lol no worries ... its all part of the lab work fun ..
..if I find anything else ill be sure to post it ..
all this trial and error is driving me mad to be honest .. I really wish they put a training mode in the alpha demo.. >___>
DOA5α Hold Frame Data
- Thread starter grap3fruitman
- Start date
lol no worries ... its all part of the lab work fun ..
..if I find anything else ill be sure to post it ..
all this trial and error is driving me mad to be honest .. I really wish they put a training mode in the alpha demo.. >___>
@ Emperor and @pheonix, the Game tells you its not on OH, Just FYI (You can also disable dangerzones, not slowescape certain stuns at all and stuns that dont let you hold are also in there. I mention this because i never see anyone mention it).lol no worries ... its all part of the lab work fun ..
if I find anything else ill be sure to post it ..
all this trial and error is driving me mad to be honest .. I really wish they put a training mode in the alpha demo.. >___>
MASTER
SkatanMilla
Member
If you are afraid of the hold, stop pressing buttons.
Getting someone in a stun doesn't equal to you getting guaranteed damage, even though almost everyone is under the impression that's how it's "supposed" to be.
I remember with Kokoro for example I could stun with 66P, then sidestep and do 22P to hit them in the back if they tried to do a hold/slow escape into a mid cruch move.
Another technique that some players, like Offbeat for example, used to use Ein's 3P for a deep stun, then go for a 5f throw or a low throw, and if someone countered or slow escaped they would still recover eariler and could keep the pressure going.
There is more to the stun system than just forcing a mid/throw guess, and whoever guesses right gets the same payoff. You just have to get a bit more creative with it.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
Thats not how fighting games work. There needs to be some form of control. Being constantly thrown into a guessing game is not fun.
And therein lies the flaw of DOA: you're always reluctant to attack because of the hold and everything being disadvantage on block.
Skilletor
Active Member
Yeah, it's silly to think that, since you fucked up, I shouldn't get damage against you.
Truth.
SkatanMilla
Member
Let's review the options of the stun system for a bit.
Person in stun is likely to use these options:
High hold (in expectation of high launcher)
Beats 1 option, can be punished reactively
Mid hold (in expectation of launcher)
Beats 1 option, can be punished reactively
Low hold (to recover faster/avoid high launchers)
Beats 2 options, can be punished reactively
Slow escape (to avoid slow launchers/getting thrown)
Beats 2 options, lose to fast launchers and stun extenders
These are the only things that they are capable of doing during critical state, even if they slow escape out of it their options remain very limited due to being in heavy frame disadvantage, most commonly people used block or mid crush afterwards.
Person out of stun:
High launcher (in expectation of mid hold/slow escape)
Beats 2 options, loses to 2
Mid launcher (in expectation of slow escape/low hold)
Beats 2 options, loses to 1
Early 5f throw (punishes high/mid holds, recovers before slow escape/low hold)
Beats 2 options, loses to none, keeps momentum
Early low throw (punishes low holds, recovers before slow escape/mid/high hold)
Beats 1 option, loses to none, keeps momentum
Early 7f throw (punishes mid/high holds, recovers in disadvantage from slow escape/low hold)
Beats 2 options, loses to none, oppnent has advantage if whiffed
Buffered 12f throw (punishes mid/high holds on reaction, low hold unavailable to punish low holds, keeps advantage against slow escape)
Beats 2 options, unable to punish 1, keeps advantage
Wait (punishes holds on reaction, advantage against slow escape attempts)
Beats 3 options, advantage against remaining option
As anyone can see from looking at this quick breakdown, not only does the attacker have more options at disposal, but a lot of them are completely safe and beat more options than what the player in critical state does.
Very interesting!
-
The fact is still what I was saying before, most people don't know how to utilize the stun system to their favour, but some players did. This is why a few players were much more successful than the rest of them.
Person in stun is likely to use these options:
High hold (in expectation of high launcher)
Beats 1 option, can be punished reactively
Mid hold (in expectation of launcher)
Beats 1 option, can be punished reactively
Low hold (to recover faster/avoid high launchers)
Beats 2 options, can be punished reactively
Slow escape (to avoid slow launchers/getting thrown)
Beats 2 options, lose to fast launchers and stun extenders
These are the only things that they are capable of doing during critical state, even if they slow escape out of it their options remain very limited due to being in heavy frame disadvantage, most commonly people used block or mid crush afterwards.
Person out of stun:
High launcher (in expectation of mid hold/slow escape)
Beats 2 options, loses to 2
Mid launcher (in expectation of slow escape/low hold)
Beats 2 options, loses to 1
Early 5f throw (punishes high/mid holds, recovers before slow escape/low hold)
Beats 2 options, loses to none, keeps momentum
Early low throw (punishes low holds, recovers before slow escape/mid/high hold)
Beats 1 option, loses to none, keeps momentum
Early 7f throw (punishes mid/high holds, recovers in disadvantage from slow escape/low hold)
Beats 2 options, loses to none, oppnent has advantage if whiffed
Buffered 12f throw (punishes mid/high holds on reaction, low hold unavailable to punish low holds, keeps advantage against slow escape)
Beats 2 options, unable to punish 1, keeps advantage
Wait (punishes holds on reaction, advantage against slow escape attempts)
Beats 3 options, advantage against remaining option
As anyone can see from looking at this quick breakdown, not only does the attacker have more options at disposal, but a lot of them are completely safe and beat more options than what the player in critical state does.
Very interesting!
-
The fact is still what I was saying before, most people don't know how to utilize the stun system to their favour, but some players did. This is why a few players were much more successful than the rest of them.
SkatanMilla
Member
In Virtua Fighter a person in stun is likely to struggle out of the stun and either block/evade/crouch under/crush your attack. Most of the stuns in that game don't lead to guaranteed damage, the best you're getting from most of them is a mixup situation.
In previous Soul Calibur games most of the stuns were shake'able so that you could either get out of them completely, or you could get out before any high damage move could hit you and the opponent could only get a guaranteed AA. Much like in VF if you get out of the stun you could block/crouch/sidestep/crush
In Tekken if you get stunned, depending on the stun you can either hold forward to escape it, or if it's a sit down stun you hold up/down to tech out of it. Most characters in tekken don't have moves with especially good crush properties, and sidestepping is not as instant as it is in VF/SC, therefor most characters only have the option of blocking high or low.
So it seems to me that if you're against stun systems turning into a mixup situation then you should be playing Tekken, but for some reason you're here whining about a change that's not going to happen, and you already know it's not going to happen. You're wasting your own time hoping for Doa5 turning into a whole new game.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
VF has guaranteed hit strings, guard breaks that actually work, stun setups that can't be struggled out of and this magical thing called frame advantage. DoA4 lacks ALL of that turning it into a constant guessing game. Guessing happens in all fighters, but ALL fighters also give you some control over your opponent when playing smart. DoA4? Every attack just resets the situation and its nothing but a damn headache.
Alter the stun system, use DoA++ stun system
Remove holds from those stuns
perfect stun game right there that awards the offensive player. Hardly any attacks stun, so when you play smart and get that stun you get your free launch/damage.
Alter the stun system, use DoA++ stun system
Remove holds from those stuns
perfect stun game right there that awards the offensive player. Hardly any attacks stun, so when you play smart and get that stun you get your free launch/damage.
SkatanMilla
Member
If you prefer blue over red, just wear blue instead of red and stop whining about how red should be more like blue.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry that you like DoA4 and most of us here don't and that we all want a better game while you just want doa4 with a new skin. If you want to wear a different color shirt then keep playing DoA4 as that game is so different from doa2u/3.1 that it might as well not be considered doa anyways. Most of us here want a doa game thats actually good...ya know like doa3.1 was.
No, you should stop wearing clothe, Milla.
SkatanMilla
Member
yeah 3.1 was so good that everybody in the fighting game community played it.
In fact it was so good that only 6 players played it, and that was after doa4 came out.
I'm sure your mind blowing ideas for changes are going to make everyone flock to doa5...
Yet Doa4 is considered to be the worst Doa by the majority of high level players. If the majority of the tournament base of players find fault in Doa4, than there is fault. There is nothing wrong in admitting something is not working properly, and getting it fixed, as opposed to pretending everything is fine and letting everything stay in chaos.
x Sypher x
Active Member
In other news, in regards to the actual topic of this thread and in an attempt to stray from further derailment...
How about making the recovery on all normal holds 21-25, and all expert holds 26-30?
I think this would make it a little bit easier to read your opponent and punish on reaction, while also adding more risk to holds.
The reason why I suggested more recovery frames for expert holds is because they do more damage or grant a certain advantage (character specific), and I believe the risk should be just as great as the reward you are seeking.
So maybe it could look something like this ---> 2/8/25 for normal holds and 4/6/30 for expert holds. These are just examples but you can probably see the logic behind these numbers. Normal holds will come out faster, have more active frames, and have a fair recovery. Since the damage output on them have now been nerfed I think this is fair. In the case of expert holds however, there is definitely more risk. It will come out slightly slower, have less active frames, and a larger recovery. I think this would give the player the incentive to learn how to use his expert holds wisely and time them well, otherwise he's fucking himself over.
Idk about parries so I won't touch that base. Let me know what you think.
BTW I can't take all the credit for this idea. Props to Rikuto for his input on the active window, suggesting that 10+ is just too large.
How about making the recovery on all normal holds 21-25, and all expert holds 26-30?
I think this would make it a little bit easier to read your opponent and punish on reaction, while also adding more risk to holds.
The reason why I suggested more recovery frames for expert holds is because they do more damage or grant a certain advantage (character specific), and I believe the risk should be just as great as the reward you are seeking.
So maybe it could look something like this ---> 2/8/25 for normal holds and 4/6/30 for expert holds. These are just examples but you can probably see the logic behind these numbers. Normal holds will come out faster, have more active frames, and have a fair recovery. Since the damage output on them have now been nerfed I think this is fair. In the case of expert holds however, there is definitely more risk. It will come out slightly slower, have less active frames, and a larger recovery. I think this would give the player the incentive to learn how to use his expert holds wisely and time them well, otherwise he's fucking himself over.
Idk about parries so I won't touch that base. Let me know what you think.
BTW I can't take all the credit for this idea. Props to Rikuto for his input on the active window, suggesting that 10+ is just too large.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
It's called doac was a terrible community and hardly anyone actually gave a damn about the game or offline play. Online play was the new thing, everyone was playing doa2u. DoA4 came out and again, online play and it was the "fresh" game on the block. Eventually everyone realized it was trash but couldn't be bothered to spend 20 minutes flashing the bios of the original xbox.
DoA4 only stayed alive as long as it did because there was money involved, which is pathetic. The money went away and the game died. So yes, sadly that piss poor community ignored the best version of DoA because it didn't have online play or money.
This is why FSD was born. Pretty much all original members of this site are doa3.1 players. Fact is, doa3.1 is the superior title that got shat on because doac was full of scrubs that didn't want to play offline, didn't want to even try doa3.1 and they saw some bass video and screamed "omg broken" even though they had no idea how difficult it was for bass to actually pull off those setups in a real match.
Fact is dude, DoA4 is trash and no one here wants a repeat with DoA5 because if DoA5 is anything like DoA4 then not only am I done with this series but just about everyone else on this site will be as well, and no one outside this community will even touch the game. So in the words of DrDogg "Enjoy your 15 man tournaments" because the community will be dead again and no one will travel for a bad game.
Corrected your statement.
You're doing a much better way of phrasing this than I've been. I'm stealing this post for future use. =P
What a terrible argument. I love that people argue removing the hold system would suddenly not make this game DOA, when that's exactly how the original DOA played. I guess that wasn't DOA then? I must have been playing Virtua Fighter or Tekken with Kasumi, Jann Lee and Tina. My mistake!
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
- In all of those games there are guaranteed damage situations following a stun. Some stuns are escapable, but at high level play, you don't consider those stuns to be guaranteed damage. You just count them as frame adv unless you're playing a lower level player. The fact that you'd even point them out is kind of confusing to me.
- In all of those games, once the opponent is stunned, they cannot inflict damage on the offensive player until they are out of the stun, and even then they're almost always at disadvantage.
- For the record, I play Tekken, SC and VF. I enjoy all three games and never feel as though I lost to a guess when I lose (well, maybe a bit of Tekken 6... hop kicks FTW). I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to have the feeling of losing to a guess removed from a majority of my DOA matches.
Look, I get that you want stuns in hold, but DOA has done that already. We've tried the stuns in hold approach and the tournament scene was dead on arrival. Would it really be so bad to try a variation that may appeal to the greater FGC and create a much larger tournament scene?
SkatanMilla
Member
It's not up to us to try anything at all, it's up to TN.
And I'm just being realistic when I'm saying holds in stun are here to stay, and if you don't like it then I recommend that you jump ship and play something else because Doa5 won't be the game for you (most likely).
There's no point in argumenting about it back and forth because nobody here has the authority to get shit done.
If you want to keep hoping then that's up to you, but I don't see them putting in a system that is wildly different from what is seen in the demo, they are probably going to continue down that path and change it with tweaks here and there.
And for the record, I don't think the stun game is the hottest thing since sliced bread, but I don't concede to that you want to make it out as random and risky for the attacker because as I proved through examples earlier you can play the stungame without taking any risks.
If Doa5 did end up with a new system I would still give it a fair chance.
However new systems does not equal to better systems, just like how SC5's new systems aren't better than how it used to be where good movement was more rewarding and the GI system was more fun and intuitive to use than the just guard system will ever be. SC5 is a pretty good game, and it's more balanced than what sc4 was. But that doesn't change that the system is less fun to use than it was in sc2/3/4