Gripes with the system

[Chris Harris]

Hey guys, what are your gripes with the DoA system? Is it holds, oki, stuns, etc? If you do answer please give a reason with more substance than, "I just don't like it" or "It goes against fighting games fundamentals" without being able to back it up with real facts.

Admins please try to monitor this thread to keep as much poo out as possible.

 

[Chapstick]

70-100 damage holds (I think Lei Fang can go over 100 with her expert holds on hi-counter) on strikes that do less than 20 kind of bug me. Imagine a match where someone used three basic punches, got hi-countered each time, and then bam KO.

Edit- I just checked, Lei's expert holds do 104 or 112 on hi counter. Almost all of her basic ones do 97 on hi counter.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Lack of oki. Every knockdown, I'm on the defensive even thought I have the momentum. Very rarely do I even have the chance to do some tricky stuff to avoid/stuff wakeup kicks. It's like combo, Korean backdash away quickly, dash back and hope they respect my options. Wakeup kicks are still too safe. Should be -60 on block.

 

[Drake Aldan]

It's like combo, Korean backdash away quickly, dash back and hope they respect my options.

The worst part is when you're too slow or too close and you get counter-hit backdashing. X(

 

[Matt Ponton]

70-100 damage holds (I think Lei Fang can go over 100 with her expert holds on hi-counter) on strikes that do less than 20 kind of bug me. Imagine a match where someone used three basic punches, got hi-countered each time, and then bam KO.

Edit- I just checked, Lei's expert holds do 104 or 112 on hi counter. Almost all of her basic ones do 97 on hi counter.

Keep in mind that she has to hold with the first two active frames being the one to connect on your hit frames to get hi-counter, and her hi-counter property doesn't continue if an attack is guaranteed in the frame advantage window. She'd be granted normal hit damage revision.

Of course, if you just have the sparring mode set to Hi-Counter always, it will give hi-counter damage revision even at times where it will only give normal damage.

 

[Tenryuga]

The guessing game on block and normal hit. Since almost everything is frame disadvantage things become a question of is "He going to finish the string or not? Should I hold or SS it?" For the defender and "Should I delay or not? Should I free cancel into a string? Should I free cancel into a hold or block/ SS?" For the attacker. I think free canceling and delays are cool but I disagree with the pseudo-offense that DOA has because only certain characters benefit from it (Like Alpha 152). It is also a risky and unsafe way to pressure.

I also dislike how much invincibility a grounded opponent has. I have nothing against being required to make reads to continue my offense but its undeniable things are in the grounded players favor because 8 times out of 10 people back away from someone on the ground.
It could be fear of wake up kicks but I doubt it.

I back up because I know I'm not going to get anything worthwhile but a 2P ground hit (which probably won't even happen because of the invincibility or me getting CH by a wakeup kick.). and possible a DOA4 style tech if I'm lucky. So I'd rather create space and respond accordingly to what the opponent does.

This is one game where no character makes me fear being knocked down except Rachel, Bass and Kasumi somewhat because her oki is alright if you try to wake up kick and she can space herself out with 7P flip.

I don't have a gripe with the triangle system. I just think things need to be balanced out because strikes are weak for some characters and they MUST play the stun game for damage but don't have the tools to do so like NC's, 2 in 1's, guaranteed stuns, unholdable stuns etc. I still question why PP isn't a natural combo for strikers in stun.

 

[Batcommander]

Counter hits giving way too much advantage, especially fast mids. Obviously they have their place otherwise there'd be no triangle system (which i dont mind as much these days), but fast mids giving +20 on counter hit is dumb to me, it should be like +8 or grant a natural combo (which would then leave you at +8).

Guard breaks that leave you at negative on block or give a tiny bit of advantage but leave too much space to do anything, especially considering how slow most of GBs are.

NH lows that cause critical stun

wakeup kicks are way too powerful still, if they only gave you a flat +5 like in VF, then you could actually risk using meaties to crush them; totally not worth it atm.

way too many strings have tracking and are delayable. This game is already very liberal with the amount of mid to low, low to mid mixups (something thats rare in other 3d fighters), but add on the ability to delay any of the strings too--i think its too much. No wonder its hard as hell to sidestep. They should tone down a lot of what can be delayed so that you have to commit to the string and use it smartly.

backdashing is ass in this game compared to other 3d fighters, i'd like to see this buffed especially since this game is very counter hit dependent.

 

[Chapstick]

Keep in mind that she has to hold with the first two active frames being the one to connect on your hit frames to get hi-counter, and her hi-counter property doesn't continue if an attack is guaranteed in the frame advantage window. She'd be granted normal hit damage revision.

Of course, if you just have the sparring mode set to Hi-Counter always, it will give hi-counter damage revision even at times where it will only give normal damage.

Her expert holds still do 93 on normal counter. Lei Fang's one of my subs and I've definitely won a lot of fights with her thanks to a well-timed hold. My general point is some hold damage is too high proportionate to the attacks they catch.

 

[Drake Aldan]

Counter hits giving way too much advantage, especially fast mids. Obviously they have their place otherwise there'd be no triangle system (which i dont mind as much these days), but fast mids giving +20 on counter hit is dumb to me, it should be like +8 or grant a natural combo (which would then leave you at +8).

It pretty much has to be this way... A lot of strikes on NH give no or negative frames, so the whole game pretty much is CH fishing.

It's like VF, work the elbow...

Guard breaks that leave you at negative on block or give a tiny bit of advantage but leave too much space to do anything, especially considering how slow most of GBs are.

This is pretty stupid.

way too many strings have tracking and are delayable.

I think this is just an effect of retracking with strings.

In Soul Calibur (unless you're fighting Mitsu! ha!) if you step the other guy will start whiffing into the distance. In DOA, step seems pretty weak (or at least niche) to me, since if you step you have to make sure that your followup attack is fast enough to beat the next strike... since the next strike will follow your position.

A lot of times I feel I would rather hold or block than step.

backdashing is ass in this game compared to other 3d fighters, i'd like to see this buffed especially since this game is very counter hit dependent.

KBD isn't so bad IMO. Some chars have better ones than others...

 

[Argentus]

I still hate that the attacker gets to continue attacking a downed oppomemt so easily now because you can't counter on the ground anymore. It's like "dude, the fuck. You already beat me to the ground, and now the game is gonna reward you further by letting you just continue attacking? What's the point of me even getting knocked down?"

To clarify, attacking downed opponents doesn't bother me, its that my character is forced to stand back up into the continuing offense. UM, NO. My character shouldn't get back up until I say so. Once I'm down, i should be down until I decide to get up, with exceptions like bass' lift, and ground bounces.

But that just comes back my pet peeve of "why the fuck can my opponent control my character but I can't?!"

 

[StrikerSashi]

'Cause you messed up. If you're angry at the options you have to choose from, nine times out of ten, it's 'cause you screwed up five seconds ago.

 

[Argentus]

'Cause you messed up. If you're angry at the options you have to choose from, nine times out of ten, it's 'cause you screwed up five seconds ago.

Nothing personal, but that's one of the dumbest excuses I've heard . (Repeat, nothing personal, this is just a berserk button for me)

When the only counterargument is "well just don't get hit, ever" then all it does is prove me right that its bs. It's statistically impossible to to perfect.every round of every match. They will get a lucky hit. And them getting lucky isn't me making a mistake. Nor is them using a guaranteed setup or juggle. Thats not me making a mistake, that's them specifically using a setup that ensures I can't do anything, let alone a mistake.

If I make a mistake, like a misread or missed counter, ill own up to it. My rage comes from when I cant even control my character.

 

[StrikerSashi]

I'm not saying don't get hit ever. I'm saying getting hit is why you're in a bad situation.

 

[Drake Aldan]

I still hate that the attacker gets to continue attacking a downed oppomemt so easily now because you can't counter on the ground anymore. It's like "dude, the fuck. You already beat me to the ground, and now the game is gonna reward you further by letting you just continue attacking? What's the point of me even getting knocked down?"

Wake.

Up.

Kick.


There are games with worse okizeme, trust me.

 

[StrikerSashi]

DOA already has no okizeme, honestly. Game I play have ridiculous stuff like this.

 

[Viper Excess]

Imagine being able to leave an energy ball for opponents waking up from the bed of concrete below them...But seriously, I don't think it would be bad if there was a way to force opponents to block or lose from a wakeup (or at least force the opponent to choose "should I wakeup kick or block?") In this game, you can delay your wakeup kick for a while, and you can tech in any direction and still wakeup kick WITH delay. If "getting up" could not be delayed or wakeup kicks could only be done in place, this would give a real reason to have meaties in place other than "let me do it late for less recovery." Reduction in invincibility frames for waking up might also do the trick.

I will post something that I think no one else will say. Grapplers should have more advantages in this game. TN could start by giving all grapplers grappler-throw frames. I consider Leon and Rachel to be grapplers but there are only 4 grapplers and three of them are wrestlers. Hayabusa was given grappler throws for no reason (I don't think he is meant to be a real grappler with a 10 frame jab), but there are no other non-wrestler grapplers besides him.

I would also say that there should be something done to grappler neutral throws to make them worthwhile to use (make them give frame advantage upon escape or upon landing them, make them 5 frames but inescapable, something like that), but ppl may complain about them. I just feel that grapplers should have more to them than just "6 frame throw punishes and 1-2 good throws." Suggestions are welcome, lol.

 

[Argentus]

Wake.

Up.

Kick.


There are games with worse okizeme, trust me.

Force tech (and if making me stand up by kicking low is something different) means no wakeup kicks.
A
nd jist because another games is worse doesnt mean this shouldn't be better.

I'm not saying don't get hit ever. I'm saying getting hit is why you're in a bad situation.

Yeah the issue is that there's too many situations where theres nothing I can do about getting hit. Feels like there's very little way to break out of their offense when grounded, when that should be the time i can get a breather due to wakeup scare.

Imagine being able to leave an energy ball for opponents waking up from the bed of concrete below them...But seriously, I don't think it would be bad if there was a way to force opponents to block or lose from a wakeup (or at least force the opponent to choose "should I wakeup kick or block?") In this game, you can delay your wakeup kick for a while, and you can tech in any direction and still wakeup kick WITH delay. If "getting up" could not be delayed or wakeup kicks could only be done in place, this would give a real reason to have meaties in place other than "let me do it late for less recovery." Reduction in invincibility frames for waking up might also do the trick.

I will post something that I think no one else will say. Grapplers should have more advantages in this game. TN could start by giving all grapplers grappler-throw frames. I consider Leon and Rachel to be grapplers but there are only 4 grapplers and three of them are wrestlers. Hayabusa was given grappler throws for no reason (I don't think he is meant to be a real grappler with a 10 frame jab), but there are no other non-wrestler grapplers besides him.

I would also say that there should be something done to grappler neutral throws to make them worthwhile to use (make them give frame advantage upon escape or upon landing them, make them 5 frames but inescapable, something like that), but ppl may complain about them. I just feel that grapplers should have more to them than just "6 frame throw punishes and 1-2 good throws." Suggestions are welcome, lol.

Leon specific, but i think he should have advantage after all his slow power moves, charged, and delayed attacks to reinforce his status as a pure power character as opposed to straight grappler like the others.

 

[Matt Ponton]

If you are able to be forced up, you are able to wake up kick or tech to avoid their force-up attack. There aren't many moves that guarantee a force tech before a wake-up kick or tech is possible.

 

[StrikerSashi]

Outside of a few setups, if you tech and they try to do a force tech, you're at the advantage. Just mash mid/throw. Pretend you're pre-nerf Rachel or you're playing VF. It's legitimately how I play. Every frame advantage is a tickthrow mixup. Every Offensive Vanessa superman punch. :v

 

[Argentus]

Outside of a few setups, if you tech and they try to do a force tech, you're at the advantage. Just mash mid/throw. Pretend you're pre-nerf Rachel or you're playing VF. It's legitimately how I play. Every frame advantage is a tickthrow mixup. Every Offensive Vanessa superman punch. :v

If you are able to be forced up, you are able to wake up kick or tech to avoid their force-up attack. There aren't many moves that guarantee a force tech before a wake-up kick or tech is possible.

T
hen my timing must just be off. Still stuck with the fact that they hit me out of, during tech roll, but its a start.