Community The Evolution of The Karate Master

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

There doesn't seem to be an absolute answer for Ein's Evolution.

Its like a sick person flipping a coin to decide which placebo to take.

On one side of the Coin, Ein is given new moves and mixups that accommodate his limited moveset, but is still less poweful than other characters like Hitomi and Hayate who's 5 Stats and damage outputs are higher than Ein's.

On the other side of the Coin, Ein's current moveset is buffed to accommodate his current weaknesses and have greater rewards in combos, but will still be predictable and easily countered because of his limited moveset.

Should the Coin land on its own Edge, Ein will have new moves and buffs, but would become exactly like Hitomi and DOA will have another clone character.

Is there really a simple answer to this?

 

[TakedaZX]

@Splendidsafe we talked in the message about this already so I guess I don't need to say much more. Ya'll go ahead and chill.

@Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion I still feel the second option is best with a little bit of the first. Obviously new moves should come but 4PPK/4P2KK, 1P, and maybe... 1K2K should be the only ones.

Splendid, you should read this. I don't think you specifically understand the concept behind tiers. Tiers are rankings decided for characters in respects to each other. Let's say Ayane and Hitomi were in the same tier. Just because they're in the same tier doesn't mean the play exactly the same. Ayane lacks in CQC but gets good damage at all points in the stun game and on top of that, her space control game is quite amazing.

Hitomi excels at mixing up with her multiple moves, strings, and lows. To get damage for her though, she pretty much has to drive threshold to get the better combos. It's like a rotary engine. To get the power, you have to rev up to the higher rpms but in an rx8 for example, even with the lacking low end torque you get a considerably smooth and responsive ride until you get to that high end again.

On that note, even though she's more rushdown mix up oriented, she still can play an interesting spacing game just like Eins.

Same tier. Different styles.

Now with Ein is becomes more complicate but even then it's simpler. What we want to do is shift their focus while still keeping obvious that they were trained under the same master. So their moves are similar but she will focus on the offensive side and he focuses on the passive aggressive defensive style. This style is tougher to play since it relies on your opponent making a mistake.

That being said, they'll be similar but still different. Hitomi can try to play a spacing game, but she'll never have a 14i whiff punish stun or a 13i weak launcher to make a point.

Vice versa, Ein can try aggressive but he won't have the extensive amount of mid to low situations to make the opponent respect him, nor the strings and safety in general. To get that offense going, he'll have to be feeling himself.

This is what were trying to reach with these two characters.

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Then, what about Guard Break Follow-Ups like VF's Jean Kujo? Since Ein doesn't have the mixup potential Hitomi has, then how about Neutral Follow-Up Attack to give him more pressure?

I know this thread isn't meant for talking about styles and techniques, but tweaking Ein isn't a real solution. If anything, it won't fix the main problems with Ein.

-Slow and/or Short Tracking

-Limited Mixups

-Easily Grab Punished from Basic Combos

Ein needs an edge that separates him from the fighters in his tier list

 

[TakedaZX]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Then, what about Guard Break Follow-Ups like VF's Jean Kujo? Since Ein doesn't have the mixup potential Hitomi has, then how about Neutral Follow-Up Attack to give him more pressure?

I know this thread isn't meant for talking about styles and techniques, but tweaking Ein isn't a real solution. If anything, it won't fix the main problems with Ein.

-Slow and/or Short Tracking

-Limited Mixups

-Easily Grab Punished from Basic Combos

Ein needs an edge that separates him from the fighters in his tier list

The Jean Kujo style guard breaks were discussed but fell under offense. Don't get me wrong, they're and excellent idea. Jean and Jim from Tekken are great examples of karate's potential. Balance. Problem is Hitomi is that character. I'm at work tho. Finish later.

 

[Zeo]

Zeo, this is like the 5th time you've said "i'm done" and "going to end it" in the span of a week. If you have a problem with me PM and we'll discuss it there. Both Takeda and Hakkyoku are still trying to honestly discuss in this thread. At this point, you're essentially shit posting with you're passive aggressive responses. So either discuss something new, send me a PM, or leave. Don't need derailment. Thank you.

The irony of this post is astounding.

When I say "I'm going to leave this here" I mean I'm about to make a point or end that point. Not that I'm done posting. I only actually did that with one post, but I decided that I would give you the benefit of the doubt and try to make you understand where I was coming from without coming off like a douche. Still, considering reply I wasted my time.

The only person "shit" posting is you. We created this topic with the sole intention of honest discussion and it's been that until you came in and essentially said "Well it would be great if he got what you asked for but he doesn't need it, he only needs the couple of things I'm about to menton and then he's golden" following a few nonsensical and hypocritical posts. I try to respond to you in a reasonable way despite by disagreement and rather than trying to understand my logic, You write me off as a troll

So, I actually will be done here. And I'll say to you, PM if you have an issue. Causing a disturbance and then asking someone else to leave. All that's led me to believe is that you're a troll. And since it's so annoying hearing me say "I'm done" I'll say this instead. I'm finished with this pointless arguement, if you have something to actually contribute to the topic, be my guest, otherwise, keep it to yourself or be gone.

TO THE REST OF YOU: I apologize for the disturbance and this pointless clutter filling up the topic. Starting this thing I was ready to take on anyone willing to dispute what Ein needs or anything in EOTKM. I simply wanted everyone opposed to understand our logic and why he needs what he needs in LR. But I've realized at this point that's idealistic and unrealistic.

Everyone isn't going to understand or agree on the same thing and I shouldn't waste energy trying to make that a reality, only for those worth the effort. This is about EOTKM and improving Ein and that alone. Now, let's get back on track.

 

[Brute]

1. No mudslinging from anyone. Not calling out anyone in particular, but if I see it, thread gets locked.

2. Budo Lion, you can not post "Hmmmmmm" and then post an entirely new post right after it with what you actually want to say. One time could be an oversight, phone issue, etc. But two times shows that it's deliberately something you're doing and I don't appreciate cleaning up pointless double-posts each time.

 

[Zeo]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

There doesn't seem to be an absolute answer for Ein's Evolution.

Its like a sick person flipping a coin to decide which placebo to take.

On one side of the Coin, Ein is given new moves and mixups that accommodate his limited moveset, but is still less poweful than other characters like Hitomi and Hayate who's 5 Stats and damage outputs are higher than Ein's.

On the other side of the Coin, Ein's current moveset is buffed to accommodate his current weaknesses and have greater rewards in combos, but will still be predictable and easily countered because of his limited moveset.

Should the Coin land on its own Edge, Ein will have new moves and buffs, but would become exactly like Hitomi and DOA will have another clone character.

Is there really a simple answer to this?

Until DOA6 where it's reasonable to expect an overhaul of his moveset, 2 I believe would be the ideal choice. Primarily the 2nd option with just a few elements from the first. His predictability is still there, but with certain elements from EOTKM, it's easier to get that hit playing Ein's offense and he's rewarded more when he's not counters, discouraging holding to a degree. At the same time, honest play and overall yomi is kept in tact. I think that's good enough until DOA6 where we can start really expanding his character (assuming he's there).

-Slow and/or Short Tracking

-Limited Mixups

-Easily Grab Punished from Basic Combos

Ein needs an edge that separates him from the fighters in his tier list

All of these things are touched on in some form in EOTKM. Tracking gets a bit better, mixups don't improve much but he's given light guard break frame advantage for compensation. A few pokes get safety but ultimately he can stay unsafe. With all the frame advantage he'd be potentially getting, safety on top might encourage pressing buttons a bit too much.

 

[TakedaZX]

The Jean Kujo style guard breaks were discussed but fell under offense. Don't get me wrong, they're and excellent idea. Jean and Jim from Tekken are great examples of karate's potential. Balance. Problem is Hitomi is that character. I'm at work tho. Finish later.

@Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion yea I mean Hitomi is that character. I can see the guard break follow ups for Ein in DOA6 or just multiple ways to frame advantage. I'm not concerned with that currently because like Zeo said, a complete overhaul of his move set should be held until 6.

On that note... I'll have Zeo tag the people back to this topic but there's still some incomplete ends that I want to go over.

1. 4k on NH. There's been plenty of ideas thrown towards this but to be fair, the best option I could think of is to leave the the launch. This is the way I see it: in the end, he only gets 45 damage and he's now back and his comfort zone and for that matter, he won't get the free pressure off of the forced tech that would come form the untechable knockdown. So damage and go in other words. Like said, Ein still doesn't get a lot of ways to make the opponent make mistakes, only ways to punish them so this would literally be 46 damage and run.

 

[Splendidsafe]

Splendid, you should read this. I don't think you specifically understand the concept behind tiers. Tiers are rankings decided for characters in respects to each other. Let's say Ayane and Hitomi were in the same tier. Just because they're in the same tier doesn't mean the play exactly the same. Ayane lacks in CQC but gets good damage at all points in the stun game and on top of that, her space control game is quite amazing.-TakedaZX

I understand you're point. I think it'd be better if I ask this. Given that Ein lacks good CQC tools and plays as a primarily keep out/punish character, that through the EOTKM will Ein truly gain the ability to be high mid if not top tier? I'm just curious on where you think he'll end up on LR if TN follows EOTKM without deviation. I know this is rather speculative given future character adjustments, yet i'd like to see where you stand. Better yet, let's say only Ein gets buffs (highly illogical I know). In your opinion, where would this new Ein end up in 5U's tier standings?

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

Sorry @Brute

 

[TakedaZX]

Splendid, you should read this. I don't think you specifically understand the concept behind tiers. Tiers are rankings decided for characters in respects to each other. Let's say Ayane and Hitomi were in the same tier. Just because they're in the same tier doesn't mean the play exactly the same. Ayane lacks in CQC but gets good damage at all points in the stun game and on top of that, her space control game is quite amazing.-TakedaZX

I understand you're point. I think it'd be better if I ask this. Given that Ein lacks good CQC tools and plays as a primarily keep out/punish character, that through the EOTKM will Ein truly gain the ability to be high mid if not top tier? I'm just curious on where you think he'll end up on LR if TN follows EOTKM without deviation. I know this is rather speculative given future character adjustments, yet i'd like to see where you stand. Better yet, let's say only Ein gets buffs (highly illogical I know). In your opinion, where would this new Ein end up in 5U's tier standings?

I think I speak for all three of us when I say that if everything from the EOTKM was added, he'd be high mid.

The list increases his defensive cqc in areas while increasing his damage for the defensive guesses and also gives him block strings so that he can play a less risky game if he's not exactly feeling what the opponent wants to do.

On top of that, his neutral ability increases at range and up close considering 4K becomes a 13i DP, and a well placed 6P+K results in a free way into stun game assuming the opponent makes a mistake.

Then last but not least, his overall damage potential is increased with the ender buffs and the nasty 50/50 between 8K and 8P on the threshold guessing. Similar to Busa, he can set up a double guess set up off of 3P. (3P, 8P/8K, 3P and boom his at max threshold), able to get an un-slow escapable CB.

The only thing he lacks is a way to hit buttons but at that point... which is not something he should be doing anyway. Just like with Ayane: there's only certain buttons you should be pressing. He's also generally still unsafe where it counts and even with the tracking additions, he's not a tracking God. With 1P, he's making reads. On a bad read, his turn is over, on a good read he gets frame advantage but not a guaranteed hit, so it's still a gamble.

In the end it all just depends.

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

I think I speak for all three of us when I say that if everything from the EOTKM was added, he'd be high mid.

The list increases his defensive cqc in areas while increasing his damage for the defensive guesses and also gives him block strings so that he can play a less risky game if he's not exactly feeling what the opponent wants to do.

On top of that, his neutral ability increases at range and up close considering 4K becomes a 13i DP, and a well placed 6P+K results in a free way into stun game assuming the opponent makes a mistake.

Then last but not least, his overall damage potential is increased with the ender buffs and the nasty 50/50 between 8K and 8P on the threshold guessing. Similar to Busa, he can set up a double guess set up off of 3P. (3P, 8P/8K, 3P and boom his at max threshold), able to get an un-slow escapable CB.

The only thing he lacks is a way to hit buttons but at that point... which is not something he should be doing anyway. Just like with Ayane: there's only certain buttons you should be pressing. He's also generally still unsafe where it counts and even with the tracking additions, he's not a tracking God. With 1P, he's making reads. On a bad read, his turn is over, on a good read he gets frame advantage but not a guaranteed hit, so it's still a gamble.

In the end it all just depends.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I think I understand

No guarantees, but just enough pressure and rewards to be a force to be reckoned with.

And you're right @TakedaZX, entirely new moves can wait until DOA6. Since The Last Round is the latest Dead or Alive 5 installment, this is Ein's last chance to get any new moves and buffs to help him at all

 

[TakedaZX]

Yeah exactly. Ein is already some what of a force but he lacked the correct tools to take advantage of that and most of what he was doing, other characters were doing better.

With his stun to launch increased with 8p and 8k, he now has damage and the ender buffs help his damage more.

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Back to business. There's another few aspects to discuss before we completely lockdown the list and leave it be.

1. 4K on NH.

Obviously, with the speed changes on the move, the question of how to go about the NH damage still stands.

In DOA 4 he had the option to dash up and 1k into pressure. This allows him to play a bit more aggressive. Frankly I didn't think this fits.

The other option is to leave the NH launch. I think this would be the best option. The damage would be basically 46 and then he's out, no pressure at all.

In the end this move is sort of functioning like 46P/236P except up close, he doesn't get a close hit reward and at the wall, it's a waste to use this over his other mid kicks unlike the other death fist just mentioned Also there's the factor that 4K recovers terribly slow, so if the opponent does block, unlike the other two moves, he's able to be izuna punished. So there are trade offs.

What do you guys think? I vote the NH launch.

2. 8K variants.

In the case that the double sitdown stuns are consider too much, since they can come from multiple strings, I have a back up plan. Ein lacks a way to get out of pressure or guard. Many characters can respond with strings with extensive mix-ups into guard breaks or even evasive moves. He lacks both for the most part excluding ppp and 2kk which is very tractable.

My idea is to keep his launch for the 8K variants, which is pretty low at stun to launch. The only real consistent combo on mids is 46p/236p which isn't necessarily bad for getting him space but it's just bad damage. 66kkk is too inconsistent.

So essentially what I want to do then is give this move a -4 guard break. There's not a whole lot of save launchers in this game. Some of the only ones are things like Ryu's 33p and Lei's 7k. For Ein, his functions like a defensive poke. If you land the kick, cool you're back in your comfort zone. If it's blocked. It's ok, you're out.

It brings up the utility of this move from a string launcher mix-up to a defensive poke with no damage basically until high threshold. Still can be stepped.

3. 9PK

Still vote +0 on this. He has no mix-up unlike Hayate and the animation is more than tractable. If you're caught by this on block he shouldn't be punished with -5. The risk vs reward is very skewed here.

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

I vote for Hard Knockdown for the 4K. With hard knockdowns, it would be easy to follow up with a 66KKK or a buffered 2 - K or a dash buffered 236P.

As for the Jubei(9PK) since its -5 and +0, I think a Ushiro Mawashi follow-up is fair. Whenever I did the Jubei I always got punished, even when I had landed the Guard Break.

 

[TakedaZX]

I vote for Hard Knockdown for the 4K. With hard knockdowns, it would be easy to follow up with a 66KKK or a buffered 2 - K or a dash buffered 236P

You mean the sitdown bounce I believe. Kinda the effect that Ein gets from 8p or something. We don't want that. Giving him 66kkk for free off of a NH 4K is insane let alone a dash in 236p with the close hit.

A hard knockdown is actually a knockdown that leaves the opponent on the ground for longer and generally the opponent gets no I-frames. Of course in DOA you can tech to avoid it but then you lose your wake up kick and with the hard knockdown, he TAKES away your wake up kick because the 1k forced tech becomes guaranteed. There's other options as well by that one creates the most pressure.

So now with that understanding, look into it again?

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

You mean the sitdown bounce I believe. Kinda the effect that Ein gets from 8p or something. We don't want that. Giving him 66kkk for free off of a NH 4K is insane let alone a dash in 236p with the close hit.

A hard knockdown is actually a knockdown that leaves the opponent on the ground for longer and generally the opponent gets no I-frames. Of course in DOA you can tech to avoid it but then you lose your wake up kick and with the hard knockdown, he TAKES away your wake up kick because the 1k forced tech becomes guaranteed. There's other options as well by that one creates the most pressure.

So now with that understanding, look into it again?

I know what it is and I believe he should be given the Hard Knockdown for the 4K like he had before in DOA4. I see how unfair that can be but Ein kind of needs it, just launching and getting 6KK isn't rewarding enough. Plus, the 4K's original speed was meant to crush and punish, right? So its reasonable that its given back its old property. Unless the Hard Knockdown can be done on CH and HCH. If so, then I think the 4K launching on NH would be fair.

 

[Splendidsafe]

I know what it is and I believe he should be given the Hard Knockdown for the 4K like he had before in DOA4. I see how unfair that can be but Ein kind of needs it, just launching and getting 6KK isn't rewarding enough. Plus, the 4K's original speed was meant to crush and punish, right? So its reasonable that its given back its old property. Unless the Hard Knockdown can be done on CH and HC. If so, then I think the 4K launching on NH would be fair.

• I like this idea. DOA 4's 4K was a serious pressure tool because of it's non-launch properties. Honestly, i'd trade the tracking suggestions in EOTKM for the return of 4K's status. Hakkyoku is also right in saying the hard knockdown property should only be in CH or HC. It would be necessary to compensate for his 50/50 sit-down stuns. I have a problem with the 8K sitdown stun though. If you get a CH or HC off the suggested Hitomi string (4P,P,K) then it'd be even better than CH or HC 2K, 1, 1P. It'd go into a level 2 threshold stun and would pretty much be guranteed.
• Going with the theme of not strengthening his cqc (I disagree however understand the reasoning), he should get 4P into 4K (would be 4PK). Best case scenario: hard knock down mixup. Worst case scenario: launch. Thoughts?
• Also, in terms of 9PK I rarely use or see that being used. I think the K portion could become an unblockable move. Here me out; assuming they buff his 8H+K, people would begin to respect his back-turned game more. And by having an unblockable it would further add to that respect. I also think this would remove the need for a non-backturned 1P or 8K. Thereby giving way for other moves to be created/recycled.
• In addition I think his 9P should not launch and only go into stun/deep stun. Ein could start using his 9P like Jann Lee's 44P4, 44PH. This could become a real nasty tool as well.
• I forgot what I was getting at with my tier point, so please ignore that.

 

[TakedaZX]

Er... Let me put it like this. The only time you'll really get the Nh launch is in these situations.

1. The opponent stops blocking.
2. The opponent uses a move that is -15 or more on block.
3. The opponent whiffs a move and you retaliate with the whiff punish.

It seems out of place as that forced tech. This isn't like Hayate's wind dash K where it's safe on block and an untechable kd which forces them to deal with you. On block? You're dead. Izuna for free. God forbid you try to make a read and get wall thrown.

I think giving him damage then letting him fall back into his comfort zone is the best way to go.

With this move he'll mostly be demanding respect at r1f for those who want to be gutsy. Will he 46p your 12i mid or 4k your 13i mid kick. These are his gtfo me tools.
They usually will hit on CH+ and in stun.

I'm not sure what context you meant "crush" in @Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion but if you mean going under highs... No it didn't. It was just fast. It did work to whiff punish but it was more of a Counter launch for when he was under pressure.

So... I won't drag on about it longer.

@Splendid Safe I'm gunna ve honest with you. A lot of these notations you're typing I can't follow. They don't make sense. What is 2k, 1, 1p. More importantly, what is the 1 by itself...?

With 9pk, the high kick is a back up to the punch but the reality is this... The move is too slow to be viable anyway so it would have to be reworked. I love this launcher though so I'd rather not take it away.

What is 8h+k?

 

[Hakkyoku-Ken:Budo Lion]

Takeda-san, I meant the 4K as a crush because of it range

 

[Splendidsafe]

No problem. I accidentally wrote 8H+K when it's 4H+K. 1 is down back. 1P is his down back punch. And it was 1K,P,6P not the 2K thing I said. Long day at school yesterday my bad lol.

Also the K follow up from 9PK is really slow you're right. However, I think that's the exact reason it should be an unblockable. And I will include the juggle property if it's not used as a beginning hit. Sound better?