About forced techs

[TRI Mike]

I've been having quite a few number of discussions with my offline mates as of late regarding the option of forced teching in DOA5 as a legit tool. One of them especially seems to have a lot of problems accepting the mechanic as being universal, especifically Tina's granting her +22. He plays Bass so he seems to have built this strange mental construct in which he thinks Bass should be the only character able to forced tech becuase he is the only one with no-damaging pick-ups that give him some frame advantage. He has reached the point where he says forced tech is not an intended tool by Team NINJA and it should be gone.

I usually explain all we say here about forced techs being a tool to keep offensive after making the opponent fall down, giving yourself some nice frame advantage and stopping the stupid wake-up kick from ever happening. But he doesn't seem to understand so help me with some nice reasons why FT is cool.

 

[David Gregg]

First I want to say that I understand that FT's are very important to players and that imo they should have been left untouched b/c if it helps improve your game, it leads to better online gameplay and competitiveness. Having said that I play Eliot who essentially has none and I do just fine online. They're appreciated for the guaranteed damage that follows but you'll learn to adapt once it's nerfed/gone.

Wake-up kicks aren't as bad as everyone is making them out to be I'm actually concerned that people aren't spending enough time learning how to punish and/or defend themselves against them b/c people are complaining about them so much. Even occasionally against S+ players I do consecutive low wake up kicks and they act as if a ghost just appeared out of nowhere and are completely defenseless.

 

[Brute]

Force techs just need some balancing, like a lot of moves/tools in DOA do. Some characters have some disproportionately heavy and advantageous ones whereas other characters have either slow or weak ones (low frame advantage or knocking them far enough away that follow-ups are very limited). This distribution seems to be random, rather than having characters with weak anti-WU tools (bad crushes, weak holds, no floor throws, etc.) receive better FT options. If it were rebalanced and more thought were put into specific FTs respective to each character as a whole, I don't think many would complain about them.

 

[TRI Mike]

First I want to say that I understand that FT's are very important to players and that imo they should have been left untouched b/c if it helps improve your game, it leads to better online gameplay and competitiveness. Having said that I play Eliot who essentially has none and I do just fine online. They're appreciated for the guaranteed damage that follows but you'll learn to adapt once it's nerfed/gone.

Wake-up kicks aren't as bad as everyone is making them out to be I'm actually concerned that people aren't spending enough time learning how to punish and/or defend themselves against them b/c people are complaining about them so much. Even occasionally against S+ players I do consecutive low wake up kicks and they act as if a ghost just appeared out of nowhere and are completely defenseless.

You must be new to the community man. Online play in DOA5 is not of the best quality (a shame) so there's no real point on taking it seriously. The importance of FT goes way beyond what happens in an online match... and as far as I'm concerned, no FT in the game give guaranteed stuff... not even Tina's +22.

 

[Saber]

and as far as I'm concerned, no FT in the game give guaranteed stuff... not even Tina's +22.

It's just frame advantage. As I mentioned in the other thread, FTs are an excellent pressure/rushdown tool and they eliminate WUKs.

Force techs are fine as it is. They maintain (and continue) the advantage attackers have, and give defenders a choice - tech yourself up or we will do it for you.

 

[Matt Ponton]

As a Bass user, I've always hated the FT system as well. In fact, his 1P is a better Force-tech than his 2H+Ps because it puts them in closer range than his 2H+Ps. Which allows for his 12i throw to connect if an opponent is guarding or delays their attack since the active frame arrives at the point the advantage diminishes. This isn't possible with his 2H+P. It should be said that only happens on his knockdown due to the advantage and positioning after the knock down.

Even with all that said. I don't think you'll get any Bass user to say they enjoy the FT system, because they feel it should be an individual trait that Bass has for scoring a knockdown and keeping pressure for his lack of speed.

Now, if you made it so the pick-ups are better than the force techs for other characters then I can see Bass users accepting of the FT system.

 

[UncleKitchener]

I also play Bass and I gotta say that I never liked the FT system that much.In my mind it was always a very bad imitation of the Namco ground game (yeah, I know they're in fact nothing alike, but that's just my opinion).

I could remember clearly the pre-1.03 patch days where FT was waaay more effective than the pick-up because not only was the pick-up simply outclasses by FTs that gave better frame advantage, kept you closer to the opponent or both (, ), there really was no reason for using the pickup outside of combos. Almost every Bass player with the exception of a very select few that used it as a psychological tool or just due to habit (like me), had swapped the pickup for FTs as they were way better and gave better mix-ups and you could also include throws in your mix-up game, as Wah explained.

If a tool that is supposed to make a character unique is less useful than a tool that is universal, you're going to come to a conclusion that 'yeah, I'm playing a character that needs a bigger wrench'. If my pick-up only gave +11 in 1.02 and put me at a worse range compared to a FT like which was +12 or which was a whoopin' +13 and put me at throw-range, I would've been crazy to use the pickup instead, especially if I'm playing against Kasumi or Christie, which would've been downright idiotic, because that was suicide.

The +11 pickup was perfect for DOA3 because you had a great 50/50 mix-up with : and , both 16i, great damage and both of them could potentially loop. The pick-up back then was 12i and it was more like a ground catch throw. Those were good days.

But then came DOA5 where +11 really didn't mean that much and you could potentially or backdash away from Bass unless he did either , or because has a nerfed range and horrible recovery.

Then came 1.03 and the pickup was made much better. At +13 you can now put fear into your opponent again and I swear the grab puts you closer compared to the pre-1.03 pickup. It's definitely throw range and it's great, but here's the problem; I can still get the same results with FTs and I even do more damage which still makes the ground pickup redundant outside of combos.

The other problem is that if they try and buff the pickup more in the current system, they risk potentially breaking the character.

tl:dr :I for one very much welcome the changes to the system in 5U, if it ends up actually making this tool more useful. I never liked the FT system anyway.

 

[virtuaPAI]

Lol, I never used it. Didn't want to lose guaranteed damage for potential damage. It was the only solid thing in Doa4, but since this is no longer the case with Doa5, I have no problem with its loss.