How Big is the Hold Window?
- Thread starter Madian
- Start date
Django
Member
well it was 22 before...
also these frames aren't really followed when Holding in stun.
The frame window is fine. Especially in DOA5.
shunwong
Active Member
How long are they in stun?
Django
Member
the hold recovery is equal to the number of stun frame they would have if they stagger escape on fastest...
which is dumb, cause a spammed hold = Fastest Stagger Escape.
so if a move give +22 stun, but 15 +stun on stagger escape on fastest then the hold would be over in 15 frames. but for them to be +15 it would mean they hold right as soon as they got hit. if they hold 10 frames after getting hit it would be +25.
but you can't forget that some moves like sitdown stun, don't let you hold out right away, i.e. Tina 8P is +19 on fastest but if you were just spamming hold u can't hold until frame 20 now u have 19 frames for the hold to end. making the stun seen as +38. but it still follows the first 18 frames rule, it just the hold might be shorter with no recovery.
Madian
Active Member
Call me the odd man out but that seems excessively complicated. So basically the game punishes your for holding late after a stun?
AegisOrnus
Active Member
At the very, very, very least I'd like to see the active frames for counters reduced by 2 frames or so. There are still some instances where someone's throwing out a counter randomly from a neutral situation and they just happen to catch my late attack intended to punish their hold.
Doug Nguyen
Well-Known Member
I hate low holders, even though im sometimes guilty for it. Wish i could make a lobby where if you low hold twice in a row, you just explode.
Madian
Active Member
This is my main complaint with the hold system. Delaying an attack or free canceling only to get countered by the same hold you baited out just feels like it's punishing offense too heavily Instead of delaying to catch a hold attempt you basically have to erase that attack height entirely. Even worse if it's a low hold.
If it was 2 frames you guys would still whine it was unfair. Might as well just take 'em out if it please you so much.
Honestly, I feel the counter windows are just large/small enough that if you know what move your enemy is going to do next, you can hold it, and if you guess wrong, you will be punished. And that's exactly what they're there for. The damage caused by holds isn't ridiculously high in this one like it was in some of the previous games, so I don't really have a problem with it.
Call me crazy, but intimidation of the feature alone preventing move spams is one of the core aspects that makes DOA so appealing and sets it apart from other fighters. Nothing is more boring that watching two butt-munches in SF toss out 500 thousand hadoukens every match, and sadly that's what you see at beginner-level play and competitive level play. It's fucking ridiculous.
Honestly, I feel the counter windows are just large/small enough that if you know what move your enemy is going to do next, you can hold it, and if you guess wrong, you will be punished. And that's exactly what they're there for. The damage caused by holds isn't ridiculously high in this one like it was in some of the previous games, so I don't really have a problem with it.
Call me crazy, but intimidation of the feature alone preventing move spams is one of the core aspects that makes DOA so appealing and sets it apart from other fighters. Nothing is more boring that watching two butt-munches in SF toss out 500 thousand hadoukens every match, and sadly that's what you see at beginner-level play and competitive level play. It's fucking ridiculous.
d3v
Well-Known Member
Is variety really that important to casuals that "spamming" always gets demonized? Or, at least in the SF example, are newer folk simply not able to understand the dynamics of a zoning matchup. And I say "newer" because if you ask vets from the 90's (e.g. Valle or Seth Killian) they'll tell you all about the nuances of said matchups, where every single pixel of space gained can be advantageous and how 1 or 2 frames of mistiming can bring a match on one guys favor.
Holds still require a frame to become active, right? With force techs this might imply a situation where there are actually still unholdable setups (I'm not sure if this is how it worked in DOA4?). If you're at e.g. -19 and I time an attack to be in active frames at the 20th frame, your hold can't execute in time to stop it, right? If so this is some potentially epic nasty for a few characters. I think this may mean that e.g. Tina's 46p after a 2p1p force tech is actually unholdable (it takes 18 frames to execute but I'm relatively certain that it must have two active frames since it will still hit someone after that force tech if they do anything except stand motionless). Bayman may have an unholdable 236k after certain force techs. Mila might have several after hers.
Django
Member
46P hits way later at that range thats why u get +3/+4 on it, so it hitting at like 22/23.
But in principle this is how it works, right? So say after the +17 reset I use 3k, it's 15 frames and I think it has at least 2 active frames; assuming the second active frame should then be active on on the first frame they can act on the first frame the opponent can act, they can't hold it, right? Obviously it's not as strong as resetting with 6f+k but if it's totally safe from both throw punishment and holds it would be a nice option to have. I'm sure there might be better options.