Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Kokoro has low attack damage?
The Official Dead or Alive 5 Tier List with Discussion thread
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NightAntilli
Well-Known Member
Uh... The one who wrote that tier list is clueless regarding Kokoro.
- Kokoro is probably the character with the worst lows in the whole game. Her lows basically do nothing, unless your opponent is already stunned. You have to break through someone's defenses another way first, to get to use the lows in an efficient manner.
- Her guard breaks are not that useful. They give a slight advantage, but you can't do anything with it. You're still easily sidestepped, and if you use her main circular attack (which is a high), you're easily crushed, so, after that guard break, she's still forced to guess.
- 6P+K was actually very necessary. Not only is it not OP, it's the only non-grabbing move that actually lets you break through a standing person's defense and get a slight stun, and even then, if you don't take a risk and follow up with the P, you'll easily get SE'd and still have to work again to break through your opponent's defense.
- Her crushing kicks suck. Example? Compare most of the character's 2K as a crush, to Kokoro's 2F+K.
She also definitely has a lot of weaknesses
- No OH
- Easily sidestepped
- Lacks evasion
Lacking evasion and OH at the same time while being easily sidestepped is a huge weakness, because everyone who can outspeed her can use her as a punching bag, and anyone with respectable sidestepping moves will make it very hard to be aggressive, which is exactly what Kokoro needs to break through someone's defenses since that won't happen with one or two strings against a good opponent. You have to force the opponent to lock himself up, so you get the chance to use either heichu or her mid string grabs. Otherwise you'll just be on the defense endlessly, which is a bad position to be in as Kokoro.
I always said she's overrated. I still stand by that statement.
They got Leifang mostly right, however, she definitely does not have a poor mid-range. She has a poor long range. She has more than enough moves to cope at mid range, both offensive and defensive. For close range she has her parries and fast mids, not to mention her crushes. It's the long range that's trouble, since the only moves you really have are 6F+K and 9PP. Maybe 1KP, but that's way too risky since the punch is a high and most people will duck expecting the 1KK.
I also disagree that she's not very good at relying on strikes. She's a well-rounded character that is good at everything except long range, and that includes striking. She's probably more efficient if played more defensively, but her tools allow her to be aggressive too. 3P alone is a move that has so many follow-ups to mix up with, that anyone rarely knows what's coming.
SS K could definitely be a lot better, but it saves me from a lot of situations. I think it's better than SS P... Why? Because SS P is so goddamn slow, that people will hit you out of it a lot of times, unless it's a move with a lot of recovery and no follow-ups.
DR2K
Well-Known Member
Besides grapplers and Jann this it is quite common.
Stop mashing 66p Kokoro players. When mini Chuck norris is running at you we know how to evade it. She also has throws from her strings.
Side step into K is a low that evades and can go into stance.
Kokoro is dumb. Good, but dumb.
FlamingMuffin
Active Member
Her SS K cannot go into Heichu. She can't even do the second kick from it (unless I'm doing it wrong somehow). It's the P ender or nothing. If it hits on NH and you don't finish it you can be low thrown. Fun times.
Yeah, no...
Ayane is definitely NOT low in the tier in this game, at all. Ayane fulfills majority of the above criteria. Whoever made this list obviously didn't break her down well enough, or didn't bother to.
This is what Ayane can do;
- Nets 60+ damage off combos on normal hit.
- Nets 70-80+ damage off combos on counter and hi counter hit.
- All of her holds deal environmental damage, which add higher damage to her holds.
- Nets 60-80+ damage off her advance mid punch hold.
- Nets 70-90+ damage off her advance mid kick hold.
- She has 4 normal hit launchers that easily nets her 50+ damage on normal hit.
- She gets force tech that leaves her +8 to +13 at every one of her launch heights.
- 3H+K gives sitdown into guaranteed launch (BT6P) which gets her 70+ damage or higher on counter hit.
- Her range game is deadly (there's so much detail here, too much to explain in a simple post).
- She has a very strong punishment game, as she is of the few characters capable of punishing whiffed moves through attacks for high guaranteed damage (1.03a 4K is ridiculous for this).
- Very strong mixup game (again there is too much detail here to explain in a simple post).
- She excels at high crushes and counter hits.
- She's a very evasive character at a distance (mid range, not full screen).
- She's very fast (10/13/12 respectively).
- She has sitdown stun combos BOTH midscreen and by a wall (even more damaging by a wall or object).
- Her wall game is very good, one guess nets her 60-80+ from normal to counter hit.
- She has good match ups across the board.
- Both 64T and 64H nets her high guaranteed damage AND force tech (if she chooses to force tech).
- 4P is still a move that launches on counter and hi counter hit.
- She's not easily sidesteppable like most of the cast (seriously, this is a character that laughs at sidestep attempts and makes you pay for it).
The only thing she doesn't have on that "criteria" is a strong low game. But everything she's capable of, makes up for it. Plus, when hit by her 2P, opponents are going to press buttons regardless. Which is something she has control over because she's making them do what she wants, which is getting out of their comfort zone.
Murakame
Active Member
The list should lose all credibility the moment you see Hayate at S, Zack above Ayane; Kokoro and Eliot, the most linear characters in the game at S; and the top 3 not being Lei, Gen or Lee and Sarah.
...I mean come on. Kokoro does low damage? Hayate has a great low game? LOL!
...I mean come on. Kokoro does low damage? Hayate has a great low game? LOL!
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
That tier list is all kinds of messed up, Reikou.
Your criteria is also flawed because you left key factors as well as some aspects that vary character to character (unholdable stun value, tracking, and wake up game/other). If you need an explanation to these than I'll be glad to give it.
There is no way in hell that Ayane or Ryu are THAT low on the tier list. Hayate is no where near that S+ tier, nor is Eliot. It looks like you just literally listened to what some people said then tossed other characters wherever.
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Hayate
B+ (or A) is a bit more realistic.
[Edit] Skimmed over the fact that you didn't make the tier list. Sorry.
That tier list is all kinds of messed up, Reikou.
Your criteria is also flawed because you left key factors as well as some aspects that vary character to character (unholdable stun value, tracking, and wake up game/other). If you need an explanation to these than I'll be glad to give it.
There is no way in hell that Ayane or Ryu are THAT low on the tier list. Hayate is no where near that S+ tier, nor is Eliot. It looks like you just literally listened to what some people said then tossed other characters wherever.
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Hayate
- He has a lot of powerful mid-range attacks. (Powerful... I wouldn't say all that. The stuns are actually pretty easily slow escaped and don't really give much freedom in the first place. Good whiff punishment though. They are pretty slow though)
- High priority/hit detection, and with his mid-air hit detection, he basically will never lose at mid-range. (He can lose at mid range against people who are bent at keeping you out)
- Very easy to attack with, be it during a launch or after a combo. (Hm, not many arguments here. He's basic which is one of his bigger weaknesses)
- He has a lot of crouching attacks/crushes? and thus is also blessed when it comes to defense. (He's up there in this category, because of his 1k and 8p)
- His crushing sit-down stun leading into a guaranteed combo is powerful. His other low-game is also very powerful and can also guard-break. (This shouldn't be one bullet point. His guaranteed combo comes from a double mid punch combo. Regardless the pay off is great. His other SD stuns do not give much except another slightly stronger holdable stun.
On the other hand his low game is weak compared to Helena, JL, Kasumi, and Brad Wong. Try again.
His guard breaks are mirrors of Hitomi's and some of hers are stronger. She can even open up her opponent with 4p+k fully charged. Hayate cannot do that, no matter how long he charges 4p+k. Try again) - While Raijin is of course very powerful, his 7 frame throw compared to other's 12 frame throws is just ridiculous. (The Raijin is high risk for moderate pay off unfortunately. The Izuna Drop is easier and does more damage, on the brightside there is Nakiryu as an option as well.
His 7 frame throw is damn good... but it's one of those things that wasn't necessary. I'd rather have a more solid character than a broken grab. Try again.)
- His tracking moves are ok. Someone like Hitomi or Ayane will triumph him on that. He lacks long strings like Helena so he can't really kill step that way either.
- He's very unsafe.
- His sidestep punch and special side step punch are pretty godlike but that's not enough to carry him against step killers, it just makes linear characters easily fall to him
- He's actually not THAT fast for what it's worth. 6p is good, but his 12 frame mid kick is -31 with know follow ups. Get me JL's 6k then we can talk.
- His wall game is deadly. That's all I'll say.
- His ceiling game is good. I have a combo section with all the options in the Hayate Breakdown Topic on this forum. Take a look. (here)
- What's good about his guard breaks is he has a lot of them. +3 off most of them, +1 off of his 236k, and +7 off of his wind dash guard break.
B+ (or A) is a bit more realistic.
[Edit] Skimmed over the fact that you didn't make the tier list. Sorry.
He didn't make that tier list. He said it was made by Japanese players.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
I just read that a few minutes ago. My B.
synce
Well-Known Member
Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch that tier list was made by an anon Japanese player to spur discussion, it's not a final or agreed upon tier list. A few people did agree that Eliot and Hayate are good though, and I think the whole world can agree that Lei, Jann, and Gen have always been top.
I would certainly like to read their forums. I'm genuinely interested.
link so i can see what they said about Bayman please?
These people are stupid. No joke, no pun. Just a statement that these players are genuinely stupid.
Why do they have so much influence when they haven't a clue what they're talking about?
Oh, because they're the same fucking race as the developers.
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
That may be the truth... which would be unfortunate. Oh well though.
I'll keep hoping for small Hayate buffs.
KidArk
Active Member
Everyone knows gen is god like , whenever anyone puts him in S tier S+++++++ tier none ever complains , but can anyone even give me a good character break down? I mean there's one article with some pretty situational combos , and I highly doubt a few resets eeven if they can net like 50% damage is all it takes to make Gen so good , even if I may say better than jan and lei.Is there any super hidden gen secret I've yet to discover or is it his unbelieveable pressure and damage all it takes to give him his place?8'm only asking here because the gen forums are dead , and no one likes to reply which gives me less and less reason to share tech.
d3v
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but that's like asking Japan to come up with a tier list for Marvel.