Psychological Advantage

[MajesticBlue]

Yomi and aspects of the mind is by far my favorite part of competitive fighting games. There has been lots of discussion of yomi and frame reading the last few days, so I was curious if other players wanted to discuss aspects of the nature. What is hard is, as previously stated, you can't teach it. I hate to say it but I fear it is something nautral. Still, nothing saying we can't try and improve what we have.

One of the topics I would like to cover is pschological advantage. Making something out out of nothing. This has always been something I avoid, it does have it's place though. This is that magical aspect of no longer playing theory fighter and moving into the realm of putting things into practice. Somethings just seem to elicit a specific kind of response. Or even making somebody hesitate when they have no reason to do so. Regardless of frame data.
　
Another interesting thing I think worth a mention is the illusion of yomi. This is something I studied trying to get good at Doa 4 and DoaD. I kind of developed an odd play style after a while. Pretty much I treated every situation like this. Try to find something that beats as many options as possible, then try and find the only true mixup off of it. So every situation I understood was an option select. Pretty much it is putting all of your eggs into the basket and trying to win via really simplistic conditioning. This is kind of like turning yomi into math, and giving yourself the best odds in a situation with option selects. I was playing fighters like they were turn based rpgs. While it can work, it didn't feel very effective at times. This can be another place where frame data fits into yomi.

Are any Doa players in the community known for their math and frame heavy gameplay?

We can go over general mindsets and ways to approach the game. This is the element that seperates the great from the best. If you can approach the game with an effective mindset, you are one step closer to improvement.

 

[Yaguar]

I generally have quite an odd system, rather than a natural skill. I think it is the programmer in my jumping out at every opportunity.

So every move is listed from 0 .. n, where n is the maximum number of possible follow ups to X (X being the initial move in the sequence). Each item in the array of size n has a weight, which is the likely hood for that move given previous actions to be countered. For example early on 6P+K during red Critical Stun has a high weighting, a high likely hood to be countered. As such it will be my final go to.

So what I will intend to do here is try to reduce the weighting held by 6P+K in the eyes of my opponent via grabs/kick launchers.

You're right in saying that your opponent will become "afraid" of an outcome, or more aware of that possibility being used, it is just a deferred reaction to your algorithm at the time. Each time a move is used the risk factor is increased of re-use, in turn its weighting. These base weights are all decided upon by the most expected action of the opponent. As in 95% of people will always try to catch your first Critical Burst. As such a counter is made to catch it giving a grab the lowest weight. You can also back this up further by timing it so that if they stagger/fall out of stun you would catch them as they recover.

So a quick run through would be.
Achieved point of possible Critical Burst: Node A
[0] - 6P+K (Mid-Punch CB) - Weight 0.75
[1] - 6H+K (Mid-Kick Launcher) - Weight - 0.2
[2] - 214T (Grab) - 0.05

So due to our average initial expectations and the risk factor of each skill at this point the lowest weighted option is chosen. As the fear factor of grab increases the weights on the skills will shift. Eventually you should have embedded in your opponent that you wont be using CB at this point, having followed Path I to reach Node A. As such we sort our mental array and make an assumption on what seems most likely that they will probably try to low counter to avoid our grab. As such the risk value of [0] and [1] are the same. More weight is put onto [1] as it doesn't have as high potential follow ups and the resulting move choice is [0] (CB).

In a loooooong and mathy way. I think this is what most people do. Track what they've used, factor in a little randomness or desperation from their opponent (as well as reactive ability) and make the highest success rate choice. All of it is seeded in averages of the previous games, AKA you can get away with 2-3 grabs before some one says "nope, not this ti... fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu!"

 

[TheDragonWarrior]

Majesti I very much like this top. By far imo the interesting topic Ive seen. Im at work atm, but I'd be more than happy to talk this over.

 

[MajesticBlue]

I just thought I would start this topic because I think it is important for new players. When it comes to learning games your approach can change in an instant and you have different results. Of course the correct answer is always do what beats what they are doing. There are a few ways to go about doing that sometimes though. I admit, my thinking easily goes into overthinking. Imo the psychological aspect involved in competitive fighting games is really important. I find it very interesting. Unfortunately it may also be my biggest flaw.


It is kind of like asking people questions like this. What do you focus on when you play? Where does your brain power go? How do you develop and react to yomi situations? How important is being safe? When should you play all your cards? It really goes on forever. Still, maybe it will help newer players understand some of the mental aspects of the game, or even give somebody an idea.

Adaptation is key.

 

[TheDragonWarrior]

You just explained it all to the teeth. I'm just impressed by your take on all of this!

 

[Prince Adon]

I personally love Yomi in fighters too. I love out thinking other players and that's one of the reasons I love doa to be honest. It makes you think more than any other fighter and I feel it can make you feel more rewarded when winning. I don't agree with games like DOA4, but despite what anyone else may think I think DOA5 is the best DOA yet.

 

[MajesticBlue]

Gonna bring this back to life. Maybe some other players can post some good and effective ways to approach the game. If things go well we should have some new players come Doa 5U. Maybe this could be a helpful thread if people share their ideas and tactics in context of yomi and mental advantages. Pavlov in my Doa?

 

[Russian-chiropractic19]

cant go that deep yikes,but has anyone else experianced that "ill do what he wont expect me to do" situation? for instance i got into a fight online and me being the noob i was am,i kept fucking up my advance counter input.kept going for a low kick hold,kept doing high punch hold and my opponent literally tried punching high till he died from counters.its like he kept expecting me to switch tactics.

people expect you to avoid being unpredictable so much that when you do the sane thing over and over it can really mess them up ironically.

 

[Argentus]

Not sure if this is what you mean, but I like doing little things like just punching...ONCE (Maybe twice), then grabbing them as they try to counter what they thought would be a string, doing a ton of damage.

That and I'll sometimes play against/opposite my own playstyle for the first round (Maybe the second as well if needed) so I can catch them completely off guard by switching to my actual playstyle during the final round. As in, doing that so they wouldn't have been able to adapt to/easily read my playstyle because they HADN'T just spent a round or two already facing it. Instead, they'd just spent a round or two adapting to a "false" playstyle and attack pattern. A buffer for my actual attack pattern, I guess.

That, and keeping things simple seems to really work. People always expect complicated combos and juggles, so just simple attack patterns can really throw them off because they are expecting follow ups which leaves them open (like with my first example) Mila's standard...um, I have it mapped to left trigger, but its one of the two button combinations. Her overhead hook. Nobody else seems to use that outside of hitting people on the ground, but I use it to slam incoming opponents TO the ground, and nobody ever seems to see that coming, it's kinda funny.

Only other thing I can think of, is I like to do attack that sends the opponent backwards, because more often than not, it makes them reckless as they try to quickly close the distance again in frustration of being pushed back, making them easier to punish and read.

Of course, this all relies on you NOT being predictable, but being able to predict/guide your opponent's actions.

Again, not sure if this is what you mean, but stuff like that is what "mind games and psychology" mean to me, at least.

 

[Jefffcore]

I think people try to play too many mind games and get them selves into trouble. Just do something till it doesn't work anymore, then change it up till the next thing doesn't work anymore.

 

[Argentus]

I think people try to play too many mind games and get them selves into trouble. Just do something till it doesn't work anymore, then change it up till the next thing doesn't work anymore.

I think it really depends on if the person is better at planning things out, or on the fly strategies.

Yaknow, like people who aren't so good at planning several steps ahead and multitasking are just gonna get themselves into trouble trying to focus entirely on mindgames.

But as for "just do something till it doesn't work anymore, then change it up till the next thing doesn't work" can be abused as well. For example, make the opponent switch to a tactic preferred by you, by shutting down the tactic preferred by them.

 

[Awesmic]

It is kind of like asking people questions like this. What do you focus on when you play?

Playing as hard as I can and winning as often as possible so I can be accepted and liked by everyone.

Where does your brain power go?

I'm left-handed, so I guess the left side of my brain...?

How do you develop and react to yomi situations?

That's for me to know, and you to keep guessing.

How important is being safe?

As important as getting tested before you go knockin' boots.

When should you play all your cards?

I don't play cards in DOA unless it's in DOAX.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Shoryuken/Throw.

 

[Jaguar360]

I think people try to play too many mind games and get them selves into trouble. Just do something till it doesn't work anymore, then change it up till the next thing doesn't work anymore.

Yep, that's definitely my problem. *sigh* I can't help overthinking and playing mind games.

 

[Brute]

Honestly this is always how I look at the game. Better moves are moves that beat out more options weighted with the likelihood of those options being chosen by the opponent and the respective payoff of the move succeeding. Better characters are characters who have more of these types of options.

 

[Jefffcore]

I think it really depends on if the person is better at planning things out, or on the fly strategies.

Yaknow, like people who aren't so good at planning several steps ahead and multitasking are just gonna get themselves into trouble trying to focus entirely on mindgames.

But as for "just do something till it doesn't work anymore, then change it up till the next thing doesn't work" can be abused as well. For example, make the opponent switch to a tactic preferred by you, by shutting down the tactic preferred by them.

I think you're thinking about it too much. The game is random, I like to keep it to a minimum.

 

[David Gregg]

I find that I play best when I don't think about it. DOA is one of those games where I feel like I'm not getting any better yet I'm winning more. I've noticed that I attack more aggressively, know my opponents moves better hence being able to "read them" easier, and in general know which moves I use are going to get me punished.

Like with Eliot I would NEVER use on an opponent. That's asking for an instant counter.