Dead or Alive. The Way We Feedback.

[MrMoon360]

From what I've seen as a gradually active member on this site, it seems we forget that our position as gamers and fans is not to demand.
It's to suggest.
Humbly.

As passionate and as self-proclaimed 'informed' or knowledgeable as we may be about the series, I think it is vital that we don't forget that a developer asking for feedback is a courtesy. Not a right. But a privilege. Whether it is for mutual gain or not is irrelevant. If you don't plan on buying a game because you don't like, so be it.
Points of view are always subjective; meaning not everyone may have that same point of view. This does not imply that any point of view is necessarily wrong, but it wouldn't hurt to have reasoning.
That is why I will give my reasoning for my point of view.

 

[MrMoon360]

I respect what Director Shimbori is trying to do. I imagine it is a very stressing and tedious matter to attempt catering to the casual gamer fan and hardcore gamer fans alike.

What I think people are missing here is that this is no longer a guessing game due to 3-point holds, but more of an "easier" game.
I believe their information to be factual when they mentioned spamming mid-counters (or counters in general rather) is disadvantageous. [Spamming counters in DOA4 was advantageous based on damage]
Reading and then throwing out a mid counter is something entirely different. You're only guessing if you can't read what is coming. That's what separates the pros from the amateurs.
On the same coin, no one is telling you to spam counters. Blocking is still effective in defense. There are recovery frames after some attacks. Some even guarantee grabs or launchers -- even when blocked.
(e.g. Ayane's )

Countering out of stun doesn't make this a guessing game. It makes it a frustrating game because your follow up may not be guaranteed. Lets just make that clear.

I've said all this just to emphasize that we should give the man Shimbori a chance to do what he thinks is right. Sit back and hope for the best.
After you've thrown in your suggestions and you still feel you're not enjoying the ride, hop off onto another bandwagon.
Trolling is childish and distasteful. Because that is exactly what you're doing if you stay here.
Bleh.

The last day for giving feedback is near. Let it be feedback that isn't too reconstructive to the face of a fighting game that's already in full motion toward an idea.

 

[Rikuto]

From what I've seen as a gradually active member on this site, it seems we forget that our position as gamers and fans is not to demand.
It's to suggest.
Humbly.

As passionate and as self-proclaimed 'informed' or knowledgeable as we may be about the series, I think it is vital that we don't forget that a developer asking for feedback is a courtesy. Not a right. But a privilege. Whether it is for mutual gain or not is irrelevant. If you don't plan on buying a game because you don't like, so be it.
Points of view are always subjective; meaning not everyone may have that same point of view. This does not imply that any point of view is necessarily wrong, but it wouldn't hurt to have reasoning.
That is why I will give my reasoning for my point of view.

No.

Getting our money is the privilege. If they want it, they need our feedback. This is a troubled franchise and a troubled company that has a very hard time making a large profit in the west compared to other companies in the industry. I'm not going to apologize for giving them straight feedback, either.

Just because someone else is the creative force doesn't mean you are obligated to sugar coat your words for them. Doesn't mean you're obligated to be an ass either. You should always be telling the truth though, and you have the right to say absolutely anything you want to them.

If, at the end of the day, they decide to ignore your words then that means you are not the type of customer they care to deal with. That's fine. That affects their bottom line, not yours. They will be the ones who feel the consequences. There is no downside to YOU telling them the truth.

 

[MrMoon360]

No.

Getting our money is the privilege. If they want it, they need our feedback. This is a troubled franchise and a troubled company that has a very hard time making a large profit in the west compared to other companies in the industry. I'm not going to apologize for giving them straight feedback, either.

Just because someone else is the creative force doesn't mean you are obligated to sugar coat your words for them. Doesn't mean you're obligated to be an ass either. You should always be telling the truth though, and you have the right to say absolutely anything you want to them.

If, at the end of the day, they decide to ignore your words then that means you are not the type of customer they care to deal with. That's fine. That affects their bottom line, not yours. They will be the ones who feel the consequences. There is no downside to YOU telling them the truth.

True.
Then I speak for myself about being humble and polite, I guess.

 

[Rikuto]

And you are welcome to do that. Just recognize that while it makes it easy for people to like you, it isn't going to produce any results that break the status quo.

And, if you are called to the defense of someone who is being criticized by the truth, general politeness may require that you defend them with lies (aka, being a "fanboy").

It's not really something I aspire for, so I just stick to truth giving. You have to live with yourself before you can worry about what other people think.

 

[MrMoon360]

And you are welcome to do that. Just recognize that while it makes it easy for people to like you, it isn't going to produce any results that break the status quo.

And, if you are called to the defense of someone who is being criticized by the truth, general politeness may require that you defend them with lies (aka, being a "fanboy").

It's not really something I aspire for, so I just stick to truth giving. You have to live with yourself before you can worry about what other people think.

Status quo.
The way you talk, you sound like you'd make an amazing fighting game.
I don't see how someone could 'lie' in the matter of opinion.

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man...


Shimbori isn't a man we can judge yet. On what premise? He hasn't made a mistake. He's never been the director of Dead or Alive.
What you seem to have grown fond of is stressing your personal views upon the FGC. You are not the FGC.
It is a group of people. People with different views. Very different in some cases.

You are, of course, free to come off as an ass -- as I'm sure you well know.
I doubt that will help meet any status quo either.
Content of a suggestion will always be there. How you present it says something else.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Shimbori isn't a man we can judge yet. On what premise? He hasn't made a mistake. He's never been the director of Dead or Alive.

Dimensions. In fact, he thought he had done a great job with Dimensions but when people like Rikuto, Raansu, Mr. Wah and VP told him otherwise at DID7, he was shocked. I think this was the inspiration for him to really reevaluate the entire game and take legitimate feedback from players like the ones here. I'm glad he got this shock, I just hope he goes far enough with the gameplay changes so we have a better game and he doesn't have to be shocked again.

What you seem to have grown fond of is stressing your personal views upon the FGC. You are not the FGC.
It is a group of people. People with different views. Very different in some cases.

You're mistaken. Rikuto's a part of the larger fighting game community, he plays other games and sees and hears what other player say and think about DOA. In addition to that, his experience with DOA and other games means he's in a very good position to judge what would make DOA5 a playable game and suggest changes.

 

[Awesmic]

So basically, me being humble / polite in making suggestions is off-putting to some people, making them believe I'm a fanboy kissing ass behind the scenes and hindering the progress of making DOA5 tournament-viable, so to speak. Really? Are you serious?

Personally speaking, it's definitely not my intention, and I don't see how this makes any sense, much less a reasonable way of labeling us. Not all of us humble / polite people are looking out for just ourselves. And dad-gummit, it's not like I'm gonna up and take an offer to do a location test - or something of the like - when there are people far more qualified than I am to do so if I had gained public relations through such a practice.

That said, let me be me and trust that I'll refer to you guys for... whatever it is you guys do in this Greek class.

 

[grap3fruitman]

So basically, me being humble / polite in making suggestions is off-putting to some people, making them believe I'm a fanboy kissing ass behind the scenes and hindering the progress of making DOA5 tournament-viable, so to speak. Really? Are you serious?

Why do you keep insisting that you're constantly being personally attacked when no such thing is happening?

 

[x Sypher x]

Maybe we should attack his precious Christie and see what kind of reaction that creates lol =P

 

[Awesmic]

Why do you keep insisting that you're constantly being personally attacked when no such thing is happening?

Calm down, I'm aware I'm not being personally attacked. I would've sounded more reluctant from the beginning. But at the same time, I'm aware I'm not the only one who's a token nice guy with honest-to-good intentions for the game's future with y'all's thoughts in mind. It's those like-minded individuals that know about this site that I'm concerned about.

Some of you act like it's the end of the game's future solely based on that, and that's why some folks here lurking are even afraid to post, much less spread the word about FSD in particular. This is the point I'm trying to get across... I'm only using myself as an example. I'm not putting anyone else on blast.

 

[PhoenixVFIRE]

Why do you keep insisting that you're constantly being personally attacked when no such thing is happening?

Because for the most part Awesmic is exactly that. So when someone says something like or similar to being polite/humble or as others would like to call it ass-kissing, you guys make sure to always point it out that way. Sure, I'll agree there comes a time when politeness just isn't enough anymore and that's where the much more vocal minority step in and tell shit like it is and how things need to happen otherwise such and such won't work.

But the point is you don't always need to approach something head-on *first*, there are other ways of going about something. Awesmic feels that way when you guys point it out that way because (excluding the hardcore fanbois who blindly love and worship Team Ninja's feet) he doesn't seem to have an aggressive personality and his approach is pretty sincere and polite without being overly aggressive.

I hope what I said made any sense at all LOL...but like I said that's where people like Rikuto, grap3, etc... come in as aggressive reinforcement to make sure things stick once the humble/polite approach doesn't work. Think of it as a good cop bad cop trying to influence the suspect to spills the beans.

 

[MrMoon360]

Dimensions. In fact, he thought he had done a great job with Dimensions but when people like Rikuto, Raansu, Mr. Wah and VP told him otherwise at DID7, he was shocked. I think this was the inspiration for him to really reevaluate the entire game and take legitimate feedback from players like the ones here. I'm glad he got this shock, I just hope he goes far enough with the gameplay changes so we have a better game and he doesn't have to be shocked again.


You're mistaken. Rikuto's a part of the larger fighting game community, he plays other games and sees and hears what other player say and think about DOA. In addition to that, his experience with DOA and other games means he's in a very good position to judge what would make DOA5 a playable game and suggest changes.

Consider me informed on that Dimensions matter.

Aside the credibility of Rikuto, you, Mr. Wah, VP, there's always a more pleasant way of presenting an issue. Going as far to say that people 'lie' and aren't constructive toward a better DOA because they decide to be polite and humble, is simply absurd. Blunt is one thing, but rude and pessimistic is another.
It accomplishes nothing.
I suggest we have a little faith.

This imaginary flame that these people believe its creating underneath Shimbori's butt to make a better DOA is more like an annoying, nasty fly speaking wise proverbs.

 

[Rikuto]

Calm down, I'm aware I'm not being personally attacked. I would've sounded more reluctant from the beginning. But at the same time, I'm aware I'm not the only one who's a token nice guy with honest-to-good intentions for the game's future with y'all's thoughts in mind. It's those like-minded individuals that know about this site that I'm concerned about.

Some of you act like it's the end of the game's future solely based on that, and that's why some folks here lurking are even afraid to post, much less spread the word about FSD in particular. This is the point I'm trying to get across... I'm only using myself as an example. I'm not putting anyone else on blast.

You can beat em', you can join em', or you can just stay opposed forever.

But to refuse any contact and possible learning experience based on a possible conflict of view? That is only motivated by fear.

The only way people learn, grow, and socialize is to both inquire and express themselves, and along the way you are bound to have viewpoints that conflict. Keeping those viewpoints after you've been proven wrong in an argument is called ignorance, and people do this because of emotional insecurity at the idea of being wrong. What you are talking about, however, are people who know their own ignorance would likely be exposed if they posted because they have very little actual understanding of this game. And so, they choose not to post out of their insecurity.

And so what? Am I doing them any greater service by simply lying to them and agreeing with their false beliefs? Am I doing the community a service by keeping it ignorant? No. Of course not.

I can be gentle in my arguments and you have seen that in the past. But I won't accept responsibility for another mans ignorance. It is up to everyone to deal with their own emotions.

Blunt is one thing, but rude and pessimistic is another.
It accomplishes nothing.
I suggest we have a little faith.

I don't think I've been rude yet to anyone on team ninja's staff, except for perhaps the itagaki oatmeal cookie reference which is LEGENDARY. Have I stated that Hayashi may well be fired in the near future if he doesn't stop his current methods? Yes. That is me being blunt, not insulting or wishing for someone to lose their job. I be blunt to prevent this if its possible, or help speed it up if its unavoidable.

I have faith to an extent in what Shimbori is doing now, as a result of our communication. I did not have this at the time of Dimensions and early DOA 5 development, because absolutely all evidence stated that failure was far more likely than success. I still have no faith in anything Hayashi is heavily involved in. I refuse to have faith in poor odds. That's how you lose in life.

If Hayashi himself wants me to have faith in him, he himself needs to give me a better reason than a list of (almost unanimously considered) greatly inferior games.

 

[Awesmic]

You can beat em', you can join em', or you can just stay opposed forever.

But to refuse any contact and possible learning experience based on a possible conflict of view? That is only motivated by fear.

The only way people learn, grow, and socialize is to both inquire and express themselves, and along the way you are bound to have viewpoints that conflict. Keeping those viewpoints after you've been proven wrong in an argument is called ignorance, and people do this because of emotional insecurity at the idea of being wrong. What you are talking about, however, are people who know their own ignorance would likely be exposed if they posted because they have very little actual understanding of this game. And so, they choose not to post out of their insecurity.

And so what? Am I doing them any greater service by simply lying to them and agreeing with their false beliefs? Am I doing the community a service by keeping it ignorant? No. Of course not.

That's all good and gravy. But keep this in mind... not all of them are gonna post like they know something, and aren't looking to set themselves up to be exposed. Like I said, I'm referring to those with y'all's thoughts in mind. Some of them - TRI Mike and his curiosity on why DOA4 was a bad game, for example - actually want to inquire, understand and apply the knowledge for themselves in order to help or educate others. Sure, he still plays it, and granted, you guys handled this rather well with ease (and at least I think he took it well)... but what about the next time?

All I'm saying is tone down the intimidation factor a notch. Let's face it, you and Grape gotta admit some of the smart-ass comments you occasionally make aren't necessary.

 

[Rikuto]

That's all good and gravy. But keep this in mind... not all of them are gonna post like they know something, and aren't looking to set themselves up to be exposed. Like I said, I'm referring to those with y'all's thoughts in mind. Some of them - TRI Mike and his curiosity on why DOA4 was a bad game, for example - actually want to inquire, understand and apply the knowledge for themselves in order to help or educate others. Sure, he still plays it, and granted, you guys handled this rather well with ease (and at least I think he took it well)... but what about the next time?

All I'm saying is tone down the intimidation factor a notch. Let's face it, you and Grape gotta admit some of the smart-ass comments you occasionally make aren't necessary.

Heh.... look, we're human. If people stuck to what was only necessary 100% of the time, they wouldn't be human. That's not just me trying to find an excuse for being an ass, but don't you think if we didn't spend all of our time trying to convert the disillusioned masses we might find other places to, you know, vent and be human?

I don't see anyone else stepping up to share the load though. You know how high the frustration level can rise when you're fighting a tidal wave of ignorance every day with maybe one person to come along and back you up? Yea, you try and keep things civil, but there are times when you really couldn't care less how the other person is going to take your words because you're tired of saying them for the 9999th time. Since the general consensus is that people like us are apparently assholes anyway, it doesn't make much difference after a while. You just stop caring all that much.

You're too kind hearted to speak words of shock value that need to be said to certain people. Mr. Wah is too neutral/busy dealing with other crap. Hubbs has other priorities. Mamba doesn't care. PL is playing other games. Master only wants people to like him, and even if he didn't he's usually too busy rigging private tournaments/recording himself. Offbeat fell into a black hole. NinjaCW doesn't care enough to bother. Raansu is a legit asshole (he said it first). Virtuapai isn't around enough.

Then there is everyone else from the vet camp who pretty much just occasionally pops in but really isn't trying to spread a certain kind of knowledge or mentality base. After that come all of the guys who actually are listening to what we say, and are learning from it. But they are still learning, and to them it's just two seasoned guys sounding off and not an entire community coming together to tell them what's up. That isn't enough for any of them to echo our words with total conviction.

So excuse us guys, if it seems like we occasionally snap. But we're not Jesus and we have no intention of trying to be.

 

[Arnell Long]

Feedback is Feedback. Some of it's harsh, others is patty cake. I myself prefer to be more polite/respectful btw. All in all though, we're Fans at the end of the day.

Now Developers getting our money is absolute for them to carry on to future Products. And Mr Moon, I'm sure you know this, but DOA isn't SF nor TK...meaning no matter how those games turn out, they'll sell 300,000 copies or so easy. But for DOA, we're all we've got for the most part, so by taking in our "sometimes" harsh Feedback is absolutely essential for revitalizing the Franchise and bring in fresh blood.

I don't mind new comers dropping out of the Community as appose to Vets. And DOA4 delivered that in spades. So 'pun intended', Team Ninja has to reshuffle the deck, and put some true players at the Table.

So with that being said at this point of time, TN "needs" us if they plan on "not an actual word" Sequel-lizing the Franchise.

 

[Awesmic]

Heh.... look, we're human. If people stuck to what was only necessary 100% of the time, they wouldn't be human. That's not just me trying to find an excuse for being an ass, but don't you think if we didn't spend all of our time trying to convert the disillusioned masses we might find other places to, you know, vent and be human?

You mean, like at DOAW?

'Cause I'm definitely considered human there.

I don't see anyone else stepping up to share the load though. You know how high the frustration level can rise when you're fighting a tidal wave of ignorance every day with maybe one person to come along and back you up?

Assuming we're talking about going to other communities as a form of outreach (such as DOAW), rushing in the warzone consistently can lead to this. No two territories operate the same way, and that's why you must know it intimately to have a solid battle plan and minimize the overall risk, metaphorically speaking.

Some people just have an easier time adapting to certain territories without losing their minds. Because of that, I've earned a certain level of mutual respect at DOAW to where folks find it desirable to back me up from the beginning in heated arguments, and I'm sure it's the same way with Grape and NeoGaf (TBH, I honestly don't know), and if my hunch is correct based on the increasingly civil discussions there in recent memory, you, d3v and Sorwah with your ties to Shoryuken.com. If there's anything we have in common, we take advantage of that mutual respect in said territories to help this community out.

Since being active in DOAW, I've had very few unreasonable oppositions apart from one argument with a person who'll remain anonymous, regarding the choice of guest characters and the history behind it. And as you stated previously, that's something this person has to deal with. However, this was but one incident in which the person never understood / refused to understand based on viewpoints adopted from you guys. Most of the others I have crossed paths with in these discussions (even when you and Grape seemingly rubbed them the wrong way in the process at first) listened to reason and over time came to respect that viewpoint, albeit not yet being able to truly relate.

The point is, Rikuto, this is how you effectively deal with tidal waves and turn them to mere ripples in a steady current. But you probably already know this. I dunno how you and Sorwah manage to keep things civil in DOA-related front-page topics over at SRK myself (for the most part), but while it's true DOA does need some work to be tournament-viable, SRK certainly doesn't look like the tidal wave of ignorance it was years ago. Maybe a few subtle jokes here and there, but dad-gummit, my hat goes off to y'all for making progress. I mean, take a look back as a result of y'all's influence. When the first shitty review of the DOA5 alpha demo was front-paged on SRK, people gave a damn. They wanted it taken down. If this was any other year, the folks at SRK would've believed every word. I never would've dreamed some affirmative action would've been taken shortly after that farce had you not got to know the territory.

EDIT: Overlooked the edit on your post. I'll have to get back to you on that part in a while.

 

[x Sypher x]

Shoot I don't mind either side of the spectrum, you can either spit venom or blow me butterfly kisses for all I care. I welcome any and all types of feedback/thoughts/concerns, etc. When I first started playing DOA4 about 2 years ago, which was my 1st DOA game, I had no idea there was a community behind it. Then when I discovered DOAC I was ecstatic, and now here I am at FSD. I had found a group of like-minded individuals (for the most part) who shared a common interest in the game. While I didn't understand at first what everyone's beef was with DOA4, I enjoyed learning about it and DOA as a whole as time went on. And yes I have played and I own all DOAs, except the Xtremes. Now even to this day I'll admit that I'm not the smartest of the bunch when it comes to breaking down a game. I may not be able to decipher frame data very well or understand tiers and match-ups very well, but I know enough of the fundamentals to get by, like determining what's safe/unsafe, what attacks are useful, blocking more often, learning how to space, etc. So I'd like to consider myself a skilled player at this point, but I know there's still a lot of room for improvement (i wish I had a mentor lol). But for the most part I've earned a bit of recognition from some of the community, whether in the forums or playing against them online (Now if only I could attend offline events lol). And I do occasionally express my thoughts on certain things during various discussions. Do I mind being corrected from time to time? Not at all. It's just another learning experience. So all in all, I very much enjoy DOA and being a part of it's community. I'm not going anywhere.

 

[MrMoon360]

snip

I just knew you were a dedicated fan beneath all that hardened rock.
No one can mistake your excitement for Bayman, anyway.

At the end of the day, we are all human and not perfect. We approach things differently, but its good to know its toward a common goal.
Making the best entry of the DOA series yet.

Wish someone would've addressed my perspective on the 3-point hold though. >.>