DOA 5 Tina Thread

[shinryu]

I have a couple questions. What do you all normally lead in with (i.e. attacks to start pressure, start your approach, etc.) and what are some good ways to open up someone's defenses? Besides baiting holds for throws, it looks like getting the hard knockdown for the force tech is very important for Tina. I often get those knockdowns off whiffs or careless approaches, but when it comes to opening up a pretty defensive opponent, I sometimes find myself stuck. Free-canceling strings doesn't seem too effective, especially when compared to its use on faster characters like Christie.

Ah, crap, double post:

Anyway, to some extent you're a little stuck in this regard. Tina sometimes has to defend till she sees a mistake. Free canceling is not as good just because it's harder to get strings going in the first place, but she's also very safe from a number of strings if finished (notably pp, ppk, 3k, kk, pkk). So go ahead and finish strings with her. If they have to respect the finish they're more likely to hold or block.

If you know you need the force tech that is the place to start. 6f+k, 6f+k, 6f+k. Tina's very good at high crushing; 44p will slip most highs and get you into BT. You can cover a lot of distance with crouch dashes and you can very quickly hit f to cancel and prevent 33p/33k from coming out. This can give you the option to go into 3k (safe) or hold 3p. While hold 3p is unsafe, they really need to respect the followup as it will give you the hard knockdown to force tech, so be liberal about finishing or using a throw from here. It's a risk but it's a good one. Also, 46f+p crushes high very early in the animation, so if you get into a position where you expect high attacks then 46f+p you should duck the high for hopefully a hi counter hold. Used sparingly, 1k both gives you some frame advantage on hit and sets you up for a WR 64f+p. 2f+k is actually +1 on block so if you're spaced to use it it's not a bad option.

If they're really turtling up, you're actually in a strong position. 46p will guard break them, as will 7k. 66f+p should punch through a lot of their moves properly spaced. Crouch dashing in is very strong as if they freeze up you have WR 64f+p on tap, and you can always safely poke with 3k. Also, since 33k is almost always used as a launcher people may forget it has a followup p. Both are unsafe, but if they try to punish 33k once, you might be able to keep that from happening again.

Re: BT. Word. BT is good stuff. I wish she had a safe way to get into it, but 44p just has to do sometimes. BT 7k is too good to pass up. And it's dumb and scrubby but sometimes p+k and 8f+p can work wonders if you don't abuse them.

 

[TRI Mike]

Force Tech
, +22 and if you
on the first frame you get +3 on block
and for this you get -1 on block.

So you don't just ground grab after the kick¿

 

[Django]

So you don't just ground grab after the kick¿

nope i 8P after every untechable knockdown unless they are dieing and ground grab will kill them.
not dealing with recovery kick with +22 frames is better then 12 more damage for me.

 

[TRI Mike]

+22 guarantees.... everything.

 

[Django]

+22 guarantees.... everything.

well it a force tech at +22 u can't hit them before they get up. they can still block.

 

[shinryu]

Yeah, the force tech is definitely key to her game. If you'd prefer to give up less damage the 1p 6f+k is 13 damage and still gives you +9 so it's not even that down on damage as compared to the usual ground throw. The only time I think ground throw might be more worthwhile is after a back-turned 6f+k or similar, since the choke will get you 30 damage instead of 20.

Also, I cannot overstate the usefulness of 6pp6k 8p as a juggle ender. If they don't tech, extra damage and +22; if they do tech, you're still at something like +6 and you don't have to worry about trying to time the tech roll's vulnerable frames.

 

[Wid0wmaker]

I've been trying to experiment with different back throw setups and I think I found a decent one. It seems that if you buffer 66T during the 44T throw animation, you can get a successful back offensive hold, which if they try anything besides a duck, low kick or punch, you can get a possible hi-counter back throw hold. So, the back throw is not guaranteed, but I think it can also provide mixup situations as well because you can also buffer 64T during the 44T animation to get a possible back throw as well. Or if they do decide to duck to escape the back throw, you can get a crouching throw.

I don't have enough experience with Tina to know actually how viable this is though. Does anyone think that this might be a practical setup?

 

[shinryu]

6pk is arguably your best option after that setup. They shouldn't be able to block it so unless it's Bayman or Lei Fang you're pretty much guaranteed to get that hit. The problem with throwing is them ducking it, mainly. If you know they're going to try to mash out something though toss it out, by all means. I've used that setup after the advanced mid kick hold for example. Works nicely.

 

[Dr. Teeth]

I've found FC 3P to be better for force teching then 8P.

 

[Wid0wmaker]

Ok, thank you shinryu. I'll give that a try. While on the subject, does Tina have any setups that put her into a position to get a back throw?

 

[shinryu]

I don't know of a guaranteed back throw setup. The closest one would probably be a 4p+kf backflip over a rising attack, which should basically guarantee the appropriate back high or crouch throw. Do not try this online as you will be fucked by lag. You can get a decent setup after the kk and BT k stuns too, more so after BT k as the stun is a bit shorter. Run up shining wizard donkey punch works pretty well. All her other setups give her +9 and the throws are all duckable, so 6pk is all you got. However, that does set up a BT 8f+p or BT p+k mixup nicely.

 

[Wid0wmaker]

Awesome. Thanks! I'll keep working at it.

 

[PacManila]

6pk is arguably your best option after that setup. They shouldn't be able to block it so unless it's Bayman or Lei Fang you're pretty much guaranteed to get that hit. The problem with throwing is them ducking it, mainly. If you know they're going to try to mash out something though toss it out, by all means. I've used that setup after the advanced mid kick hold for example. Works nicely.

I assume that 6PK after the 44T works only when they're near a wall? You can get PK after the throw since you get 11+ after the throw, enough for her jab to hit right after.

I've also been experimenting hitting PKP after the throw while the computer is mashing out mid punch hold (I used the recording function instead of the hold function in practice). If you hit the back throw and proceed with PKP afterwards, they'll eat the last P even if they mash out the hold, resulting in a limbo stun that leaves you to do anything you want (go for the reset, launch, etc.). If they hope to counter the last P, they need to delay the hold enough so that it comes out as Tina swings around to do the last P. If they do decide to attempt to counter it, they're putting themselves at risk for an MDT if we decide to omit the last P.

This still needs some more testing, but I think it's worth looking into. I would test it out more right now, but I have class coming up in a bit.

 

[shinryu]

6pk should work every time, they can't turn around in enough time to block. It's possible I'm confusing 44f+p's situation with the advanced mid kick hold or 64f+p6f+p though. I'll confirm when I get home. p based strings are dangerous in that they're duckable, like throws. Unfortunately, the difficulty with the setup you describe is that no one can hold when they're back-turned (Lei Fang and Bayman can parry, though), so realistically the scenario you're seeing isn't going to happen.

 

[PacManila]

When you get them with the 44T, they're too far for the 6P to hit (unless they're thrown near a wall). P should hit since its 11 frames and the throw gives 11+. They'll be able to throw out a hold when they're stunned by the K in PK.

 

[shinryu]

Works for me. Try 4k if 6pk isn't doing it, it has a little more range and they still wouldn't be able to block it.

 

[Wid0wmaker]

I did a little testing with it and I was able to get 6pk to hit after 44T. I didn't try it on all characters though, and the only one I couldn't land the 6p on was Ayane, but I was able to connect the 6p on Kasumi . It could be character specific.

 

[PacManila]

It may be character specific. I could land the 6P on Kasumi, but not Rig or Ryu. And it looks like they have enough time to crouch if you go for neutral P after 44T =(. 4K after the throw seems universal though, but after that nothing is guaranteed if they slow escape (in practice I had it set on fast stagger escape). However, if they slow escape and block after getting hit by 4K, you can use 4P+K afterwards. From that situation, you get 3-5+ on block.

 

[shinryu]

Shit, sorry, I didn't realize it was character specific. I usually test on Kasumi since she's got the 9 frame p and I forget she's got hitbox issues. 4k should work on everybody i think. Even against stagger escape you can mix up BT p+k and BT 8f+p. You can also turn around if you hold 3 and have hold 3p or 3k, which should beat anything they try in terms of retaliating. You also have WR 64f+p ready if you do that so you know what to do if they just block or hold.

 

[PacManila]

No worries man. 44T to 4K looks like a pretty good mixup setup, I'll try to incorporate it while I'm playing next time. BT 8T will be good against sidestepping and those looking to counter BT P+K. Her moonsault seems to be the best choice in terms of the options you have on block and knockdown. On block, you'll be at advantage to continue pressure, and from knockdown, you can go for her reset to whatever.