes can be sidestepped and the throw can be avoided via free step, duck, or sidestep right (2H+P+K if your character is on the left, 8H+P+K if your character is on the right (need to test that with the right side to a wall still).
46T leaves her at +10, so that seems like a decent tool to me, and unless I'm SEing wrong, I don't think you can SE that. Can't follow up with P at all since it will whiff and by the time you get to the second P or K, you're already hit, whether 4K and 7K work depends on the opponent (for example, 4K and 7K both work against Bayman and Leon, 4K works against Christie and Rig but not 7K, neither works against Phase, Kasumi or Kokoro, so it seems to depend on character size and stance) or if the opponent tries to strike right after it (4K will be dodged by lows though), but otherwise everything that's equal to or under whatever opponent's jab speed +10 is should be viable, especially her 19 frames or less tracking strikes like 1P, H+K and P+K, then add 6H+K against characters with a 10 frame or slower jab.
This has made her better overall, but not enough to change any of her MUs, in my opinion.
Phase's 6P still loses to Kasumi, Jann Lee, Zack, and Gen Fu's 6Ps due to them doing 1 more damage. The pro for Phase is in terms of range - 1.62m for her vs. 1.37 for Kasumi, 1.38 for Jann, and 1.4 for Zack, 1.31 for Gen Fu. Nyo beats them all with her P+K doing 20 though. Not sure what the practical application of that is though.
66K being teleport on block is welcome as it gives her another way to get in and the Tenfu cancel can work anytime before the second strike connects (giving you anywhere from +4 to -5 on the Tenfu itself before following up with P (12 frames), K (23 frames), or T (15 frames)), though the follow-up strikes can be sidestepped and the throw can be avoided via free step, duck, or sidestep right (2H+P+K if your character is on the left, 8H+P+K if your character is on the right (need to test that with the right side to a wall still).
46T leaves her at +10, so that seems like a decent tool to me, and unless I'm SEing wrong, I don't think you can SE that. Can't follow up with P at all since it will whiff and by the time you get to the second P or K, you're already hit, whether 4K and 7K work depends on the opponent (for example, 4K and 7K both work against Bayman and Leon, 4K works against Christie and Rig but not 7K, neither works against Phase, Kasumi or Kokoro, so it seems to depend on character size and stance) or if the opponent tries to strike right after it (4K will be dodged by lows though), but otherwise everything that's equal to or under whatever opponent's jab speed +10 is should be viable, especially her 19 frames or less tracking strikes like 1P, H+K and P+K, then add 6H+K against characters with a 10 frame or slower jab.
This has made her better overall, but not enough to change any of her MUs, in my opinion.
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Tempest
Well-Known Member
It will lose to other 11 frame mids, but it's hitbox won't get crushed by moves like Leifang's 3H+K where Kasumi's would.
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
I don't understand how that's relevant. Leon's mid punches are deeper? I don't use highs in stun.
Thinking about it, I will agree with busa playing the stun game better than Raidou. He doesn't quite match up on the hold punishment, and doesn't have any shortcuts to cb. Only guarantee is limbo to 33k.
He isn't better than Leon; if anything they're close to even. They punish the hold side of the 50/50 similarly. I'm not sure who has more guarantees.
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No. They both have easy access to a fast, mid P lift stun. Their i13 mids are both negative on normal hit, deep stuns on CH, and have follow-ups.
More or less, their mid stuns are tied.
I'm not comparing overall character validity of anyone against Leon. Simply stun capacity between Leon and Ryu, in which Ryu is more versatile and capable within the category.
You're inclined to be mistaken. Ryu's stun game is stronger.
Ryu has better high pokes and mid K pokes, even outside the stun game. His mid K launches/bounds are also more reliable and powerful. Ryu's holds are also stronger.
Leon is safer, usually nets higher damage, has better lows, OHs, and a more reliable oki.
It's an even MU.
Zero Beat
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I've also edited my post with more detail about her other stuff. I still need to test her 6P against characters that also have a 17 damage i11 6P, such as Christie.
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I just said the opposite. I'm beginning to realize you don't actually read what I write.
Okay. Your self-imposed limitations shouldn't affect the MU, though. He has lots of good lows, whether you choose to use them or not is irrelevant.
Everything seems utterly and completely wrong to you.
Jefffcore
Well-Known Member
I'm clearly dyslexic.
It's not a limitation I'm imposing on myself, it's a matter of need.
I don't understand this need for quantity. You only NEED one high poke. Jab.
Hayabusa has a faster jab, but Leon has better jab strings. What high poke could he have better than Leon's jab, aside from his own?
It's not a limitation I'm imposing on myself, it's a matter of need.
I don't understand this need for quantity. You only NEED one high poke. Jab.
Hayabusa has a faster jab, but Leon has better jab strings. What high poke could he have better than Leon's jab, aside from his own?
SilverForte
Well-Known Member
Hey uh, I just want to point out Raidou has a 13f 2p that's +1 on nh, that's pretty important.
Raidou has the best 2P for a heavy character, that already puts him in a good position in terms of defense. His holds do good damage too. His only major issue in that department is movement.
I find that her not having parries compared to Kasumi is not a major factor considering she has a better defense due to her mid weight.
Her throw damage being less than Kasumi makes sense considering that Kasumi is already paying the price with being as unsafe as she is and there's more holding involved against Christie.
I think Christie is as unsafe as Kasumi, except that she's harder to punish.
However, both should die in a fire.
With the exception of the main offenders in her move list and the fact that some of her moves have too little recovery for punishment, requiring mashing of a throw punish, most of the problems with MUs against her are just having to deal with her buttons and choosing the right time to interrupt. It comes with a lot of experience.
I find that her not having parries compared to Kasumi is not a major factor considering she has a better defense due to her mid weight.
Her throw damage being less than Kasumi makes sense considering that Kasumi is already paying the price with being as unsafe as she is and there's more holding involved against Christie.
I think Christie is as unsafe as Kasumi, except that she's harder to punish.
However, both should die in a fire.
So... are the tier-list measured by the tools, stuns, movesets, mobility?
Because honestly for me in a game like DOA where literally anything could happen, I can't really build a tier list.
Also, some of the tier lists I see... are pretty biased and/or go by who plays [Insert character name here] exceedingly well...
I bid you all ado~...
Because honestly for me in a game like DOA where literally anything could happen, I can't really build a tier list.
Also, some of the tier lists I see... are pretty biased and/or go by who plays [Insert character name here] exceedingly well...
I bid you all ado~...
Lulu
Well-Known Member
I would also like to know The Tier List Criteria and how it all comes together.
Usually I'l just assume the fast and safe characters will be on top.
Tier Lists are generally based on the average of a character's MU's, which are generally determined by measuring overall tools against each other. The faster and/or safer characters are not necessarily near the top. Someone fast like Phase-4 (and Alpha-152 sometimes but she's questionable) is generally considered lower tier and someone slower like Rachel is considered higher tier. Pai has the best balance between speed and safety and I think she's mid tier at best.
