Balance EX Moves, Meter Gauges & Balance

[Lulu]

1. Boring Explanations
In all likelihood I find it highly unlikely that anybody here doesn't know what EX Moves and Meter Gauges are but for the sake of being Inclusive I must bore you all to Sleep:

So what are EX Moves... well EX Moves are Special Attacks, usually found in 2D Fighting Games, that are in some ways, mores Powerful than regular Special Attacks. These EX Moves are also tethered to a Resource of some sort, usually a Meter or some sort of Gauge that dictates how many times they can be Performed.

2. The General Consensus.
Well if these moves are so great then "Why can't you do them all the time ?" You might be asking. Well because they can be so powerful that they upset the balance of the game so badly that its essentially unplayable... atleast not competitively. Hence they are tethered to a Resource to stop people from Abusing them.

Well if thats the case "Then why not just get rid of them ?" You might be asking. Well thats simple... mostly because the game would be Boring. The added mechanics just increase overall variety. Not only that, having a more Robust set of Mechanics also means you have more tools to alter and tweak the game's balance. If the game only had a few mechanics, changing any of them would have a Drastic Effects possibly making the game even more Unbalanced. Its essentially trying to repair a tiny mechanical watch with Heavy Machinery. Having more moves & mechanics just means The Developers now have the necessary tools to make smaller Adjustments to match small problems.

3. Why They're Stupid.
Now its possible that I'm probably missing something, in which case you are well within you're right to tell me how wrong and Stupid I am... but:

I can't help but feel like this whole thing is Nonsensical.

If a move is so Over Powered that it might ruin the Game... How does tethering it to a Resource all of a sudden make that move not Over Powered ?

Let me see if I can paraphrase my Reasoning there: Moves may have varying Degrees of Effectiveness. But in the end its either Overpowered or it Isn't... regardless of how many times its used. in other words whats really happening when an EX Move uses Meter is: Rather than having a Move that would break The Game's Balance Forever... you instead get an EX Move that Breaks the Game for a very Brief Moment for a Limited Number of times per Round/Match.

The "Brokeness" () is being Managed... rather than being Fixed.

What you wind up with is a Balanced Game with Brief Periods of "Uncompetitive Imbalanced" Play whenever someone whips out an EX Move.

But thats just how I think based on what it looks like. What do you guys Think ?

 

[d3v]

Because meter management actually makes games more interesting, and the choices more meaningful. Most meter powered options are good because, aside from doing more damage, they also provide more utility. With good meter design and a variety of meter powered moves, you end up with a situation where the player needs to make meaningful choices of whether or not they'll use one meter powered option, if it comes at the cost of not being able to use another.

Take for example most Street Fighter IV characters. A lot of them need to use an EX to combo into Ultra. However, using meter to FADC is also an important tool for keeping certain moves safe, in addition to extending combos. So, the choice then becomes, does a player commit to certain moves, using FADC to keep them safe, but at the cost of giving up big damage from a combo to Ultra. At the same time, the opposing player can use this knowledge. If an opponent has EX in stock and Ultra meter, they can bait out EX moves since he knows their opponent will likely look for an EX into Ultra.

 

[Lulu]

Resources Management.... in most cases doesn't actually make games more interesting... generally what it does is makes games not Broken.

I've encountered this argument numerous times in RPGs, Survival Horror & Competitive Games. And I keep getting the same sort of response: "Well the game wouldn't be as interesting if you could do the thing anytime you wanted so limiting its use makes you think about it."

Its not really how it goes.... Generally if you give some one a finite amount of something they just wind up ignoring it.... after all.... theres other things they can use that don't require micromanagement.

Luckily fighting games have sort of fixed this by preventing the ability to hord any excess resources..... if your meters full then theres no point in trying to build more... its at its limit. Thats when they whip out the EX Moves.

.....you end up with a situation where the player needs to make meaningful choices of whether or not they'll use one meter powered option, if it comes at the cost of not being able to use another.

I've come to the Realization that these are not actual choice.... They are semi calculated Gambles. Fact of the matter is you're presented with a choice between burning meter to increase damage or preserving it to make an unsafe move safe.... neither choice is more valid than the other.

Fact is when you decide to go with one option... regardless of the outcome most people will still wonder what might have happened had they decided to try the other option. Hence people spend a considerable amount of time weighing the Pro's and Cons of using EX Moves.

Actually this is something that occured to me when I was thinking about games that uses a Resource Based Combo Breaker Mechanic like in MKX... but it still applies to EX Moves.... and Stamina Bars.... And Type Writer Ribbons.

You get the idea... if the situation is unforseen then theres no real decision to be made... its a Gamble masquerading its self as some sort if Strategic Choice. I generally just don't use EX Moves unless my bar gets full.

 

[d3v]

I've come to the Realization that these are not actual choice.... They are semi calculated Gambles. Fact of the matter is you're presented with a choice between burning meter to increase damage or preserving it to make an unsafe move safe.... neither choice is more valid than the other.

Fact is when you decide to go with one option... regardless of the outcome most people will still wonder what might have happened had they decided to try the other option. Hence people spend a considerable amount of time weighing the Pro's and Cons of using EX Moves.

Actually this is something that occured to me when I was thinking about games that uses a Resource Based Combo Breaker Mechanic like in MKX... but it still applies to EX Moves.... and Stamina Bars.... And Type Writer Ribbons.

You get the idea... if the situation is unforseen then theres no real decision to be made... its a Gamble masquerading its self as some sort if Strategic Choice. I generally just don't use EX Moves unless my bar gets full.

What makes that any different from a meaningful choice? Choosing to do one thing means you may get the reward for it, at the cost of the ability to do. The choice has meaning precisely because of what you gain and what you lose out on when you do it. Having an obvious right and wrong decision actually makes the choice less meaningful.

Besides, what is high level play other than a series of calculated gambles. Every move in high level play is a calculated risk based on a players knowledge of both their own characters moves (hitboxes, frame data, etc.) as well as their opponents tendencies. The same applies to using meter (and fighting against it).

 

[Lulu]

What makes that any different from a meaningful choice? Choosing to do one thing means you may get the reward for it, at the cost of the ability to do. The choice has meaning precisely because of what you gain and what you lose out on when you do it. Having an obvious right and wrong decision actually makes the choice less meaningful.

Besides, what is high level play other than a series of calculated gambles. Every move in high level play is a calculated risk based on a players knowledge of both their own characters moves (hitboxes, frame data, etc.) as well as their opponents tendencies. The same applies to using meter (and fighting against it).

I totally agree.... theres just one tiny lil thing.

It still doesn't explain why meter exists or if its necessary.

 

[d3v]

I totally agree.... theres just one tiny lil thing.

It still doesn't explain why meter exists or if its necessary.

Because they give a game a unique identity and helps define a specific game plays. This is both in terms of aesthetics (with a lot of these meter powered moves can be pretty flashy), and more importantly in terms of gameplay - as how a game's meter management works gives it more of an identity than just aesthetics.

Besides, a lot of meter powered mechanics are nigh impossible to "balance" as you suggest in a way that they don't require meter. For example Roman Cancel/FADC style mechanics cannot work at all in a fair and balanced manner without meter. The same can be said for a plethora of other mechanics, moves, etc.

 

[Lulu]

Because they give a game a unique identity and helps define a specific game plays. This is both in terms of aesthetics (with a lot of these meter powered moves can be pretty flashy), and more importantly in terms of gameplay - as how a game's meter management works gives it more of an identity than just aesthetics.

Besides, a lot of meter powered mechanics are nigh impossible to "balance" as you suggest in a way that they don't require meter. For example Roman Cancel/FADC style mechanics cannot work at all in a fair and balanced manner without meter. The same can be said for a plethora of other mechanics, moves, etc.

Thats it ?

Actually I don't even think what you said makes sense... in this Day and Age you can safely assume any Fighting Game will have Meter Management... if they really wanted a unique identity they'd better off not including it.

That oughta Raise some Eye Brows

As for the Issue of Balance then they could just Include better defensive options.... not like BlazBlue though, that would be counter intuitive.

 

[DedUp]

While I agree that meter can make a game more interesting, I don't think this is guaranteed. If you look at SCV a lot of people rejected that game. Individual reasons for this are varied but I don't think the added meter management and EX moves really helped that much to keep older fans happy or bring in new fans.

I think Lulu has it right that meter is so ubiquitous in fighting games today that its inclusion only stands out when it's added to older franchises that didn't have it previously. If a new game is being made, I believe it's more important for it bring something fresh to the table. Whether it has meter or not should depend on the creator's vision for the game as opposed to being something that absolutely has to be included. Personally I'm interested to see what this gougi system in Arika's new game is about.

 

[Lulu]

You know what would be nice....

Some level Design... just like DoA and Smash.

 

[d3v]

Thats it ?

Actually I don't even think what you said makes sense... in this Day and Age you can safely assume any Fighting Game will have Meter Management... if they really wanted a unique identity they'd better off not including it.

That oughta Raise some Eye Brows

As for the Issue of Balance then they could just Include better defensive options.... not like BlazBlue though, that would be counter intuitive.

Then you end up with just some variation of Street Fighter II, in much the same way many of the fighting games from the early nineties were basically thought of as variants of SFII. It's telling that the most common way that most games from that era differentiated themselves, was by using limited use moves that were stronger than regular moves (super moves, desperation moves, etc.). There's only so much you can add to differentiate a game before you start having to find a way to limit it, usually by tying it to meter.

Then, this is on top of the fact that meter allows for some pretty interesting things. "Install" type supers are the most basic example. Aside from this, we have things such as Urien's Aegis Reflector mixups. Even without the unblockables it created in 3rd Strike, it's still something that you can't really have in the game without meter. Same with things such as Ibuki's bombs in SFV, or Ryu's corner Denjin guard break set ups in 3rd Strike. Heck, without it, you actually lock out certain archetypes of characters that rely on building meter and then cashing out on it (MvC2 Cable, USFIV Elena, almost every character in 3rd Strike, etc.)

If you don't want to neuter all of the above, then the only way would be to add them to a sort of Marvel like game where everything is strong and taken to the extremes. The biggest example here would be pushblocking, which is a free action in Marvel (and VSav), but one that requires meter in other games. It takes an over the top fighter for stuff to be allowed without meter. But then, you simply create a situation where your games are meterless variations of Marvel... and that's without all the extra stuff that meter allows for in Marvel (install supers such as Strider's orbs, Morrigan's sister-sister; meter build reliant characters like Cable.

This leads me to another thing. You keep bringing up "balance", well stuff that isn't "balanced' can actually be fun and interesting if given a limit, such as meter. Again, I come back to Urien's Aegis reflector, which can be used to set up unblockables in SFIII 3rd Strike. When these were discovered, people actually decided that they made the game much more interesting. Same can be said for Makoto's SA2 powered touch of death combos in that same game. This one created an interesting match up where part of it was knowing when and where (since she could only start it with here back to the wall) Makoto could make one good read and just take the whole round. It created a kind of tension that would be lacking otherwise.

 

[Lulu]

Then you end up with just some variation of Street Fighter II, in much the same way many of the fighting games from the early nineties were basically thought of as variants of SFII. It's telling that the most common way that most games from that era differentiated themselves, was by using limited use moves that were stronger than regular moves (super moves, desperation moves, etc.). There's only so much you can add to differentiate a game before you start having to find a way to limit it, usually by tying it to meter.

I think this is just a lack of imagination... besides as I mentioned Earlier so far the Fighting Games I've tried out have wound up feeling Similar any way.... not necessarily because of meter but it's some what telling that SFV's V-Triggers is similar to KOF's Max Mode, Killer Instinct's Instinct and Guilty Gear's whatever it was called.

More interesting is how such a Popular fighting Game series is no longer at the forefront of anything anymore... Pretty much every new feature in SFV is something they borrowed from other Fighting Games.

If you want an example of a proper way for A Game to differentiate its self then just look at Smash.... obviously if you look at smash and copy it then that would be dumb so I meant copy their initiative., not their product.

Then, this is on top of the fact that meter allows for some pretty interesting things. "Install" type supers are the most basic example. Aside from this, we have things such as Urien's Aegis Reflector mixups. Even without the unblockables it created in 3rd Strike, it's still something that you can't really have in the game without meter. Same with things such as Ibuki's bombs in SFV, or Ryu's corner Denjin guard break set ups in 3rd Strike. Heck, without it, you actually lock out certain archetypes of characters that rely on building meter and then cashing out on it (MvC2 Cable, USFIV Elena, almost every character in 3rd Strike, etc.)

What are "Install" Type Supers ?
Anyway other than how broken Aegis Reflector was in 3rd Strike I've never particularly seen how effective Aegis Reflector is in SFV because of the Execution Barrier (Remember ?)

But a Mix Up is a Mix Up... if they are reactable then I don't particularly mind how many bombs Ibuki throws at me....

Of course there is a flaw in my logic.... even if you took off the limiters and by some miracle the game managed to retain its balance then game would windup being Boring because these moves would be the go to option 100% of the time.... and that would just be annoying. With Denjin you'd never use the throw buttons and will be constantly trying to Low Crush Counter anything with a Pulse.... Urien & Ibuki players would never use Overheads since the Bomb/Reflector makes for Better Mix Up strategies.... and don't even get me started on That Pain In The Ass Nadeshiko .

LoL... infact if Capcom gave you infinite EX Moves and V-Triggers then they would just do to them what they did with SPD, SRK and Charge Characters.... drive up the Execution Barrier to stop players from using the bomb after walking forward or whatever... because that fixes everything right Capcom ?

If you don't want to neuter all of the above, then the only way would be to add them to a sort of Marvel like game where everything is strong and taken to the extremes. The biggest example here would be pushblocking, which is a free action in Marvel (and VSav), but one that requires meter in other games. It takes an over the top fighter for stuff to be allowed without meter. But then, you simply create a situation where your games are meterless variations of Marvel... and that's without all the extra stuff that meter allows for in Marvel (install supers such as Strider's orbs, Morrigan's sister-sister; meter build reliant characters like Cable.

I never played Marvel but I hear that game has some seriously Broken Design issues. I can't say whether unshackling EX Moves is going "Marvelise" Street Fighter or not since I don't how Marvel is... I tried it once... gave up because they forced me to use Teams unlike Skull Girls.

This leads me to another thing. You keep bringing up "balance", well stuff that isn't "balanced' can actually be fun and interesting if given a limit, such as meter. Again, I come back to Urien's Aegis reflector, which can be used to set up unblockables in SFIII 3rd Strike. When these were discovered, people actually decided that they made the game much more interesting. Same can be said for Makoto's SA2 powered touch of death combos in that same game. This one created an interesting match up where part of it was knowing when and where (since she could only start it with here back to the wall) Makoto could make one good read and just take the whole round. It created a kind of tension that would be lacking otherwise.

Depends what you mean by Interesting. Near as I can tell all meter does is turn a game temporarily unbalanced in exchange for some meter. If Ryu having Infinite Dengine Mode is Broken and him having Dengin mode for 15 Seconds is Balanced then wheres the line ?

How do we determine X Amount of Denjin is safe and Y Amount of Denjin is Broken ?

I think R. Mika's V-Trigger better exemplifies what I mean since you can setup Geniune Unblockables with those two. Once R. Mika summones Nadeshiko the number of viable options Actually Shrinks instead of Expanding.... since the only way to avoid Nadeshiko is to become invincible.... not many ways of Doing that in SFV.

Its the same thing with Ryu, Urien & Ibuki but to a lesser extent... Once they Activate their V-Triggers, Viable Strategies just dissapear into basically Attempting to Block.

Since my definition of Interesting in term of fighting games is how many viable options are available to both players... then to me Metered moves of that amount of power make the Game less interesting.

 

[d3v]

Because "unbalanced" in limited doses is interesting.

Let's take a look at Super Street Fighter II Turbo, a game that people would put in the more "interesting" end of the spectrum (opposite Street Fighter V, which is on the other end). Super Turbo is far from the most balanced Street Fighter game. In fact, it's known some very lopsided match ups (e.g. Ryu vs Honda being 9:1 in Ryu's favor). The thing is however, this is because everyone in Super Turbo has distinct tools leading to a game where each character match up plays quote differently. This is what leads to the game's imbalance - the way match ups vary so much in that it's impossible to approach each character the same way.

Meter options do a similar thing, except that the imbalances are limited by the meter. Meter changes the way a match up has to be approached mid game, because the player now has to adapt to their opponent gaining more options with meter. This is on top of how their own meter also changes the match up.

 

[Lulu]

Because "unbalanced" in limited doses is interesting.

I totally agree... Generally this type of thing is called fighting for advantage. No competitive game of any type would be Interesting if you didn't craft Locally Inbalances into the system to allow players to gain the Upper Hand. But the whole lets do it with Meter thing just seems lazy... I wouldn't necessarily call it Interesting so much as I would say its less Tedious than the alternitive... you know.... I don't like Lemons but its better than eating Worms.

Let's take a look at Super Street Fighter II Turbo, a game that people would put in the more "interesting" end of the spectrum (opposite Street Fighter V, which is on the other end). Super Turbo is far from the most balanced Street Fighter game. In fact, it's known some very lopsided match ups (e.g. Ryu vs Honda being 9:1 in Ryu's favor). The thing is however, this is because everyone in Super Turbo has distinct tools leading to a game where each character match up plays quote differently. This is what leads to the game's imbalance - the way match ups vary so much in that it's impossible to approach each character the same way.

Fighting Game's have come along way since SFII. While it might be interesting to have such a unique metagame... The fact that you could lose by selection is something that irritates people now a whole lot more than it did back then. Especially now that Street Fighter is not your only choice any more. Those who are willing to look will eventually discover that they can find an Interesting Games without sacrificing Balance in the Process. This raises the Standards... a game as unbalanced as SFII ST was just wouldn't do aswell today simply because players have other choices that don't require as much of a compromise.

Because "unbalanced" in limited doses is interesting.

Let's take a look at Super Street Fighter II Turbo, a game that people would put in the more "interesting" end of the spectrum (opposite Street Fighter V, which is on the other end). Super Turbo is far from the most balanced Street Fighter game. In fact, it's known some very lopsided match ups (e.g. Ryu vs Honda being 9:1 in Ryu's favor). The thing is however, this is because everyone in Super Turbo has distinct tools leading to a game where each character match up plays quote differently. This is what leads to the game's imbalance - the way match ups vary so much in that it's impossible to approach each character the same way.

Meter options do a similar thing, except that the imbalances are limited by the meter. Meter changes the way a match up has to be approached mid game, because the player now has to adapt to their opponent gaining more options with meter. This is on top of how their own meter also changes the match up.

Some more tools to "adapt" with would be nice. Defending against Meter'ed options generally requires the defending player to have meter themselves.... this is the case with Nadeshiko's Unblockable and Denjin's Block String Setups. If you got meter... you can counter... if not... you die. Not particularly interesting.

I do agree that some unbalances can make a game interesting but I don't believe that its 100% gauranteed. But doing it with meter is just kinda lazy... no wait... its straight up lazy. A better approach as I mentioned earlier would be increase the set of viable Options, both Defensively and Offensively. As it is right now while exchanging meter for more power seems "Interesting" its certainly not the right type of "Interesting"... its just: "I have more Power .... now sit there and block, mortal !!!" Which is only "Interesting" to people who like Power Tripping.



I think this disussion has been squeezed completely dry.... I can't imagine anything I can add add to it anymore.

I gues I can summarise my argument into a short phras....

Increase Options... not Power.

 

[d3v]

It's going nowhere because we keep going in circles. It all comes back to you saying that you don't like the fact that a player gains an advantage for doing certain things that reward them with a resource and more options (which is the point of meter).

 

[Lulu]

It's going nowhere because we keep going in circles. It all comes back to you saying that you don't like the fact that a player gains an advantage for doing certain things that reward them with a resource and more options (which is the point of meter).

Wrong... I simply don't like having to glance at the bottom of my screen every 3 seconds. But that's a different issue (look forward to me bitching about that one in the near future).

Perhaps we are going around in circles because of a simple lack of Clarity..... What do you mean by "Interesting" ?

BTW This reply was heavily reduced... you don't wana know how big of a tangent I went off on.