Optimized Mila Combos

shinryu

Active Member
So I've been wanting to post on this for a while but have been looking into the force tech game for Mila and other characters so I didn't get around to it. Feel free to consider this a thought experiment more than trying to be a gospel guide to combos or anything.

Basically, it seems like Mila's game revolves around keeping constant pressure on; while she's a competent striker in this case she almost seems to play more like a grappler. Given this, it seems like the optimal thing she's trying to set up from a stun is either a mount or a force tech situation. She has relative difficulty setting up the latter, so let's focus on the former initially:

Barring walls, her only reliable way to get a mount from a stun is to launch and land p+k, possibly preceded by an additional string. Unfortunately, the launch height required can be prohibitive, she's going to typically need at least three hits to get off a sufficient launch with the exception of 9k, and most of her launchers are relatively easy to struggle out of. However, there's a way to almost ensure a sufficient launch with p+k using 3pp. You should also be able to get a usable launch from her takedown cancel k, but in general you can only set this up after using 4k or possibly pp6k f+p. So, this suggests her shortest optimal combo path looks something like:

Stun (assume 4f+k in general) - 9k - p+k - 2f+p
- 3pp - p+k - 6p - p+k - p+k - 2f+p
-4k takedown cancel k p+k 2f+p

These are probably the shortest paths to a clean p+k and launch for her. As you can see, she can force this with 3pp; the second hit should cause sitdown stun, and while it is possible to block the p+k afterwards on fastest stagger escape it should be all but guaranteed. The followup 6p p+k is a bit difficult to time on lightweights but is quite doable. The opponent also has to decide to hold the second p or not immediately, making it an excellent throw bait, and there's no reason not to switch to 9k or 4k after 3p hits. So you should generally be alternating after stun 3p and 9k, and if using 3p either throwing immediately or immediately using the followup p or 9k. While the damage from these short combos is modest they do insure a mount and either big damage or an advantaged situation on escape.

Force techs are unfortunately a bit harder to make happen. Her only guaranteed options to force tech are 3f+k and 9p and neither are exactly the fastest moves. She has a force-tech like reset from takedown canceling 7p into 2p during stun, and this can be useful. However, in general it seems like your best bet here is to mix in the occasional 3f+k after stun - 3p, as the stun from a 3p should be long enough to ensure a hit and hopefully they will be too worried about needing to instantly hold the followup from 3pp and avoid a mount to react to the 3f+k.

With all this in mind, overall it seems after initial stun like Mila should employ:

9k - p+k - 2f+p
3pp - p+k - 6p - p+k - p+k - 2f+p
3p 9k
3p throw
3p 3f+k 2p 3f+k.

These options should work for most stuns and give the opponent only 2 chances to hold their way out of the situation. Otherwise you should have a mount or a force tech situation. There's a lot of 3p in there but that's quite intentional; if you're really mixing with 9k or the occasional throw they should be afraid to hold mid punch every time. For longer stuns 3f+k isn't even a bad option but 9k and 3p should work from almost any situation. She really doesn't need more mixups than 9k/3p as she's not in a situation where she has exotic combo options (e.g. Tina). Simplicity seems to fit her style well.

Thoughts? Keep in mind I'm not trying to get to CB here; I actually think Mila really doesn't need it and she has some difficulty setting it up. 6p+k can be useful though.
 

Yaguar

Well-Known Member
Tested a few of these tonight whilst I was tutoring a mate on some basic stuff.

Found I got caught a lot leading in with 3P but the 9K setup was amazing at throwing him off. Will have to check these out in some more serious games later but I like them a lot.

1P+K also worked as a nice setup stun from my minimal experience with them. +22 and not +26 like 4H+K so possible SE from it though. Not sure what fastest SE is from 1P+K because I'm MLG No Scope Bass Kick pro. (AKA useless when it comes to remembering every detail).
 

shinryu

Active Member
1p+k is i think +17 on fastest escape, but that means 3p and 9k both should still work for the combos above. So for these combos it's definitely a great opener. If you have a bit of space use the takedown cancel version, it's better on block. Abuse 4k as well.

When you say leading in with 3p, do you mean after the initial stun or as an opener? As an opening move it's kind of weak unless you can counter hit. After the stun is when it's most useful. You really do have to make sure to mix in 236f+p and more rarely 9k, though, you want them to be afraid of holding 3p since the 236f+p can really really hurt. 9k is mostly just to catch them if they try to stagger escape out and punish a throw whiff. Same for after the 3p hits, though you can there more freely just fall back to finishing 3pp or throwing since they really have to shit or get off the pot with a hold or they eat the second p. The occasional 3f+k keeps them honest about it.
 

Yaguar

Well-Known Member
Yeah it was after the stun. I started using a few 236F+P in there too but generally went with 9K as it was working at that time.

I'll get on with some big use of this tonight and see where I end up.
 

shinryu

Active Member
Hope that went well!

Anyway, so I thought I'd post on a couple of alternative extensions for completeness and mixups. I do think generally going 3p/9k after initial stun is the best option. However, 4k does tend to counterhit a lot and it's worth knowing the best way to follow up afterwards.

Basically, if you're going to use a mid-kick from stun, it should be 4k or 7k. 4k after an initial stun, 7k after a 3p extender. 7k's use is simpler, so I'll get it out of the way.

Using 7k requires a fairly long stun; in the context of the optimized combo flow, the only time it really fits is after a 3p stun. This typically means that it will be the third hit in the combo. You can attempt to fully charge it to get the sitdown stun or guard break, and used sparingly this isn't a bad idea (keep in mind the opponent has to hold almost instantly to get out of 3pp, so if they commit to holding mid punch you should almost certainly catch them). Used without charge you should have enough of a stun to mix up between 6p+k for the CB or 6f+k for a launch. There's not much point in using other moves at this point; you might as well go for the big damage if you're this deep in the string.

4k is a bit more complex. You really want to get into the habit of always going for takedown cancels after 4k, at least in combos, and frequently after using it as a poke as well. It's totally safe to do so in stun, as they can't actually low throw you. As 7k fits the needs for a third attack, 4k fits best as a second attack mixup with 3p or of course as a starter on its own from a counter hit. Once it hits and you takedown cancel, your best options are to either use the takedown cancel k launcher or to cancel the takedown cancel (tap f twice, basically) and use 6p as a mid punch extender. While you can use the takedown cancel p the stun is inferior to 6p and basically gives you no good options other than trying for 9k if it's the third hit in the combo. If 4k hits on counter though using the cancel p is totally fine, as the stun is long enough for 3p or 9k to connect. You have something like +15 after the cancel against fast stagger escaping so plenty of time to use 6p; also, the advantage is such that 236f+p should almost exactly connect when they come out of stun. You also have enough advantage to just do another takedown with 66f+p and stuff them.
 

shinryu

Active Member
There's no point launching with 9k, either push for CB or go for 3H+K. If they hold your mid throw their face off.

Disagreed. 9k is the only option if you're looking for a launch that will get you p+k after an initial stun and getting to p+k and mount as fast as possible is Mila's ideal situation outside of force tech situations. Whiffing a throw can be very dangerous as well, whereas 9k should be relatively less so. You can only really afford to mix 3f+k in after you've got a longer stun going with 3p, otherwise it will generally be blockable unless you lead in with e.g. 7k. It's arguable whether the 3p/4k mixup is preferable or not, I suppose this depends on your comfort level with the cancel and stun game.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
9k is high and unsafe so there's a higher chance of someone holding out of it, It does less damage than every other option except throw on NH(Throw on CH, CB, 3F+K set-up).

3F+K is safe at -4, it's a mid, and it offers a set up that loops from one option and the other gives more damage than 9k.

IF you're using a stun they can SE (which you shouldn't be) and they're just SEing into block then 9k will get a little more damage than a throw or tackle (On CH only), but then you open up more options for them to guess between. If they decide to hold low, you're not gonna have fun.

There's no really good reason to use 9k that I can see.
 

shinryu

Active Member
Well, you're screwed either way if the low hold and you attempt to throw, and you're also screwed if you attempt to throw and they do nothing. Most of Mila's lead-in stuns (with the exception of 7k) aren't going to give you enough frame advantage to safely throw or to 3f+k without being blocked. When you've got that set up with 3p after the initial stun, sure, it's probably the best option as a mixup with 3pp. But you don't have the frames to make that happen after e.g 4f+k or 4k counterhit. Since you don't have a fast mid kick launcher I'd argue it's the best mixup option from the majority of initial stuns. If you're Tina and you've got something like 33k/8p to guaranteed 33k, using 9k is dumb. But Mila doesn't have anything like that mixup, this is the best she can do. Also, 9k is often the only thing that will reach other than 3p after some stuns (think 4f+k long distance), so it's 9k or nothing in terms of a mixup after that.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
That's why CB is a mid and you always go for that first. 3F+K and throw are your options after they hold it. 3pp sucks; 4pp is probably her best option. If they hold low the second is still a mid, and it does more damage than just doing 4k, 3p, etc.

It's one thing to do it after a stun where you have no choice than to consider it a main option for mix up.
 

shinryu

Active Member
So Jefffcore has found that p6pp will give a 3f+k pseudo tech at something like +11 on tech for everybody, and as far as I know you can always get that on just about everybody after 3p launches. Which it should do after a 3pp guaranteed. So forget going for p+k after that and just 3p to p6pp 3f+k and keep up pressure, there's no reason to ever do another combo except to get a kill. Ground throws in general are now totally obsolete outside of a few cases. This shits on Helena's stuff.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
It works from something like 2H+P > 9k, too, but you don't get the same advantage because it's lower. Same for a wall splat. Those and launches from 3p are +4 on Lights, +3 on Mids, and it doesn't work on Heavies or Gen Fu.

If it's done after CB on lights you get a 6H+P that can only be beaten by attacks that crush or jump; on mids it's 5H+P, but there's no point doing it.
 

Yaguar

Well-Known Member
Derp question time:

What defines a pseudo-tech? I understand force tech's but the whole pseudo is a term I'm not familiar with (though I've seen it thrown around).
Cheers in advance,
Blitz.
 

shinryu

Active Member
A true force tech is inescapable, it either comes from a hard knockdown that can't be teched (e.g. Mila's 3f+k into 2p 3f+k) or it hits in the few vulnerable frames before an opponent can tech (Helena's 9k 1ppk juggle). You just have to take the damage and defend from disadvantage.

A pseudo force tech, on the other hand, is usually a juggle ender that is not guaranteed to force a tech; if the opponent tech rolls after Mila's p6pp 3f+k, for example, they won't be hit by the 3f+k and won't be damaged and force teched at +19. However, Mila recovers from 3f+k before they recover from the tech, so she still has advantage even though her force tech attack whiffed. Basically it means that it might as well be a force tech, since either the opponent lays there and suffers the actual force tech, or techs and is still at (a smaller) disadvantage.

You'll typically give up some damage to go for a pseudo tech vs. a maximum damage juggle, but in most cases the advantage you'll get will outweigh the damage unless you would finish the opponent off. This is especially true in Mila's case since she thrives off keeping pressure. Also, you may be able to train an opponent to always tech after they get launched, which means you can use some nastier setups against a tech when you anticipate it. I think we can probably work out an optimized path to p6pp 3f+k as I suspect that stun 3pp p+k may still do the job. I need to check.
 

Kakita

Member
Just to clarify, on what type of launch are you all using the P6PP / 3F+K juggle ender?

Is this only after a CB launch and if so what launcher?

Very interesting find this is close to Hayabusa's stuff in Doa4!

All I can say is that 3F+K into 3F+K into 9P into 3F+K into TD is nothing less bit satisfaction :p

Thanks in advance!
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
You can do it off anything, but you get more advantage the higher they are. 33p is her best launch because it recovers faster than 6H+K and it does more damage.
 

Kakita

Member
You can do it off anything, but you get more advantage the higher they are. 33p is her best launch because it recovers faster than 6H+K and it does more damage.
Right, I should really use 33P rather than 6F+K after CB, but the damn buffering in this game kills me sometimes. Especially with Busa after a succesful 214P into 33P (I end up doing 236P and get held...sigh).
Back to Mila!
With this pseudo-Force Tech of yours, do you find the advantage is worth the loss in damage? It becomes a 50/50 after all and a wrong guess would definitely suck.
I find that unless my opponent constantly escapes my TD ground and pound, I would go for the damage, but maybe that's because I lack insight (in terms of potential follow ups off the tech) or I'm just simply addicted to her CB damage potential...
After all, compared to Helena that doesn't sacrifice too much, Mila sacrifices a lot, especially after CB...
Also factor in some stages that have uneven slopes and this becomes messy business. Then again, it could also potentially ruin P+K into 2T...
As a side note, I remember when Master and I were working on Forcetechs for Hayabusa in DOA4, our rule of thumb was to never sacrifice more than 20% of your juggle damage potential for an untechable. Not to mention that DOA4 had unholdable attacks and throws that could beat attacks on wakeup because of the hold glitch, so forcetechs were superior in DOA4 compared to DOA5 I find. Mind you I'm making a comparison with Hayabusa (arguably the character with the best tech game in DOA4).
And finally, I'm not sure if this would be useful to anyone, but in DOA4, Hayabusa had to use different Forcetechs depending on the stance he was in (open or close) and as a result of this, each of those forcetechs had their own unholdables to follow up with. Not sure if this is also the case with DOA5 but I think it should be taken into consideration when doing research.
Food for thought.
 

Jefffcore

Well-Known Member
Hayabusa's ground game was godlike, no one really took the time with DOA4 to realize it though.

Being that it depends what height you have, weight class plays a big part. On Light's and Mid's you have enough advantage to go for a tackle and take more health than the guaranteed mount. On Light's you get an almost free 6T that they can only stop by putting themself into a crouch or jump. If you're doing it on Heavy's you wont be able to do either of those if they hit a button, you're just getting rid of the wake up. If you go for the guaranteed mount and they break it, it's still the same effect, so I wouldn't recommend doing it after CB on Heavy's. Doing it from other launches I'd definitely do it; wall splat, etc. This is all assuming they tech of course. If they don't you force them up with +20 and you can do whatever you want.

I'm gonna have to check to see what the damage all adds up to, I don't remember.

Edit:

Math stuffs:
All on NH

Most Damaging Combos
Heavyweight
CB > 6H+K (33P is too high/recovers too fast) > 3PP > KP > Mount = 152 without last hit 132

Lightweight and Midweights
A full CB > 33P > P6PP > P+K > Mount is 144 (They can wake up kick from this).
The last hit on the mount is 20, so not doing it leaves you with 124 and advantage.

**Neither combo for guaranteed mount work on Gen Fu

Pseudo
The combo I was doing with CB > 33P > P6PP was getting me 88.

6T is 48 with the kick, and +11
Tackle on NH is 75, on Counter it's 90. Also keep in mind that a tackle does 30 initially, a mount does nothing.

From a tech:
Lightweights + 8
Mid +6
Heavy +4

88 (original combo) + 48 = 136 with +11
88 + 75 (full tackle) = 163 (they can wake up kick after this) -20 from not doing last hit = 143 and advantage
88 + 90 (full tackle on Counter) = 178 (they can wake up kick) -20 = 158 and advantage

** You don't have enough advantage to tackle a heavyweight if they press a button

If 3H+K hits:
It does 95 damage and gives you +20

If 9P hits you get 3H+K again, that gives 35 then +20 again.

95 + 35 = 130
95 + 75 = 170 (they can wake up kick) -20 = 150 and advantage

9P is mid, hold resistant, wont be beat by anything and only -3. After a hold you're still -3.

Hope it helps!
 
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