DOA5U The Official Tier List with Discussion Thread

[QueenJakheiho]

Had Eliot any guaranteed combos compare to Ein? Ein had tons of bounds stun and guaranteed combos they make on counter hit very solid damage, his spacing and range game is very good also.
8p 8k 66kkk (63 damage on neutral hit)
8p 66kkk(62 damage on counter hit)
4ppp (4pp tracks but they high so not very useful against her stance) pp6pk(77 damage on counter hit)
KK 66kkk (90 damage on counter hit)
6p 8p 66kkk (79 damage on counter hit)
6p 8k pp6pk (79 damage on counter hit)
Ein dont need to play the stun game besides from the most of the roster.
And same as Hitomi, both pretty similar have good tracking tools
pp2kk
66p2k
h+k2h+k
2h+k
4p2kp

And wow he had with 7p charge a i30 +13 guard break not bad.

And now is Ein that bad?

 

[Crext]

Ein really is not that solid in my opinion. I tried to main him early on, as I did main him back in the day, and truth be told he has been turned into more of a ranged only type of character. Probably the best spacing in the game, but at the cost of having a very hard time up close.

In regards to Christie:
His fastest mid is 13 frames, and his jab is 10. He also tends to 2p (13 frames low) and get +1 on hit, and with this he usually follow up with 3p and push any 12 frame mid out because he gets superior damage (and with it critical hit stun). Problem now is if he ever gets close to Christie she knows he would have to follow up with either jab, throw or JAK crushers (or more low punches that does very little damage) as she takes away this 13 frame option. the odds is then in Christie's favor as I view it, as her 6p 11 frame mid beats everything but jab, and still makes it possible for her to block if she gets hit by jab. Her 9 frame jab high will also be out "everything" but his jab, for some safety back to block (until he learns to free cancel throws). Her JAK will beat out everything but some of Ein's slower moves, so it would be brave for him to try and counter it. Throw would beat Christie holding high. Another option is OH low throw, if Christie try and low hold (as you start understanding the pattern) or the JAK, But this would of course be beaten by 6p or p-chains as well. He also have 12 frame highs that stuns on counter hit, but these would just fall into the pattern of jabs and at +1 (11 frames) they too will be beaten out both by her 9 frame jabs and her 11 frame mid (as it does more damage). The loops continue, but as I view it the odds are always in Christies favor by 66% or better. Ein kinda has to lure her, (and she can lure back as well,) but all in all I don't think Ein's range game makes up for her next to dominant close game. She can run in throw, run in block, use 214p or JAK backdash k, forwardroll, and so on. Especially block approaches tends to be useful as Ein gets at an disadvantage and usually has no follow ups, or that 6p or p beats any follow up. Also you'd almost always get outside throw range if you time it right, and then the close game is secured if you got your timings right as he got nothing to avoid it, and will probably reply with low punches (which brings you back to the start of this thread).

On a different note I think I'll try and make some discussion on the other match-ups by making some threads for them and see if I can lure some peeps into voicing their opinions.

 

[J.D.E.]

Had Eliot any guaranteed combos compare to Ein? Ein had tons of bounds stun and guaranteed combos they make on counter hit very solid damage, his spacing and range game is very good also.
8p 8k 66kkk (63 damage on neutral hit)
8p 66kkk(62 damage on counter hit)
4ppp (4pp tracks but they high so not very useful against her stance) pp6pk(77 damage on counter hit)
KK 66kkk (90 damage on counter hit)
6p 8p 66kkk (79 damage on counter hit)
6p 8k pp6pk (79 damage on counter hit)
Ein dont need to play the stun game besides from the most of the roster.
And same as Hitomi, both pretty similar have good tracking tools
pp2kk
66p2k
h+k2h+k
2h+k
4p2kp

And wow he had with 7p charge a i30 +13 guard break not bad.

And now is Ein that bad?

I don't think it's the matter of his moves not being good tools or whatnot. It's the matter of how he matches up with the rest of the characters in general that people are trying to point out.

 

[Tenryuga]

Stuff.

Ein doesn't have guaranteed damage in stun. Everything you just mentioned is holdable. Basically you are trying to tell me Ein is better than Eliot because he does more damage at a fast rate and has a better range and spacing game? That's a pretty harsh downplayment of Eliot. Anyway I'm going to explain how the Ein - Christie match-up goes for everyone. This is a match-up in Christie's favor. Let's talk about close range.

In close range Christie shits all over Ein because Ein has NO FAST MID TRACKING in strings or outside of them. Don't say anything to me about PP6P2K and 66P2K because a competent Christie or just a smart player in general has enough sense to not use JAK if they block a PP6P / 66P. Best to just try to interrupt him or block the mixup between PP6PP, PP6PK and PP6P2K because all of those options allow you to throw him even if PP6PK isn't a guaranteed punish. What Christie should be doing is using JAK almost everytime Ein throws PP at you because he has NO TRACKING after PP. PP6P gets DUCKED AND EVADED by JAK. PP2K gets evaded by JAK and PP2KK is too slow to hit you before you hit me with a JAK followup. PPP lol. Why would anybody use PPP raw? It's linear and unsafe.

All I have to respond to you in close range if you are JAKing off is H+K, 2H+K and the low offensive hold all of which require very precise reads and come with a high degree of risk. I can't use 4P or throws to track because those get ducked by JAK and Christie has no reason to use her regular sidestep over it. JAK is just one thing Christie has that is a headache for Ein in close range. Her speed is also a headache because Ein has NO FAST TRACKING 1P to crush her free cancel attempts and highs as well as stop JAK. If Ein had a 1P this match-up would be more manageable for him in close range. Since he doesn't he has to rely on a linear 2P since 2H+K is too slow to be using on defense consistently.

At range things are better for Ein because he can actually keep Christie and JAK in check with competent usage 2H+K and H+K. Some Christie's like to JAK dance all over the place at range which isn't an effective tactic against Ein because he can attempt to whiff punish you when you are recovering in between JAK attempts or just simply run up to you and use 2H+K / H+K and laugh at the nonsense Christie is trying to pull. His standard whiff punishers 46P and 236P(has a mediocre hitbox) don't have much use here due to the risk of getting JAKed but are still viable when Christie gets impatient at range and does something stupid.

And this comparing match ups makes a plausible tierlist at the end?

Yes. That is how a tierlist is made. People at the bottom of the tierlist have shitty match-ups against the cast while those at the top rape the rest of the cast.

 

[Brute]

And this comparing match ups makes a plausible tierlist at the end?

Yup. That's pretty much what a Tier List is, lolz

Unless there's some insane sleeper tech Ein's hiding away that I'm not aware of, ain't no way the Ein v Christie match-up is 5-5.

 

[Allan Paris]

Again, posts have been removed. It is quite simple, keep the discussion on the match ups or don't post here. There are a couple ways to keep up bickering here on fsd via pm or the chat box. I have no problem with removing posts/people so warnings will be issued to the individuals that I see that can't follow the simple rule of this discussion.

Carry on.

 

[Brute]

Why is George RR Martin in the background?

Anyway, I'm kinda curious what Marie Rose's Match-ups will turn out like. With a mid-crushing stance and SS stance. Can't imagine she'll have many unfavorable ones.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Why are we discussing Marie Rose in this thread, exactly? She is currently irrelevant.

This is supposed to be about the tier list. And holy fuck. Why are there seven tiers?

 

[Crext]

The tier list on page 1 has Gen Fu in B Tier, lol

I wouldn't sweat it.

Well according to the tier list on page 1, she's only sitting 1 above the bottom which would place her as one of the worst =\

If you have contributions towards the list, feel free to share.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

I'm not going to suggest complete MU lists on characters I don't consider myself an expert on.

I'd be interested in seeing what you have to say about some of Leon's MUs. Maybe it would get other people to do so as well. God knows Leon won't be getting a lot of discussion out of the blue in here.

It gets too messy past five tiers.

Having more than five tiers is fine if the game is bad enough to warrant it, like Super Smash Bros. Brawl, for example (which currently has eleven tiers). It doesn't seem as though DOA5U's balance is quite bad enough to warrant seven tiers though.

 

[Brute]

I'd be interested in seeing what you have to say about some of Leon's MUs. Maybe it would get other people to do so as well. God knows Leon won't be getting a lot of discussion out of the blue in here.

Any in particular? While he is my back-up, I don't have the kind of experience with him that I do with Ryu, so a lot of the less-played characters than my Leon MU experience is limited.

 

[Forlorn Penguin]

Any in particular? While he is my back-up, I don't have the kind of experience with him that I do with Ryu, so a lot of the less-played characters than my Leon MU experience is limited.

No one in particular. I'd just like to see some Leon MU opinions from people who play him.

 

[Argentus]

No one in particular. I'd just like to see some Leon MU opinions from people who play him.

While I'm no Fork, I do main Leon, and I gotta say...I think Lisa, Ayane and Kasumi give him the hardest time. They seem to just be able to poke him way too well. The ninjas are obviously just a speed advantage, plus almost every poke they do leading to a juggle. Lisa is just a matter of range and maneuverability. She seems to go through almost all of my leon's offense. And I mean just flat out PASS THROUGH IT.

Hayate's a chump, but Ryu's teleport spam is always a nuisance.

Then there's characters like Jann Lee and Helena, where it's just a matter of not letting them get momentum going.

I havent really found any other characters have a real advantage of Leon, so he can wreck all them in seconds pretty easy. Only time he has trouble is just with universal stuff that's not character specific, like juggles, ground attacks, stuns, etc.

I don't really know how i'm supposed to list 'matchups', but there ya go.

 

[Crext]

While I'm no Fork, I do main Leon, and I gotta say...I think Lisa, Ayane and Kasumi give him the hardest time. They seem to just be able to poke him way too well. The ninjas are obviously just a speed advantage, plus almost every poke they do leading to a juggle. Lisa is just a matter of range and maneuverability. She seems to go through almost all of my leon's offense. And I mean just flat out PASS THROUGH IT.

Hayate's a chump, but Ryu's teleport spam is always a nuisance.

Then there's characters like Jann Lee and Helena, where it's just a matter of not letting them get momentum going.

I havent really found any other characters have a real advantage of Leon, so he can wreck all them in seconds pretty easy. Only time he has trouble is just with universal stuff that's not character specific, like juggles, ground attacks, stuns, etc.

I don't really know how i'm supposed to list 'matchups', but there ya go.

I'll interpret it as:

Lisa - 3 (Leon's disadvantage)
Ayane - 3
Kasumi - 3
Hayate - 4
Ryu - 4
Jann Lee - 5
Helena - 5
"All others" - 5 or better.

Does that sound legit?

 

[Brute]

Lisa - 3 (Leon's disadvantage)
Ayane - 3
Kasumi - 3
Hayate - 4
Ryu - 4
Jann Lee - 5
Helena - 5
"All others" - 5 or better.
Does that sound legit?

No. You're implying that Leon v Sarah is 5-5 or better? He has the same issue with her as Bass. She's too fast, too safe, crushes too much and has too much mix-ups. You really are relying on holds. Whatever the MU number is, it's not 5-5. Not even close. It's probably his worst match-up. Leon-Pai has similar stupid shit going on, but Pai isn't quite as dumb as Sarah and with her lower damage output, you get more chances for a reversal. Still, not 5-5. Ditto that for Christie, though at least with Christie theoretically you've got 3T.

Why is Lisa getting a 7-3 advantage on Leon? Her spacing can be difficult to deal with, but I'm not sure that sets it to 7-3. Leon has the better environment utilization and damage output. Is there something I've been missing on this one?

Anyway, I'd say he has favorable MUs against Bass, Akira, Kokoro, Eliot, & Rachel
and that he has unfavorable MUs against Sarah, Pai, Hayate, Momiji, Kasumi, Ayane, Alpha, Rig, & Zack
with the rest being more or less equal.

This is of course all assuming we're not in the Home stage.

 

[AkaShocka]

I'll interpret it as:

Lisa - 3 (Leon's disadvantage)

Whoa whoa... What? Ok. Lisa is awesome, we all know that, but this cant be right. I say it's a 5-5 and if you think it's in Lisa's favor it would be a 6-4 at the most because 7-3 is just crazy. If there's anyone in this game that will come close to making a matchup 7-3 in Leon's disfavor it would be Sarah because she defies all physics.

 

[Argentus]

No. You're implying that Leon v Sarah is 5-5 or better? He has the same issue with her as Bass. She's too fast, too safe, crushes too much and has too much mix-ups. You really are relying on holds. Whatever the MU number is, it's not 5-5. Not even close. It's probably his worst match-up. Leon-Pai has similar stupid shit going on, but Pai isn't quite as dumb as Sarah and with her lower damage output, you get more chances for a reversal. Still, not 5-5. Ditto that for Christie, though at least with Christie theoretically you've got 3T.

Why is Lisa getting a 7-3 advantage on Leon? Her spacing can be difficult to deal with, but I'm not sure that sets it to 7-3. Leon has the better environment utilization and damage output. Is there something I've been missing on this one?

Anyway, I'd say he has favorable MUs against Bass, Akira, Kokoro, Eliot, & Rachel
and that he has unfavorable MUs against Sarah, Pai, Hayate, Momiji, Kasumi, Ayane, Alpha, Rig, & Zack
with the rest being more or less equal.

This is of course all assuming we're not in the Home stage.

Her spins and flips go right around Leon's attacks most of the time (Ducking under, flipping over, better reach, offensive holds, etc),

On the VF characters...those matchups don't even cross my mind, because I rarely ever go up against them, and when I do, and I just call shenanigans the entire time anyway due to them borderline breaking the mechanics of the game. They are the SFII akuma here.

Why is he unfavorable against Rig? Christie and Hayate aren't too bad. Zack, either. At least from experience going up against them. It's really only VF (Game breakers), Ayane, Kasumi that's I've had definite trouble with. The others are relatively easy to plow through.

 

[DontForkWitMe]

Leon has no 7-3 disfavored or favored match up. all his bad match ups are 6-4 at worst and that only due to ALL the slower grappler characters being automatically at disadvantage to faster mixup heavy characters. He has too many good tools for any character to just completely dominate him if the Leon player is smart and knows the match up of his opponent, that includes the likes of sarah..

Hes also a special case where his match ups can completely change depending on the stage. Even though Home is by far his best, He still gets a big boost in other stages like temple of the dragon, sanctuary,lost world, fuel, and many of the other stages riddled with dangerzones that have breakable objects,explosive walls, cliffs etc. simply due to his ability to control his opponents position after any launcher with his air throw and the huge amount of guaranteed damage he can get from them when thrown into breakable objects.

Don't have the time to do a full breakdown just that pretty much all the A-S Tier characters like alpha, fu, sarah, ayane, christie etc are his bad matchups at 6-4 disfavor and the bottom tier characters like bass, ein, eliot, are 6-4 in his favor while the rest of the cast is pretty much an even 5-5 match up.

 

[Brute]

Argentus is wrong and AkaShocka is right.

edit: Fork pretty much summed it up, though I'm not entirely convinced on Sarah. Otherwise, yeah. That.

 

[Crext]

Ok, as a result from the discussion I'm currently interpreting it as:

Sarah - 3
Ayane - 4
Kasumi - 4
Christie - 4
Pai - 4
Gen Fu - 4
Hayate - 4
Momiji - 4
Alpha - 4
Zack - 4
Bass - 6
Akira - 6
Kokoro - 6
Eliot - 6
Rachel - 6
Ein- 6

Rest - 5

Finished editing. Will be filed unless further discussion indicate otherwise.