Ein for DOA5U

[TakedaZX]

So it's been said that, "Ein will play how he always did" by Team-Ninja. So yea... at first I thought this was great but then that thought also had me thinking, well now there isn't going to be any growth is there?

So if you could've seen changes (big changes), what would you have given him to his playstyle?

Personally after playing Jin in Tekken, JL in DOA (as well as Hitomi), and watching Jean from VF, I thought giving him a stance to cancel into would be nice.

It'd be more so a long the lines of something like Jin's crouching demon stance mixed with JL's Dragon Stance. Basically he gets a high option, mid option (two at that), and a low option.

Basically it'd be:
Stance P = High
Stance K = Mid Kick
Stance H+K or 2K = Low
Stance P+K = Mid Punch

The high option would basically be like Eliot's 7P, safe, frame advantage on NH and just a good stun on CH.

The mid punch will be a quick tech crouching launcher that resembles 9P and Zack's 33P/Hayabusa's Catch for the second part of his Ongyoin combo throw, you could even make some comparisons to Hitomi's 33P because he'll be looking down like she does.

The mid kick would be a knee, so basically at the most fluent input it may resemble Zack's 6KK at heart but the animation would be more so Rig's 6pk knee. So if you want to put double knees into the stun game, 6K~stance K. Stun would be deep. Also, If a move had to loop back into itself, or rather the stance itself, this would be that move. Very low launch at max threshold (Maybe 6KK, or 1K6PK follow up)

The low would be a sweep for true crushing, because assuming crushing is still ass in 5U, he'd need this. It'll work like all of his sweeps. Trip on NH I guess? Same on CH. HCH/In stun = KD. This option can probably be done without, but I just think it fits.

Actually the high seems like the move that can be done with out in this situation. I just imagined it as a stopper for those that want to press buttons/interrupt a free cancel mix-up.

The problem though is that there isn't really much place for the stance. 1K could use a low mix-up but doesn't need it. 66P/PP6P/1K6P all have a mid p, mid k, and low mix-up so transitioning there is pointless. 6K works because the only post 6K option is 6KK, which I guarantee you will not track. 3K works as well because while it has the can-cans (9KK/3KKK) as a follow up, you can't do much with those against SS except hope. I'd give it to 66KK, (though the stance high would feel very out of place). 6P would be awkward but could work. P+K could work, also allowing him to use stance uppercut as well right after. I like this idea alot mostly because I think P+K would be better as his CB than 6P+K.

So 6K, 3K, 1K/4PK, 6P (maybe), and P+K as well as 4P+K (I think was his charging GB) which could create wind dash syndrome with the cancelling but more so JL 1P+K style stuff.

Aside from the stance, as you now know, I'd rather see P+K as his CB and 6P+K returned to 14i so it can retain its spot as one of the best moves and whiff punishers in his arsenal. 1KK is something I always mention. At max threshold it should be a launcher that gives 4H+K, 1K6PK as a juggle like it used to. As of right now that doesn't seem like it's the case.

Other than, give me some safety and frame advantage on NH hit and I'll be solid, but frame advantage on NH + Frame Traps on guard is something that probably everyone deserves for catching someone not blocking at all and all or blocking too much.

I'd say more but it took me almost 2 hours to type this from my ps3.

I'm done.

 

[Zeo]

The stance is an interesting Idea I will say. P+K is the way to enter the stance I see working the most though I've been plugging that to be his CB for the longest. Also pretty much every other move you named except 6P. I could see him canceling 9P into stance honestly too. Kind of like a fakeout.

- The high attack I could see being used for pressure. A bit of frame advantage on block and even more on NH.

- I saw the mid punch more as a high crushing 3P but your Idea is probably better, being a launch would be great.

- The Mid kick actually I see as more of a SDS than a launch believe it or not. It would make opponents fear the stance and want to hold. Also opens up shenanagins for canceling the stance and doing 33T. The kick would look something more like Ein's 3K but more accurately Mila's 7K (the charge kick that guarantees CB). Unsafe on block however.

- I don't really see the low being needed but it could be there for tracking properties as the high or mid kick tracking would be too good.

- The P+K would obviously be a burst, no explanation needed there, I agree.

As far as advantage on block and NH. You've seen my chart, you already know where I stand. I'll plug in my own ideas for changes for Ein another time.

 

[TakedaZX]

Yea like for the options, when I thought about the high I was thinking like before frame advantage, "safety first". I'd love to see it as a frame trap on block or something that feels like GBoD, but isn't (like +2 on block or more, but nothing giving guaranteed damage).

As for the mid punch, yea I feel you on the 3P, in fact that was my first choice for it but I canned it because if you share my views on this as well, considering the possibility of it having a guard cancel to put him out of the stance quicker for more mix-up, he could set up 3P himself, probably unSEable cancels at that.

So I decided to think bigger. For one thing, he doesn't have really good mid punch launchers. 3P is good because it's very free to throw in. Deep stun and if you so happen to land it twice in a row or at max threshold, you get a solid juggle. 9P is his true mid punch launcher but to utilize it to it's fullest, you must cancel from BT into PP6PK or settle for 1K6PK. What does that leave... oh right, nothing.

So I thought, ok what can we do? Hitomi has 33P. Zack's 33P looks cool. Ryu's Ongyoin T combo throw looks similar and cool too... lets do this. So yea a true launcher could be nice.

The mid kick, I won't agree or argue. SD stun pressure is great don't get me wrong, but the knee lift stun was just what I had my sights set on for so long. Your idea is definitely good too though.

The low is tracking. Nothing more, nothing less.

A guard cancel would be very nice as well so he could get to neutral like Mila quickly to put in the Hokage

Yea 6P was very out of place but I dropped it in anyway. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Zeo]

Let's see here.

- Agreed on the high, nothing to really say.

- Same for mid punch

- Mid kick, either could work as both serve a particular purpose. The advantage of your version is that it could come out faster and mine would be of course the SDS.

- Low, yeah obvious.

Good frame traps could also involve making the stance moves put him back into stance unless you choose to put him in neutral. For example, his low tracking kick in stance could be faster than his 2H+K, so instead of using the high for frame advantage and going into 2H+K, you could do the high, go back into stance and do the stance low. It opens up possibilities for shenanigans. Obviously nothing like Rig's or others as it would lack a parry or throw, but a nice little addition to his pressure.

Again I have my own Ideas but once I collect them a bit better than I'll post them.

 

[TakedaZX]

Yea, my only issue is I can't think of a good way to get the stance out raw... or rather if it should be something to throw out raw. I mean he could 2P+K it so like a setup would be (Assuming he can CB in 3 and his max hits for threshold can be 4-5 with jabs counted as 1 hit... and like damaging attacks)
CH 6P+K, 6K2P+K~P (Possible Faint Stun?, 3P, P+K CB! 2P+K~P+K (Launch), 9P, BT 1K2P+K~K (significant relaunch properties), 6KK.

On the subject of juggles, I'd like if TN experimented with more ground bounces like from Kasumi's 66KK and Sarah's 4H+K (I think?), So possible setups for Ein could be like 6P+K, 3P, 3K, 1KK (Ground Bounce Launch), 4H+K, 1KK B! (Bound or Bounce), 9KK (for style). This is for everyone though, not just Einyate.

Possible B!'s: 1KK/4PKK, 8P, 4H+KK4K. He wouldn't have a lot but someone like Ko.ko would because so many strings go into 3KP/3K4K plus she has 2P+K from forward turn and BT. Thinking about it now, she doesn't have much either.

Also @Zeo I have another idea I had is charging the mid punch and mid kick. Uncharged for the punch will be unsafe and tech crouch frames. Charged you can extend the TC frames and get a +4 or more guard break. As for the kick, I was thinking it could be the same basic charge animation with the tech crouch but end wit the 3K type guard break SD stun on full charge only. That way were both pleased and Ein gets some more frame advantage and slightly more mix-up pressure.

The mid punch guard break can be done without though, especially if he has a gb/frame trap high punch. On the real thouh, speaking of putting the mid punch in other places, do you or does anyone for that matter like the properties of 66KKK. None of the hits stun except 66KK, and which isn't likely to be followed up on. Changing it to Hitomi's style would give it a bit more value imo but does anyone think it should stay as a launch. If not he could get the 66K stun and have a cancel into his stance straight from it, and then add 66KKP added using the stance punch animation and pose. Just an idea.

 

[Zeo]

The mid punch being a charge... I could see it only if it gave sizable advantage, like the high being +2 or so regularly but the mid punch being around +7 ~ 10+. If the mid kick has to charge for the SDS it should guarantee CB ala Mila 7K. Guard break can be reasonable, doesn't need to guarantee a followup.

66KKK would have to be changed for the stun as it was a natural combo in 4. It would be a nerf in a way because you don't get the whole thing guaranteed anymore but it would remove the situations where you land the first kick and don't followup and miss potential damage. I was thinking more of a finishing punch where he does 236P as his finisher but yours has more potential for a damaging followup.

I think it could use a low variant as well for variety, you could do something like 66K2KP so blocking players can't just hold the 2nd kick on reaction. Now you're starting to branch into some of the ideas I was having, I really need to collect my thoughts into a post.

 

[TakedaZX]

Yea the only problem I have is adding so much that Ein becomes Hitomi with a d--k. (i.e, heavy mix-up + better dmg). I thought about 66KK236P too and you're right, it would work actually. I just don't like it because of the lack off possible damage. It'd become more of a juggle ender if anything to get you opponent away from you (since 66KKK doesn't have much knockback).

I didn't say 66K2K(P) because I couldn't think of any sweep animation that was smooth like Hitomi's 66K2K... it'd look way too awkward for him to go straight into the tech crouch but I'm willing to work with it.

Regardless though, 66K does need improvements (as does Hayate's), because yes it's a NC but ANY combo you do with it can be exceed by putting 33K, PP6PK (for Hayate). Like 66P, 66KKK will never beat 66P, 33K, PP6PK. The only thing it will win on is distance covered and even then... you could probably bably pppp or pp2kp and still get better results (33K is also unSEable from 6P/66P, 66K is SEable).

The problem I'm having with the stance as well is 1K2P+K~ vs 1K6P2P+K~. 1K2P+K will give Ein a low option while keeping the roles of each height:
1K2P+K~P = 1K6P (High + Stun/Shallow Mid vs Low Mix-up)
1K2P+K~P+K = 1KP (Mid punch launcher)
1K2P+K~K = 1KK (Mid kick stun + SD stun)
1K2P+K~2K = XXX (Low option he lacks)

So basically at the cost of some frame advantage, he gets a stronger launch, posibbly better mid kick strun + CB guaranteeing SD stun, frame advantage high and a low option where he used to not have one til Hayate. Take a risk and gain a reward.

As for with 1K6P2P+K~, it's the nearly the opposite. It reverse the roles pretty much while giving him a high mix-up for blockers on top of it all.
1K6P2P+K~P+K = 1K6PP (Stun initially but stance chances it to a launcher instead)
1K6P2P+K~K = 1K6PK (KD initially but stance changes it to a launcher at max threshold and stun in general)
1K6P2P+K~2K = 1K6P2K (Staggers himself causing him to sweep in a different direction since he has to change from open to closed or vice versa (The transition in this situation is a step forward with his back foot into the ready position before throwing his mix-up.

I like the second situation (1K6P2P+K~) better. 6K and 3K are fine. P+K works fine. K could work fine or PK at that. He has no real high stuns outside of 66P and his jabs.

Also, should Ein get his 4PK to work like Hitomi's 8PK? (I.e 8PK6PK = 4PK6PK, but with his regular mid kick end.

Anyone else think 66PK should track? I think it should, cause I mean, he does rotate before kicking.

Anyway, looking forward to that post Zeo.

 

[Zeo]

I have a pretty good idea for 66K2KP but that's going into the ideas I have for Ein. It'll be in my next post.

Both ways of entering the stance serve pretty great purposes, only thing is 1K and 1K6P can't be supremely negative on NH because unless it takes away the fear from the stance if you can beat him out of it even after he hits you which they will unless the stance attacks are very fast. Probably around neutral or -1 ~ -2 would be good. + frames would open up silly shenanigans for 6P and retarded shenanigans for 1K.

Yes I was just talking to a friend of mine last night about 8P2K6PK, Ein should definitely get that string as it's basically just an enhanced version of his old string and adds variety and mixup potential as well as combo potential.

4P2K6PK, 4P2K6P2K, 4P2KK, 4P2KP and... another variant which goes into one of the new ideas I have for Ein. I'll be posting up my thoughts on new stuff for him in my next post, they're all but collected.

66PK should definitely track also. It's a slower and easier to counter version of Hayate's which tracks, it should as well.

 

[TakedaZX]

1K obviously needs to be safe (and Hayate needs it back) but the problem is because of certain animations, more natural combos would happen. It could probably get to the situation where 1K6P would be NC... but... yea anyway I wouldn't mind depleting the disadvantage on hit on a lot of these moves... in fact I wouldn't mind everyone getting more frame advantage on NH and safety on lows NH.

It's just 8pk/4pk. You don't have to worry about pressing 2 in that case because there's no other alternative to the kick. It's just more work otherwise.

@Zeo and I think @Tenryuga

I thought I heard you two talking about 6KK being a SD stun like Hayate's 3PP. Funny story, I was watching a video of bluefire501 vs TechRising (I'll link it/embed it) and actually it appeared that on NH (by itself) 6KK did SD stun assuming the knee missed or was blocked and then the opponent whacked buttons. On CH it still knocked down but... I don't think my eyes lie. Perhaps the opponent teched though.

(@ 1:16)

 

[Zeo]

Sorry this took longer than I wanted, but I finally collected my thoughts. My ideas for Ein are a great deal different than yours but rather than shifting his character it's more or less touching up moves, changing some things around and giving him a few tools that all subtly come together to change enhance him without making him DOA3 Hayate. So let's get started. This'll be a looooong read so prepare yourself.

1)- For starters, the first new move I thought he should get is a move listed on my chart. A variation of his BT 4K which is essentially Hitomi's 236K jump kick. His however is slower and only available at BT. I think he should be able to do the motion whenever he wants, same as her. He will however keep his original 6KKK. The motion for the kick I think either 214K or 16K should work (It's 214K on the chart so we'll use that here.).

It should be a tracking GB, Unholdable mid kick and +3 on block which sends the opponent flying on any hit. It also should crush lows as he's jumping into the air. Now before people throw "broken" out there. It's 23 frames as opposed to Hitomi's 18. Perfectly respectable and fairly slow, it's damage would be reasonable and it can't start the stun game.

2)- Next is a string enhancement I came up with. 4H+K leaves him at BT as you know, the next Idea is 4H+KK. A followup mid kick where he does a faster variant of his 3H+K which would crush lows and cause a ground bounce on hit with guaranteed followups.

The move would be unholdable as 3H+K used to be but unlike throwing out 3H+K raw, this move wouldn't be a + Frame GB on block but around -2 ~ -5 as well as leaving Ein at BT. This would leave Ein less free if 4H+K was blocked and give him a new potential threshold combo.

3)- This one is simple. His wall 33T remain the same as it is, except the ending is removed where he throws the opponent on the ground and instead he leaves them to land on their butt for a guaranteed mixup on wakeup with no wakeup kick ala Christie/Leifang/Bayman. Welcome to Ein's new nightmarish wall game.

4)- This one might be controversial but I had a lot of ideas for Ein here. A mid-high kick parry that gave him free stun game (something Like Gen Fu's parries/Akira's 16F+P), or caused a ground bounce, a Mid/High punch parry like Hitomi's but either of these made him feel less like Ein and more like other characters and I didn't want that. So I decided.

An advanced mid punch and mid kick hold for Ein. Same motion as Hayate for the kick (46H) and backwards for the punch (64H). Now, Ein is a character that has always specialized in power and strength unlike Hayate and Hitomi so his holds should look and feel like it. For the kick hold it should be a variation of his normal mid kick hold.



Grabbing them but rather than putting them into the ground himself he sort of throws their body into the ground causing a ground bounce allowing him to follow up with something like 3P > 6KK, 66KKK or with the new bound system maybe even something like 8P (Rebound) > 3P > 6KK. Danger room floor damage bonuses apply here.

The adv mid punch hold however would be a bit different from his normal one. Instead of putting you on the ground he instead grabs your arm and throws you over his shoulder and slams you into the ground for a ground bounce with potential followups like the kick hold. The animation would look very similar to this in particular if not exactly the same just from the front as he's catching your arm.

Again, danger room floors apply here. These holds would also cause your opponent to fall through the floor on stages like Temple of the Dragon, Home, etc.

5)- I'm going to be burned at the stake by Hayate players but. A "new" low string for Ein. Hayate's 1KK. They took it from Hayate, give it to Ein. It adds a quick option to his fairly slow low game for a good stun. Of course Ein already has a 1KK so the motion would have to be changed to 1K2K.

It could also open up some shenanigans if 1KK causes a SDS. Those trying to hold the low will get clipped by the mid kick SDS for a potential launch. This string in particular leads me into the next section.

6)- Enhanced 66KKK. Nerfed in a way as it's no longer a natural combo but it gives a deep stun on both NH and CH with new followups:

66KKP, the final hit being his 236P to send the opponent flying.
66K2KP, His initial kick leading into a deeper stun tech crouching variation of his 1K finishing with 236P.
66K2KK, The kick leads into essentially 1K2K, if the string is completed the 2nd low kick puts the opponent into a SDS. Doesn't guarantee CB but it will guarantee a 9P launch.

7)- This next one is pretty drastic. A new move Ein gets from BT. P+K . This causes Ein to turn around and do a high punch motion similar to 6P causing a slight relaunch allowing for example, better BT BnBs of 1KK > 4H+K or 9P launchers. Like Stun > Stun > 9P > BT P+K > 3P > PP6PK as opposed to the 1K6PK or turnaround PP6PK you'd be stuck with otherwise. Safe on block also.

8)- This move is the other new move that was on my FD chart, 214P. A new SDS mid punch from Ein which is essentially the finishing chop of 4PPP as a stand alone punch with a slightly different animation. This move would cause a SDS on NH as well as guaranteeing CB on threshold hit. It would however be a very slow 25 frames and neutral throw punishable.

9)- 9P2K. 9P low kick followup. Similar to Hayate's 4P2K. After he throws out 9P he goes for a low kick that causes him to face back forward. In addition it's made a bit safer to give him time to recover if he just throws out 9P and the opponent crouch blocks expecting the 2K. This one was kind of last minute. I had honestly ran out of ideas at this point.

10)- The most basic of changes. Turn 7P into a punch with parry properties like Eliot's (214P I think it is?) High and mid punches thrown during his windup are immediately parried and guarantee the 7P to hit.

So all the moves compiled.

- 214K
- 66KKK Followups
- 4H+KK
- Adv Mid Kick & Punch Holds
- 1K2K
- BT P+K
- 9P2K
- 7P Parry
- Wall 33T Buff

This didn't really change his whole moveset but gave him specific tools that make him a fair deal scarier. Combine this with his FD Chart changes I listed and you more or less have my ideal version of Ein.

 

[TakedaZX]

Sorry this took longer than I wanted, but I finally collected my thoughts. My ideas for Ein are a great deal different than yours but rather than shifting his character it's more or less touching up moves, changing some things around and giving him a few tools that all subtly come together to change enhance him without making him DOA3 Hayate. So let's get started. This'll be a looooong read so prepare yourself.
Like I said, nothing but time.

1)- For starters, the first new move I thought he should get is a move listed on my chart. A variation of his BT 4K which is essentially Hitomi's 236K jump kick. His however is slower and only available at BT. I think he should be able to do the motion whenever he wants, same as her. He will however keep his original 6KKK. The motion for the kick I think either 214K or 16K should work (It's 214K on the chart so we'll use that here.).

It should be a tracking GB, Unholdable mid kick and +3 on block which sends the opponent flying on any hit. It also should crush lows as he's jumping into the air. Now before people throw "broken" out there. It's 23 frames as opposed to Hitomi's 18. Perfectly respectable and fairly slow, it's damage would be reasonable and it can't start the stun game.
We talked about this just now but I just think this move asks for a little too much respect. Not only is it a tech jump, but it tracks, and it's a mid. What's more is it's not just safe on block but frame advantage. This takes Infinite Lights description of Hitomi's as the unbeatable kick and literally makes it an unbeatable kick. The cost is speed but even still...

Make it high, maybe, but it still can't track but frame advantage isn't a bad idea especially if 23 frames is the speed. That's where things become reactable.

2)- Next is a string enhancement I came up with. 4H+K leaves him at BT as you know, the next Idea is 4H+KK. A followup mid kick where he does a faster variant of his 2H+K which would crush lows and cause a ground bounce on hit with guaranteed followups.

The move would be unholdable as 2H+K used to be but unlike throwing out 2H+K raw, this move wouldn't be a + Frame GB on block but around -2 ~ -5 as well as leaving Ein at BT. This would leave Ein less free if 4H+K was blocked and give him a new potential threshold combo.
This one sounds very cool. I think you meant 3H+K though for the falling over mid kick like Hitomi's that leaves him in BT.

3)- This one is simple. His wall 33T remain the same as it is, except the ending is removed where he throws the opponent on the ground and instead he leaves them to land on their butt for a guaranteed mixup on wakeup with no wakeup kick ala Christie/Leifang/Bayman. Welcome to Ein's new nightmarish wall game.
I'll see you on this. There'd definitely have to be damage comparisons made though. Leifangs Wall 66T, Christies Wall 6T, Bayman's Wall Throw. We don't want to overpower Ein, we just want em to be good, but yes this would be the throw for sure.

4)- This one might be controversial but I had a lot of ideas for Ein here. A mid-high kick parry that gave him free stun game (something Like Gen Fu's parries/Akira's 16F+P), or caused a ground bounce, a Mid/High punch parry like Hitomi's but either of these made him feel less like Ein and more like other characters and I didn't want that. So I decided.

An advanced mid punch and mid kick hold for Ein. Same motion as Hayate for the kick (46H) and backwards for the punch (64H). Now, Ein is a character that has always specialized in power and strength unlike Hayate and Hitomi so his holds should look and feel like it. For the kick hold it should be a variation of his normal mid kick hold.



Grabbing them but rather than putting them into the ground himself he sort of throws their body into the follow up with something like 3P > 6KK, 66KKK or with the new bound system maybe even something like 8P (Rebound) > 3P > 6KK. Danger room floor damage bonuses apply here.

The adv mid punch hold however would be a bit different from his normal one. Instead of putting you on the ground he instead grabs your arm and throws you over his shoulder and slams you into the ground for a ground bounce with potential followups like the kick hold. The animation would look very similar to this in particular if not exactly the same just from the front as he's catching your arm.

View attachment 2347

Again, danger room floors apply here. These holds would also cause your opponent to fall through the floor on stages like Temple of the Dragon, Home, etc.
I can see the mid punch hold being that.

As for the mid kick hold, everytime I see that animation, I imagine Bayman's Mid Parry on a kick (Grabs their leg then hits them with a "low blow", allowing him frame advantage). Ein could get something all the same but idk. It's tough.

I agree he should have some advanced holds though.
5)- I'm going to be burned at the stake by Hayate players but. A "new" low string for Ein. Hayate's 1KK. They took it from Hayate, give it to Ein. It adds a quick option to his fairly slow low game for a good stun. Of course Ein already has a 1KK so the motion would have to be changed to 1K2K.

It could also open up some shenanigans if 1KK causes a SDS. Those trying to hold the low will get clipped by the mid kick SDS for a potential launch. This string in particular leads me into the next section.
I can see why you and the other Ein players would want this. Only reason I'd go against it is because if Hayate got his 1KP and 1KK back, I'd feel cheated (even though I play Ein). With my stance idea it kinda involves him wasting frame advantage and frame trap situations (string trap anyway) with his other moves. With this, it puts him straight into it so you kinda have to respect everything. You also said you want 66P to track but, Hitomi's doesn't so sidestepping is not an option here, period.

But I digress, I think a tracking low would be in order some how. If this is the only way they can do it... fine... but like I said 1K6P cannot track as well.

6)- Enhanced 66KKK. Nerfed in a way as it's no longer a natural combo but it gives a deep stun on both NH and CH with new followups:

66KKP, the final hit being his 236P to send the opponent flying.
66K2KP, His initial kick leading into a deeper stun tech crouching variation of his 1K finishing with 236P.
66K2KK, The kick leads into essentially 1K2K, if the string is completed the 2nd low kick puts the opponent into a SDS. Doesn't guarantee CB but it will guarantee a 9P launch.
I viewed this idea wrong when you said 66K2KP eariler in the topic. I like this combination a lot.

66KKP we talked about. While I like 66KK236P as an idea, I would like to see an uppercut for potential damage... but given the other options, 236P wouldn't be too bad as an ender. It's up in the air at this moment.

66K2KP is definitely ok as is.

66K2KK and there's you're tracking low, but... problem. No lows SD stun in the game... and it's for a reason. Cause they're lows. A trip stun will suffice, trust me.

Hayate's 1P trip stuns in the stun game and on Hi-Counter hit. Trip stuns have unholdable frames. This means that if the opponent holds as fast as they can they might put themselves in a worse situation. That being said they can hold the follow ups. If we make this low sweep just stun like 1P, that means that Ein can 4K or 9P as a holdable 50/50 but unSEable mix-up. So there's your pressure and your launch 50/50 without making it too good. Also for launching them out of the trip (without them holding, you get the increased launch height)

Now, my issue is, now we've stepped into the territory where were getting more mix-up than Hitomi.

Hitomi can do some dumb stuff off of her 66K2K (I'll tell you about it later), but yea we've now stepped into a territory that I'm not sure if Ein is supposed to advance to.

7)- This next one is pretty drastic. A new move Ein gets from BT. P+K . This causes Ein to turn around and do a high punch motion similar to 6P causing a slight relaunch allowing for example, better BT BnBs of 1KK > 4H+K or 9P launchers. Like Stun > Stun > 9P > BT P+K > 3P > PP6PK as opposed to the 1K6PK or turnaround PP6PK you'd be stuck with otherwise. Safe on block also.

Even scrapping BT P all together would work in this case. It's a cool idea though overall.

8)- This move is the other new move that was on my FD chart, 214P. A new SDS mid punch from Ein which is essentially the finishing chop of 4PPP as a stand alone punch with a slightly different animation. This move would cause a SDS on NH as well as guaranteeing CB on threshold hit. It would however be a very slow 25 frames and neutral throw punishable.

Cool. No other comment really.

9)- 9P2K. 9P low kick followup. Similar to Hayate's 4P2K. After he throws out 9P he goes for a low kick that causes him to face back forward. In addition it's made a bit safer to give him time to recover if he just throws out 9P and the opponent crouch blocks expecting the 2K. This one was kind of last minute. I had honestly ran out of ideas at this point.

-Shrugs- Well 9PK is pretty useless. It makes sense to add this. Problem is on an unexpected CH+ launch you'll probably lose a juggle completely.

10)- The most basic of changes. Turn 7P into a punch with parry properties like Eliot's (214P I think it is?) High and mid punches thrown during his windup are immediately parried and guarantee the 7P to hit.

Also reminds me of Jin except his puts them in a stunned state.

So all the moves compiled.

- 214K
- 66KKK Followups
- 4H+KK
- Adv Mid Kick & Punch Holds
- 1K2K
- BT P+K
- 9P2K
- 7P Parry
- Wall 33T Buff

This didn't really change his whole moveset but game him specific tools that make him a fair deal scarier. Combine this with his FD Chart changes I listed and you more or less have my ideal version of Ein.

 

[U_C_A_F]

These are some good suggestions but too bad you guys are only setting yourselves up for disappointment when not even a fraction of these changes happen. TN has always been directly porting him from game to game with no new moves added and only tweaks to move properties.

 

[Zeo]

We talked about this just now but I just think this move asks for a little too much respect. Not only is it a tech jump, but it tracks, and it's a mid. What's more is it's not just safe on block but frame advantage. This takes Infinite Lights description of Hitomi's as the unbeatable kick and literally makes it an unbeatable kick. The cost is speed but even still...

Make it high, maybe, but it still can't track but frame advantage isn't a bad idea especially if 23 frames is the speed. That's where things become reactable.

I felt the speed made up for all the advantages, particularly against fast characters like Kasumi, Christie etc. But if the tracking were to be removed at least 2 or 3 frames would have to be shaved off of the startup. It's simply too slow of a move to be able to be sidestepped. If it were going to be a high attack it would either need to keep the tracking or give more than +3 on block on top of the speed increase. It should be unholdable in any situation though, period.

The BT variant however should remain "unbeatable" as you said this was. If you're letting Ein throw out an attack that slow while he's at BT, you deserve to be at disadvantage.

This one sounds very cool. I think you meant 3H+K though for the falling over mid kick like Hitomi's that leaves him in BT.

Yeah I meant 3H+K, my bad. Post corrected and fixed.

I'll see you on this. There'd definitely have to be damage comparisons made though. Leifangs Wall 66T, Christies Wall 6T, Bayman's Wall Throw. We don't want to overpower Ein, we just want em to be good, but yes this would be the throw for sure.

Leifang has a regular throw variant of the wall grab that does more damage than her OH version. Ein's damage should be scaled back a little bit but not too much is needed.

I can see why you and the other Ein players would want this. Only reason I'd go against it is because if Hayate got his 1KP and 1KK back, I'd feel cheated (even though I play Ein). With my stance idea it kinda involves him wasting frame advantage and frame trap situations (string trap anyway) with his other moves. With this, it puts him straight into it so you kinda have to respect everything. You also said you want 66P to track but, Hitomi's doesn't so sidestepping is not an option here, period.

But I digress, I think a tracking low would be in order some how. If this is the only way they can do it... fine... but like I said 1K6P cannot track as well.

He still has his 1KK and 1KP variants if people want to step him. 1K2K and 1K6P both tracking would be a bit strong but plenty of characters have very strong tracking moves. Plus 1K6P wouldn't cause a very deep stun. I think Ein could get away with having this. At worst take away the tracking from 1K6P. He could still just finish the string with 1K6PK and snuff the step anyway.

I viewed this idea wrong when you said 66K2KP eariler in the topic. I like this combination a lot.

66KKP we talked about. While I like 66KK236P as an idea, I would like to see an uppercut for potential damage... but given the other options, 236P wouldn't be too bad as an ender. It's up in the air at this moment.

66K2KP is definitely ok as is.

66K2KK and there's you're tracking low, but... problem. No lows SD stun in the game... and it's for a reason. Cause they're lows. A trip stun will suffice, trust me.

Hayate's 1P trip stuns in the stun game and on Hi-Counter hit. Trip stuns have unholdable frames. This means that if the opponent holds as fast as they can they might put themselves in a worse situation. That being said they can hold the follow ups. If we make this low sweep just stun like 1P, that means that Ein can 4K or 9P as a holdable 50/50 but unSEable mix-up. So there's your pressure and your launch 50/50 without making it too good. Also for launching them out of the trip (without them holding, you get the increased launch height)

Now, my issue is, now we've stepped into the territory where were getting more mix-up than Hitomi.

Hitomi can do some dumb stuff off of her 66K2K (I'll tell you about it later), but yea we've now stepped into a territory that I'm not sure if Ein is supposed to advance to.

66KKP could benefit from a launching punch but the launch would probably be slower and easier to hold, plus with the 236P finisher you get the bonus of sending the opponent into a wall and potentially getting a wall combo followup. I think I'll stand by this finisher. That and a launcher would basically make it the same as Hitomi's.

66K2KP agrred.

As for 66K2KK agreed on the trip stun though I would like at least 3P or 3K to be guaranteed but that would be a bit too good I'll admit. Your idea is definitely better. As for him vs Hitomi I don't think this makes him exceed her as she still has better mixups in other areas and still has her 6F+P as well to keep pressure.

I can see the mid punch hold being that.

As for the mid kick hold, everytime I see that animation, I imagine Bayman's Mid Parry on a kick (Grabs their leg then hits them with a "low blow", allowing him frame advantage). Ein could get something all the same but idk. It's tough.

I agree he should have some advanced holds though.

I wasn't sure what to use for his mid kick hold actually. Maybe something like Tengu's low kick hold where he grabs their leg and slams them into the ground only once and it causing a bounce, but I wasn't sure so I went for a simpler approach. I'm honestly open to ideas.

Even scrapping BT P all together would work in this case. It's a cool idea though overall.

True, but this gives more damage potential as well.

-Shrugs- Well 9PK is pretty useless. It makes sense to add this. Problem is on an unexpected CH+ launch you'll probably lose a juggle completely.

I was grasping for straws at this point, honestly. But I thought it was a reasonable enough addition.

Also reminds me of Jin except his puts them in a stunned state.

A stun state would be a little too good with it's damage. But it gives great blowback and you could probably combo off of the wall slam. And on counter "hold" as well as strike you could potentially get a lot of damage off of the conversion into a wall combo.

These are some good suggestions but too bad you guys are only setting yourselves up for disappointment when not even a fraction of these changes happen. TN has always been directly porting him from game to game with no new moves added and only tweaks to move properties.

We already know they're going to make him basically the same as before but this topic was made for you to voice your thoughts on what you'd want to change for the better if they decided to change him. There's already another topic in this section covering my thoughts on what they should change for the port Ein that we know we're getting.

 

[TakedaZX]

These are some good suggestions but too bad you guys are only setting yourselves up for disappointment when not even a fraction of these changes happen. TN has always been directly porting him from game to game with no new moves added and only tweaks to move properties.

So it's BEEN SAID that, "Ein will play how he always did" by Team-Ninja. So yea... at first I thought this was great but then that thought also had me thinking, well now there isn't going to be any growth is there?

So if you COULD'VE seen changes (big changes), what WOULD you have given him?

Post like this one truly annoy me UCAF. Clearly I stated in my original post that I was well aware of the exact thing you commented on and Zeo, who obviously read MY post and has also been aware of DOA5 Ein's development, knew the same thing.

They say a man can dream, and were doing just that.

I do thank you for the support on our ideas but, just pay attention please. I've got a very short tolerance to these kinds of things.

How about you dream up some cool ideas for Eliot, since those ones actually could happen?

Anyway @Zeo

I felt the speed made up for all the advantages, particularly against fast characters like Kasumi, Christie etc. But if the tracking were to be removed at least 2 or 3 frames would have to be shaved off of the startup. It's simply too slow of a move to be able to be sidestepped. If it were going to be a high attack it would either need to keep the tracking or give more than +3 on block on top of the speed increase. It should be unholdable in any situation though, period.
But the thing is with how you have it built, the kick is better than Rig, Eliot, JL, and Hitomi's 236K's, even Hayate's even though it's not a Dragon Kick like theirs.
They all have uniqueness but this one asks for having more advantages than the moves have faults.
So being a mid isn't necessarily out of the question but it's a problem. As a mid, you're not tech jumping this (truly) or tech crouching it, in fact unless you have a super jump move (Hayate 214P, Ryu 6KP, etc.), you are not going to avoid this attack head on. Brad's 1K tech crouches mids, if he WERE able to tech crouch this kick though, he'd most likely fail because like they dragon kick, Ein would fly over Brad and Brad would miss because only his lows are that evasive on reaction.
Give it tracking and the only thing the opponent can do is BLOCK or whack buttons in hope of jabbing this out. It's too good.
But... even more importantly, a jumping kick like that with tracking is very unrealistic. It's unrealistic when the Dragon Kick retracks to someone when they sidestep to early, and it's unrealistic when Hitomi clips you because of the same reason. There's like no reason to give it true tracking, especially if it'll tech jump too.
The only jumping moves that make sense tracking are ones like... fuckin 66KK for Ayane. It's a full 360 kick but it doesn't defy the laws of physics and trajectory. That's what we have to aim for here.
I'll definitely take the guard break and I'd even take it being mid, but it can't be a mid and track and it can't be a high and track (realistically). Speed doesn't matter to me. If it's coming out raw you could probably give it a slight wind up like Rig and JL (little run forward) but he doesn't need a homing missle kick.
The BT variant however should remain "unbeatable" as you said this was. If you're letting Ein throw out an attack that slow while he's at BT, you deserve to be at disadvantage.
Yea, a good tech jump for people that love to 2p you after 4H+K and 9P. I could see that going to BT 7K and making BT 4K go into his 66PK to track, SD stun, and be a real mid. On the low side though, he'd be a bit more like Hayate at this point on BT... but... oh well they're similar. He should be the middle ground between Hitomi and Hayate.
Yeah I meant 3H+K, my bad. Post corrected and fixed.
Cool.
Leifang has a regular throw variant of the wall grab that does more damage than her OH version. Ein's damage should be scaled back a little bit but not too much is needed.
Yea, it's just the OH feels more powerful than it probably is since generally people want to whack buttons out of it after getting caught because they know it's coming again at some point...
He still has his 1KK and 1KP variants if people want to step him. 1K2K and 1K6P both tracking would be a bit strong but plenty of characters have very strong tracking moves. Plus 1K6P wouldn't cause a very deep stun. I think Ein could get away with having this. At worst take away the tracking from 1K6P. He could still just finish the string with 1K6PK and snuff the step anyway.
Plenty do but lets be seriously honest: Hitomi does get by without her 1K6P tracking. It wouldn't hurt him much either, I'll take it but it's not something I'm concerned with it being changed. I do want to see 1K2K though, because it can check step right then and there.
66KKP could benefit from a launching punch but the launch would probably be slower and easier to hold, plus with the 236P finisher you get the bonus of sending the opponent into a wall and potentially getting a wall combo followup. I think I'll stand by this finisher. That and a launcher would basically make it the same as Hitomi's.
Well the speed issue depends on how smooth or rough they want the transition to be from the second kick to the punch. The reality is that 66KKP would wall splat as a launcher as well too. Also the punch that I was thinking of looks to work like Zack's but it actually wouldn't leave Ein in BT. This way he can follow up with regular juggles unless he got actual good BT strikes to work with.
My issue isn't being closer to Hitomi's style though, it's matching her completely in every aspect and/or surpassing her in too many aspects. The 66K~ mix-ups are sliding into that category but... I'm less worried about this since the properties are so different on the moves.
66K2KP agrred.
As for 66K2KK agreed on the trip stun though I would like at least 3P or 3K to be guaranteed but that would be a bit too good I'll admit. Your idea is definitely better. As for him vs Hitomi I don't think this makes him exceed her as she still has better mix-ups in other areas and still has her 6F+P as well to keep pressure.
That's true (PP~, P6P~, K~, 3K~, 7P~, 6P~, 4K~ and she's getting more mix-ups in DOA5U). So yea I can see these moves coming in. Loading him up with mix-ups could be bad though. That's why I decided to stick with the Jin style stuff with the stance idea. It's a mix-up opportunity but you recognize the motions from the movement and remember what the possibilities are then you block, side step, or avoid it however you find necessary.
I wasn't sure what to use for his mid kick hold actually. Maybe something like Tengu's low kick hold where he grabs their leg and slams them into the ground only once and it causing a bounce, but I wasn't sure so I went for a simpler approach. I'm honestly open to ideas.
Since I just said it, I'll explain something. I refer to Jin a lot (as well as Jean from VF sometimes) because some of the stuff you see with these characters really seems to be traditional Karate. That being said here's a video for some of the stuff I'll call out:

Well like I said. For the punch hold I could see him grabbing their arm, then swing them above and around himself before slamming them to the ground and following up after the ground bounce or bound situation. (This would be basically 2:28 in the video).
For the kick, I can imagine it being him grabbing the leg of the opponent and hitting them with a double high kicks where after he could hit the opponent with a sit down stunning kick for a free hit to work with, or following up with a barrage of hits after he lets down their foot... but doing it all Karate like: (0:47 Left side to stinger for the double high kicks, and for the Barrage, something like 1:37, Kazama 6 hit combo). You see barrages like that all the time in Karate videos and Ein wouldn't be the first character to do something like that, nor would Jin.
True, but this gives more damage potential as well.
I just bring up BT P because it's kind of useless. The damage off of it in a juggle isn't good and Ein doesn't really play hardcore BT shenanigans anyway so it's a waste. He's not Ayane, Helena or Brad. He's not even Hayate. They should scrap it so PP6PK can come easier.
I was grasping for straws at this point, honestly. But I thought it was a reasonable enough addition.
A stun state would be a little too good with it's damage. But it gives great blowback and you could probably combo off of the wall slam. And on counter "hold" as well as strike you could potentially get a lot of damage off of the conversion into a wall combo.
I was just calling out the similarities. As you said, it wouldn't need a stun.

 

[Zeo]

Checked this before, hadn't realized you'd replied to my post too. Let's see here.

But the thing is with how you have it built, the kick is better than Rig, Eliot, JL, and Hitomi's 236K's, even Hayate's even though it's not a Dragon Kick like theirs.
They all have uniqueness but this one asks for having more advantages than the moves have faults.
So being a mid isn't necessarily out of the question but it's a problem. As a mid, you're not tech jumping this (truly) or tech crouching it, in fact unless you have a super jump move (Hayate 214P, Ryu 6KP, etc.), you are not going to avoid this attack head on. Brad's 1K tech crouches mids, if he WERE able to tech crouch this kick though, he'd most likely fail because like they dragon kick, Ein would fly over Brad and Brad would miss because only his lows are that evasive on reaction.

Give it tracking and the only thing the opponent can do is BLOCK or whack buttons in hope of jabbing this out.
It's too good.

But... even more importantly, a jumping kick like that with tracking is very unrealistic. It's unrealistic when the Dragon Kick retracks to someone when they sidestep to early, and it's unrealistic when Hitomi clips you because of the same reason. There's like no reason to give it true tracking, especially if it'll tech jump too.
The only jumping moves that make sense tracking are ones like... fuckin 66KK for Ayane. It's a full 360 kick but it doesn't defy the laws of physics and trajectory. That's what we have to aim for here.
I'll definitely take the guard break and I'd even take it being mid, but it can't be a mid and track and it can't be a high and track (realistically). Speed doesn't matter to me. If it's coming out raw you could probably give it a slight wind up like Rig and JL (little run forward) but he doesn't need a homing missle kick.

I can settle on this one actually. Take away the tracking for it as a mid. Otherwise make it a non tracking high but bump the advantage on it up by 1~2 frames and take 2~3 frames off it's 23 frame startup. Either would work for me.

Yea, a good tech jump for people that love to 2p you after 4H+K and 9P. I could see that going to BT 7K and making BT 4K go into his 66PK to track, SD stun, and be a real mid. On the low side though, he'd be a bit more like Hayate at this point on BT... but... oh well they're similar. He should be the middle ground between Hitomi and Hayate.

Cool, I could definitely get behind this. This basically renders his BT 4P absolutely useless but that could be rectified by guaranteeing a followup on it's guard break. That's something neither Hitomi or Hayate have. Ein does put a lot more emphasis on power.

Yea, it's just the OH feels more powerful than it probably is since generally people want to whack buttons out of it after getting caught because they know it's coming again at some point...

Ein's wall game would be scarier but at the same time weaker as his wall grab wouldn't be an OH. Without the properties of an OH or the speed of Lei/Christie's regular wall throws he's left with a 12 frame wall throw that can be mashed out of. This more or less makes it's damage fair, but with some of the tools I want for Ein creates a very scary guard break game he can play at the wall which would allow him to keep pressure until they eventually escape from the wall.

Plenty do but lets be seriously honest: Hitomi does get by without her 1K6P tracking. It wouldn't hurt him much either, I'll take it but it's not something I'm concerned with it being changed. I do want to see 1K2K though, because it can check step right then and there.

I can settle on this. If Hitomi's 1K6P doesn't track it would be unfair if Ein's did. Though I've always supported that move tracking period. All the same 1K2K would eliminate any real need for it to as Ein (and Hayate potentially) would have a legit answer to steppers in that string. As well as a slightly deeper mixup game.

Well the speed issue depends on how smooth or rough they want the transition to be from the second kick to the punch. The reality is that 66KKP would wall splat as a launcher as well too. Also the punch that I was thinking of looks to work like Zack's but it actually wouldn't leave Ein in BT. This way he can follow up with regular juggles unless he got actual good BT strikes to work with.

My issue isn't being closer to Hitomi's style though, it's matching her completely in every aspect and/or surpassing her in too many aspects. The 66K~ mix-ups are sliding into that category but... I'm less worried about this since the properties are so different on the moves.

I envision the transition to his 66KKP (and 662KP for that matter) to be nearly as seemless as Hayate's PP2KP, as such Hitomi and Zack's uppercuts have a windup that is much easier to react to even if it does have a bigger payoff, the name of Ein's game has always been to get you closer to that wall. Plus that would warrant it being safer. Which I imagine it would be -7 ~ -9 on block.

I wouldn't worry about him beating Hitomi out in mixups off this alone, it would definitely make him scarier than her near walls however. But that's always been a bit part of Ein's gameplan so nothing really changes there.

That's true (PP~, P6P~, K~, 3K~, 7P~, 6P~, 4K~ and she's getting more mix-ups in DOA5U). So yea I can see these moves coming in. Loading him up with mix-ups could be bad though. That's why I decided to stick with the Jin style stuff with the stance idea. It's a mix-up opportunity but you recognize the motions from the movement and remember what the possibilities are then you block, side step, or avoid it however you find necessary.

I can understand taking that approach too. My options would more or less put Ein's mixups more or par with other characters to begin with however. That's how I see it anyway. I don't feel a stance alone would add enough to his pressure game. Rig for example can be stepped out of nearly all of his stance attacks and if you expect him to crush a step you can just use your fastest mid to beat out one of his fairly slow 2 tracking stance moves. Even still he has a + frame throw, guard breaks into guarantees and tracking mids, none of which Ein would have.

The idea is still a good one but I don't feel it would be enough for him to "catch up" with the other characters in 5U's new system. Combine it with better frames though and I could definitely be wrong as Ein could be solid off frames and move properties alone, at that point the stance or even the new stuff I came up with would just be icing on the cake.

Since I just said it, I'll explain something. I refer to Jin a lot (as well as Jean from VF sometimes) because some of the stuff you see with these characters really seems to be traditional Karate. That being said here's a video for some of the stuff I'll call out:

Well like I said. For the punch hold I could see him grabbing their arm, then swing them above and around himself before slamming them to the ground and following up after the ground bounce or bound situation. (This would be basically 2:28 in the video).

I could see that too, it's similar to what I posted but I feel something just a bit closer to the latter would be a better representation of Ein's slightly more power based variation of Karate.

For the kick, I can imagine it being him grabbing the leg of the opponent and hitting them with a double high kicks where after he could hit the opponent with a sit down stunning kick for a free hit to work with, or following up with a barrage of hits after he lets down their foot... but doing it all Karate like: (0:47 Left side to stinger for the double high kicks, and for the Barrage, something like 1:37, Kazama 6 hit combo). You see barrages like that all the time in Karate videos and Ein wouldn't be the first character to do something like that, nor would Jin.

That was definitely a different idea from mine. Particularly the sit down property on the hold. I could get behind this too, helps that Jin is my favorite Tekken character.

I just bring up BT P because it's kind of useless. The damage off of it in a juggle isn't good and Ein doesn't really play hardcore BT shenanigans anyway so it's a waste. He's not Ayane, Helena or Brad. He's not even Hayate. They should scrap it so PP6PK can come easier.

I've caught people with it once or twice, still not a great move and it just nerfs his BT juggles though so yeah, agreed.

@Zeo and I think @Tenryuga

I thought I heard you two talking about 6KK being a SD stun like Hayate's 3PP. Funny story, I was watching a video of bluefire501 vs TechRising (I'll link it/embed it) and actually it appeared that on NH (by itself) 6KK did SD stun assuming the knee missed or was blocked and then the opponent whacked buttons. On CH it still knocked down but... I don't think my eyes lie. Perhaps the opponent teched though.

I actually remember that, though in 5U I wouldn't see it being too useful if the only 2nd hit only Sat down on NH, few would expect it to and even less would be able to react and convert off of it. The way we invisioned it would be to act basically the same as Hayate's 3PP which would end up being too strong as 66KK is a faster move and Ein's damage > Hayate's. I'd take anything over an unsafe techable knockdown double mid kick though... which I feel is what we'll be getting.

 

[TakedaZX]

@Zeo well, yea I mean I like the SD stun idea a lot. I'd like the barrage thing to be some sort of option too though, even if it means that you can get good damage from doing just 46H, but if you do 46H~H, which stops him at the double high kicks and makes the 3rd hit in the hold the SD stun 3K instead of the barrage intiation, making him give up the possible damage guaranteed for a slightly less damaging free hit, mix-up.

The stance is definitely something strange to work with though... I'm gunna have to mess around with the options.

 

[XZero264]

His 6P+K is a real bitch to use right now, 19-20 frames. Slow as hell.

 

[TakedaZX]

We expected as much. How about 4K, is it really 16i?

 

[XZero264]

Seemed kind of slow. Didn't see the frames but is a decent launcher.

 

[TakedaZX]

Seemed kind of slow. Didn't see the frames but is a decent launcher.

Yea, it might be decent... but unless it outshines 33K, that move is pointless except for its some what misleading range.... at 13i in DOA4 it demanded respect and while not as powerful as 33K, it did its job... now it's just kinda... there.