Helping Players To Get Better

[Chris Harris]

Hey guys I have been putting out videos (only 2 thus far) of "beginner" tutorial videos for characters and we got some good feedback. I feel like it's helping but I think I can help even further than this. My videos aren't very adept at helping someone who has played the character beyond the beginning stages (although it may help to spark new ideas). Some players have been playing since Dead or Alive 5 Vanilla and still don't know how to progress.

When I was playing well at DoA4 (or any of the games I have been good at) it was mainly because I had found so many players that were better than me or games would always be close. In DoA i played with a giant group but when I started getting better it was because I played with top players on a consistent basis online/offline so my level of play increased drastically. I got to discuss and even at my mid level play I got a ton of critique which really helped me. And the critique is something that likely helped me the most because it gave me another out look on ways to play the character(s) so even if I didn't agree with it I would have that information.

So with that being said if any players out there want another out look on their game play feel free to send me a video. There are a few ways to go about this and I'm okay with any of them but it's up to the player on how they want to proceed after sending the video (assuming someone does lol).

1. Send me the video and I just PM you what I thought you could use/improve upon
2. Send me the video and I do a video going over your play as well as things to improve on
3. (Future) I will be able to stream the critiquing and possibly going over multiple videos

So we'll see how things go and then see how to proceed from there.

Also Allan Paris is also doing tutorials for characters so if you haven't checked those out you might want to.

 

[Tenryuga]

Much appreciated. I assume videos between players of even or greater skill level are ideal?

 

[Chris Harris]

Much appreciated. I assume videos between players of even or greater skill level are ideal?

Yes it's a little difficult to critique your game play if you are obviously better than your opponent. So like 1-3 games against someone of even/greater skill would be optimal if you wanted help.

 

[xZacksterx]

I actually really want to get better at this game as i have for a while... i need a good trainer to show me some things

 

[Dr.Bhup]

Could somebody help me understand the framedata in the games. I know what frames are and what it means that a move is say +2 on block and so on.

But when I do a move the game gives me 3 numbers. like say 17 (3) 18.

What the hell does that number in the paranthesis mean? I know that 17 is the speed but what are those two other numbers. I'm actually only interested in the speed of the move, the frames on block and on hit. Rest is not important to me.

Also, how do you cathegorize a character in DOA? I'm from Tekken background and we have lists of punishers, launchers, good moves like pokes and safe attacks and such. I cannot seem to find this kind of information on most character threads. Don't you guys collect info together like that?

 

[Chris Harris]

I actually really want to get better at this game as i have for a while... i need a good trainer to show me some things

Like what?

Could somebody help me understand the framedata in the games. I know what frames are and what it means that a move is say +2 on block and so on.

But when I do a move the game gives me 3 numbers. like say 17 (3) 18.

What the hell does that number in the paranthesis mean? I know that 17 is the speed but what are those two other numbers. I'm actually only interested in the speed of the move, the frames on block and on hit. Rest is not important to me.

Also, how do you cathegorize a character in DOA? I'm from Tekken background and we have lists of punishers, launchers, good moves like pokes and safe attacks and such. I cannot seem to find this kind of information on most character threads. Don't you guys collect info together like that?

IIRC the parenthesis number is active frames and the last number is the recovery. I could be wrong but I think that's correct.

I've been working on small tutorials when I have time to help players understand the beginnings of a couple of characters (Allan Paris has also started doing this as well). Not sure why people don't post more but I think it's because a lot of opinions in this game and people are afraid to speak up. . .

 

[Drake Aldan]

What the hell does that number in the paranthesis mean? I know that 17 is the speed but what are those two other numbers. I'm actually only interested in the speed of the move, the frames on block and on hit. Rest is not important to me.

It should be!

The number in parentheses is active frames and the last number is recovery frames, as said. This is important for a number of reasons; a move with large active frames can "clip" the opponent if they move into range, and taking active frames and recovery frames together is necessary to statistically judge the ability of that move to be reliably whiff punished.

This kind of frame data is hidden in every fighting game, including Tekken! The only reason you have not seen it until DOA is because Namco is stupid.

 

[Dr.Bhup]

It should be!

The number in parentheses is active frames and the last number is recovery frames, as said. This is important for a number of reasons; a move with large active frames can "clip" the opponent if they move into range, and taking active frames and recovery frames together is necessary to statistically judge the ability of that move to be reliably whiff punished.

This kind of frame data is hidden in every fighting game, including Tekken! The only reason you have not seen it until DOA is because Namco is stupid.

Yes, the active frames might be ok to know, so you know for how long your opponent can get hit by the move. And if a opponent whiffs then the recovery frames will tell how punishable it is. Usually if a mov whiffs, it is punishabel by almost every move in Tekken, så people don't care about the recovery frames. But then again, you have som quick and safe characters who can never be punished even on whiff because they probably have small recovery frames!

Thanks for clearing it up!

 

[xZacksterx]

basically like a sparing partner and someone tht can help me identify my mistakes and what im doing wrong

 

[Brute]

Damn, this sounds great! I need to save some of my losses and upload 'em. This could be a great help to me.

 

[Chris Harris]

basically like a sparing partner and someone tht can help me identify my mistakes and what im doing wrong

Ask around I'm sure you can find some people to play with and help you out. I'm not really online enough for that type of venture lol.

Damn, this sounds great! I need to save some of my losses and upload 'em. This could be a great help to me.

Just send me a PM and I'll be more than happy to shoot you some ideas.

 

[Yaguar]

I got way too excited seeing this and have inboxed you as fast as I could.

Great idea and fantastic community opportunity!

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

I have the perfect replays for this, I have a couple of matches of me having Hayabusa mirrors against MASTER and would love to see where the hell I went wrong.

 

[Dr.Bhup]

Little help, guys!

I still don't understand the whole 'hold'-thing... is it important? Does high level player ever actually use it? Is it done reliably in matches?

What I'm wondering is: Can you hold EVERY move? Can you hold in the middle of the opponent's string? Because I tried to, but I just couldn't do it. My conclusion is that you can only hold at the start of a new string or a single move, or if the opponent delays the so it isn't a natural combo anymore.

The 'hold'-deal is really confusing. I haven't had any successful holds EVER! (7 days of play)
Bacause you can just interrupt a string and cancel it to another move. also, if someone is doing a combo, you always have so many option -at least I've learned combos where I can interchange the next string to be either high punch, mid punch or mid kick. No way my opponent is guessing correct other than a lucky guess once in a while.

So my gameplan at least for now doesn't revolve around making 'hold' a huge part of my play. But then DOA just gets reduced to just another fighter with spacing and punishing. I atually liked the 'hold'-threat, but it's almost non-existing!

 

[StrikerSashi]

You can hold whenever you're in neutral or in critical stun, which basically means you can hold the majority of moves. You can't hold when you're sitting on the ground, falling backwards, or in critical burst.

You'll have an easier time of holding after knowing more about the character you're fighting against. That said, it will be risky if you're predicting instead reacting to a move, and most moves aren't reactable, which means that holding is something that you should do only when you have a good read on the opponent and even then it should be done sparingly.

 

[Argentus]

Little help, guys!

I still don't understand the whole 'hold'-thing... is it important? Does high level player ever actually use it? Is it done reliably in matches?

What I'm wondering is: Can you hold EVERY move? Can you hold in the middle of the opponent's string? Because I tried to, but I just couldn't do it. My conclusion is that you can only hold at the start of a new string or a single move, or if the opponent delays the so it isn't a natural combo anymore.

The 'hold'-deal is really confusing. I haven't had any successful holds EVER! (7 days of play)
Bacause you can just interrupt a string and cancel it to another move. also, if someone is doing a combo, you always have so many option -at least I've learned combos where I can interchange the next string to be either high punch, mid punch or mid kick. No way my opponent is guessing correct other than a lucky guess once in a while.

So my gameplan at least for now doesn't revolve around making 'hold' a huge part of my play. But then DOA just gets reduced to just another fighter with spacing and punishing. I atually liked the 'hold'-threat, but it's almost non-existing!

You can hold basically any situation except juggles and being on the ground amd due to constant stun, its often your only option.

However, only hold if you know what tier the attacks are, high, mid, etc. Like normally, holds are my primary offense, due to familiarity with my enemy, reading, and mindgames. But against characters I'm unfamiliar with fighting, like kokoro or brad, I don't really bother countering because I can't tell what their moves are, and I don't guess, since that will only backfire.

 

[Drake Aldan]

Can you hold in the middle of the opponent's string?

Sometimes. With those "sometimes", it will be hard or impossible to do in lag. (You're playing offline, right?)

A hold's main purpose is to stop the opponent from repeating themselves. If you notice that the enemy always uses a certain sequence of moves, you can hold along points in the offense pattern to stop them. If the opponent always goes for Critical Burst, you can hold their attack before they have a chance to land it. Etc., etc.
In layman's terms, holding is anti-spam.

It will take a lot of experience and a lot of getting hit to come to the point where you can preempt an opponent's attack pattern, so, use holds sparingly (if we're being conservative) and try to save them for when you are sure you have a lock on your opponent's tendencies.

You can go a step further and hold in emergency situations (i.e. Critical Level 2/3) but then you would only be guessing if you have no experience with your opponent, and you would open yourself up to Hi-Counter throws.


High level players do indeed use holds. Check out the archived TFC matches sometime.

 

[Yaguar]

After getting my critique I've had an evening to play with the new stuff I was suggested by Chris.
It helped me a lot. It has even somehow got me more focused because I'm less auto-pilot on what I knew and now integrating new things with more choices (and I'll research even more as per his recommendation!).

This service receives a gold star approval from lil ol' me.

 

[Fearless]

Is frame data really necessary for victory?

I do realize that it's handy to know your characters quickest/safest and slowest/unsafest moves.

But is putting so much time into studying frame data a necessity to become a pro?

 

[Drake Aldan]

Frame data isn't for memorization purposes, it's for knowing your options at any one given point in time.

Two examples:

- The more disadvantage you have, the less options you will be able to take. This increases in severity until you get to the point of guaranteed punishment.

So, being at -6 is a much different situation than being at -15. Likewise, the same goes when comparing -3 to -6.

- Looking at recovery frames, it is possible to note where you are most likely to be able to whiff punish moves on reaction. This also has a flipside; moves with low recovery can be used as bait for players who are trigger happy with their whiff punishment.


You shouldn't need to be able to recall 6P's active frames at any time, but you should know how to use frame data to assist in analyzing and deconstructing various scenarios, so that you can better manage risk when exchanging blows, apply punishment when possible, or avoid retaliation altogether.