Do you think we'll see more "2D Fighter" aspects in DOA5?

[HokutoNoBen]

What I mean, for example, is that for Soulcalibur V, Project Soul has definitely cited more than a couple "SF4-isms" (meter management, EX Attacks, cinematic supers, etc.). Could we be seeing DOA5 going down a similar route, with "Power Blows" being only the tip of the iceberg?

At this point, I'm almost expecting that Team Ninja's newest fighter may have to do more than a couple of "new things", in order to try and win the attention of the new fighting game audience that SF4 has generated. Perhaps the better question to ask may be, how much would you guys be willing to take before you start getting up in arms, asking "what has Team Ninja has done to DOA"?

 

[Raansu]

I've already mentioned this to Rikuto once, but if this game brings back projectiles from DoAD, or implements any sort of power meter, then I will not play the game and will simply just be done with fighters as I have more or less completely lost interest in them.

 

[OSTCarmine]

I think this was brought up in that 'Ask TN' thread by Wah. If not, it should be.
DOA would go straight to the crapper if they started adding Meters and Supers to it. From what TN is saying, it seems like they are playing Powerblows off as some kinda QTE to make certain aspects of the overall game more engaging. Nothing inherently wrong with that i guess, but as you said : How far will they go, and how far can we stand it going?
Apart from the foggy details surrounding Powerblows, the interactive environs are a real step-up for DOA, possibly the entire genre. It reminds me of how fun the Uncharted series was. Lots of action involved with such small things, and it made the atmosphere of that battle in the 1st vid pretty intense. What I hope with all my heart is that these interactions with the environment are Stage-specific, and not universal. The current levels mostly have a unique feel to them. Id hate to lose that just so they can rig the 'Kyoto in Bloom' bridge with C4 cuz "thats what all the kids like"

 

[R4712-VR88]

I don't expect to see anything more than what the pre-alpha trailer showed. I really hope those powerblows don't have a meter on screen. I want DOA to keep its two/four life bars and timer, that is all. DOA doesn't need to completely follow Street Fighter IV and the way other fighters are going. DOA has plenty already to offer, Team NINJA just needs to flesh it out. Already we're seeing more involvement with the environments and that's something DOA has always had compared to other fighters.

 

[Rikuto]

There is no difference between a QTE and a multipart throw, except that QTE's look cooler.

Just keep that in perspective, it really isn't the devil people claim it is.

Meter is a different story. Meter can be good in any fighter if its put in properly, and it usually is not.

 

[HokutoNoBen]

There is no difference between a QTE and a multipart throw, except that QTE's look cooler.

Just keep that in perspective, it really isn't the devil people claim it is.

Well, don't forget the on-screen button prompts. If you've already taken the time to learn something like the Izuna Drop "manually", is there really a need to give it an on-screen prompt, as well? (Or at least, outside of training mode?)

But all that aside, QTEs, when done wrong/excessively, can be just as intrusive as any "30 second long cinematic ultra", in my opinion. For example, did ANYBODY care for the "Test Your Might"-style mini-games that often accompanied MKvDC's stage transitions? When I first saw the DOA5 TGS trailer in its entirety, one of the things I feared was that the whole exchange that won Hayate the first round was that Team Ninja was possibly citing a source that people didn't even like that much.

 

[Rikuto]

It's just a visualization. No difference from a gameplay standpoint, it only "feels" like the game is being dumbed down. Button prompt vs a thing that flashes up saying "Combo Throw?"

Well you get the idea.

I never played MKvsDC, but I can't imagine they would go that far...

The powerblow is simply a tool like any other chargeup as far as i can tell, and it's really not all that dangerous when you consider how long it takes to set up and how many ways around it there are.

The cliffhanger is a different system entirely, and they just happen to connect here because the powerblow was aimed in that direction. The cliffhanger is the system people need to be worrying about, not meters or easily avoided powerblows that may or may not be fed off of meter.

 

[HokutoNoBen]

Well, I would still think it may be better to at least have an "expert mode" where such can be turned off, to say the least. I mean, the goal with DOA5 is to ideally have a game that can be taken a competitive-viable game, correct? If the MK devs saw the value of dispensing with them for MK9, it's my hope that Team Ninja won't just put them in all willy-nilly.

As for Powerblows? It's not so much that I'm thinking of them as "dangerous", so much that I'm wondering if the concept may have implications for other things that may be just around the bend. Suppose Powerblows are indeed powered by a meter. It may stand to reason that other things may be too. Imagine if Counters were dictated by the same meter, which would introduce another level of meter management into this style of game. I dunno if that would at all be in-line with the suggestion to have Counters dictated by a "fatigue" meter that I thought I saw on this forum, but it's something to think about.

As for Cliffhangers, yeah, you are right. But again, all of this is just meant to a) give us something else to discuss and b) perhaps something to prepare for when the day comes when we finally do see more footage.

 

[Rikuto]

You're still assuming there is any QTE in the game. Nothing so far has been shown to suggest that, it's just that team ninja is very stylized and every other game has been shoving it down peoples throats lately so we all naturally fear it.

Now, if counters required meter i would actually be PRO meter. Anything that gets rid of the ability to use a counter right now is A-OK with me. It means you could blitz a person down before they can counter-spam.

 

[Berzerk!]

Look, lets get it straight. The added visualisation and camera moves that make Ultra's so visually exciting? DOA already does that better by having great camera motion around the throws, wall hits, falls, and other spectacular moves.

As for Ultra as a built-up-meter move? Nah. The flow of combat in DOA (and this is the same with VF, which is a lot flashier these days) is what makes it so engaging and there's a certain purity to it that I'm sure they'll be careful to preserve.

The "Super" meter idea works well in Soul Calibur 5 (I've played it), so never say never in a 3D game, but it's not something that would fit this style of fighter IMHO nor is it needed to make the combat exciting, accessible, new player friendly, deep, or anything else you might claim about what meters do for 2D fighters.

 

[OSTCarmine]

I dont think they should waste a meter on fixing holds. There are easier, less intrusive ways of doing that. Holds just need to be more heavily penalized, thats all. If you think about it TN could solve the "too many stuns" problem, as well as the "too many counters" problem in one, simple fix.
If they go back to 3.1, with way less stuns, then making a 'missed' hold stun-able is actually rewarding again. Added to that, they could modify the damage output for various stuns, so that the worse your stun, the worse the damage. Another idea is to introduce a new type of stun, specifically for counter spammers...
Also, Powerblows are definitely QTE, TN said so themselves. They may not necessarily have a prompt though. No QTE actually needs a prompt, and Rikuto is right when he says QTEs and DOA combo throws are the same. I am personally against any kind of prompt for QTEs as a whole. If a game follows a logical design, and has intuitive controls then no prompts are needed. I can do most of Tina's combo throws simply from knowing what the move looks like, and inputting a command corresponding to what i need her to do next. Same thing for Kasumi's

 

[Rikuto]

Can you quote where exactly did TN ever say that powerblows were QTE? So far its just been wild speculation as far as I know.

I've been keeping up pretty good I think, and what I'm aware they said was they are an attack that allows you to aim an opponent in a specific direction so you can capitalize on dangerzone damage.

That sounds more like doing a specific input during the initial part of the blow (ie the dashing back and fourth hayate did) and then actually aiming the camera during the slowdown before the final attack.

For the rest of ya's, so far has there been absolutely nothing to suggest there is a button prompt, and as far as i can tell that is the only difference you people see between a combo-throw and a QTE.

 

[OSTCarmine]

I was refering to the aiming, they did not say those exact words but im assuming since you aim them that they are. Sorry about making it sound like a direct quote.
You bring up an interesting point though, its never really made clear HOW you aim those things... What I hope is that since the vid shows no kind of prompt, the finished game wont either. It would do more harm than good.
On that note, I am now certain that I dont like the idea of powerblows at all, having recently seen some stuff about KOFXII. I dont want to judge this before knowing more, but i got this weird feeling that things are not going to go too smoothly

 

[Rikuto]

The question though...

How often do you land a normal chargeup in DOA 4?

How often do you expect to land a power blow in DOA 5?

I really don't see how this can hurt the game.

 

[OSTCarmine]

Well we cant be sure how its going to be implemented in DOA5, but you are right. You wont land those often. Thats not really my issue though
I dont like the whole "Cinematic" aspect of the move.
The cinematics that take place during any of the wall smashes shown [when they get knocked into cars etc] seemed to be more of a transition. The arena changed and it shifted the feel of the battle into a different gear. When they were on top of the building both characters had to worry about being thrown off it. That creates real tension. When they DO get knocked off, that particular hazard is gone, but a whole new one may come into play.
If powerblows only have this cinematic during an arena transition, im all for it. If not, then that creates a lag in the flow of the game that does nothing more that entertain the simpleminded hoards with flashing lights and pretty colors. That is ALL a hypermove does. It does not matter how many times anybody actually gets to use this, the fact that its there is what will irk me, stupid as that may sound.
Like I said, I dont want to judge prematurely... but I got a feeling

 

[Rikuto]

Remember that the cliffhanger is completely different. The only reason it linked toghether so beautiful in the trailer is because it is a trailer. They are two completely different mechanics.

The powerblow segment only lasted about 4.5-5 seconds total, and thats including the slowdown.

An izuna drop takes 3.5-4 seconds.

Is it really that much different? Enough to seriously bother you?


Alright, fine. This is what an in-battle cutscene with a QTE minigame looks like when its done correctly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vYTq2Q28N0

That lasted 42 seconds.

Now lets compare. . . 42 seconds. . . 5 seconds. . . 42 seconds. . . 5 seconds. . .

I don't think the flow of battle is going to be seriously disrupted here.

 

[OSTCarmine]

Now lets compare. . . 42 seconds. . . 5 seconds. . . 42 seconds. . . 5 seconds. . .

I don't think the flow of battle is going to be seriously disrupted here.

You know, I have the most fun on this site trading thoughts with you Rikuto.
Onto the topic at hand - You cant really compare the Izuna with the Cinematic powerblows since the Izuna is made up of various segments, none of which work without player interaction. To be perfectly honest, if a hypermove contains any type of player interaction during execution, or is fairly short, then I really dont mind them being there. Its the long and flashy ones that bug me, since they are just for the easily impressed. If you take a look at any 2d Fighter you will see that almost every combo done is meant to lead up to some Hyper move. This is how those games are structured, so I dont care. DOA, on the other hand, is all about creativity when it comes to combos. Instead of Hypers we were given a free-form combo system with lots of moves [I would think that DOA/VF prolly have the most individual moves per character in any fighter]. We create our own Hypers and we have fun with it. I NEVER want to see that change and ANY indication of anything of the sort naturally scares me. I do not want anything to mess with the flow of DOA that I have grown to love. Powerblows, for now, may be only a gimmick to entertain the masses. It may be a legitimate and useful tool that makes DOA better, adds new gameplay and improves our standing in the Fighter community as a whole.
It also may not do any of those things then what? Let it be known, here and now that OSTCarmine does NOT approve lol

 

[Rikuto]

LOL glad I entertain.

Just trying to alleviate your worries man.

To be perfectly honest, if a hypermove contains any type of player interaction during execution, or is fairly short, then I really dont mind them being there.

Pretty sure it will. We already know you have to "aim" it at some point, and there are not many things in this game that do NOT require input. But think of it like this, even if it doesn't require additional input after the initial blow, it still balances out because izuna can be pulled off five different, fast, highly accessible ways. A powerblow still requires a bitch-and-a-half, full chargeup that may only land once every blue moon. You end up trading trickier input and ease of opportunity for ease of execution and trickier opportunity. That alone could very well be all the difficulty that should be necessary for it.

Assuming DOA 5 stun system gets rebalanced, you WILL be seeing a variety of messed up deep stun combos that lead into these, as well as environmental setups. And you will also see characters that can't pull them off to save their life, so it will be a rarity to ever see them happen.

Both are good for a healthy FG.

 

[Berzerk!]

My impression of the powerblow in the trailer was that, like DOAD, it slowed down because the game detected it was close to a ledge, and it adds slowdown for effect.

But if it does it whenever you activate the powerblow, its no different in timing and visual glow than an Ultra and the biggest userbase in fighting games got used to that. I think it will be fine.

I also reinforce as Rikuto said, it's definitely not a QTE. It's just an amped up charge move, based on our current information. How often do I land charge moves? Pretty often, as I use it in anticipation of an opponent's attack at a certain distance to force a whiff punish. It's not great, but can be handy.

 

[Rikuto]

How often do I land charge moves? Pretty often, as I lag

fixed.

lol but seriously though, fully charged up? they don't land offline unless you're releasing them early. Not against anyone good.

And online, you better lag something fierce...