DOA5 E3 Version Q&A

[Blacka Blocka Flocka]

@franman lean more towards what Drdogg is saying because most moves are unsafe in Dead or Alive... Kasumi is not high risk high reward. Why? Speed is a huge factor in Dead or Alive or at least it was in Dead or Alive 4. In DOA4 she exerted an extreme amount of pressure on her opponent just by standing next to them. Basically when going up against an average Kasumi you will become very frustrated against one who only uses only P and 6P. Then instead of Izuna drops off of every move she had a launcher after every kick counter except high counter. dupe

 

[Allan Paris]

Kasumi is high risk/reward because she is the unsafest character in the game and can be punished from anything she does if it is blocked and somethings on hit (2 safe moves in DOA4). The high reward comes into play with her rush down, and she starts; working the stun game, and then dishing out a lot of damage from her launches/juggles especially from counter blows. Given her speed getting the situations to launch/juggle are fairly easy. This is why she is a high risk/reward character.

Yeah others are unsafe but no where near her level (this makes her a high risk). So when she gets in, that's where the high reward comes into play.

DrDogg or Rikuto, this is a scrub question. I am pretty sure you guys didn't try this, but can you hold out of unsafe moves? Lesser players do this (pisses me off to no extent) and you can't punish with attacks because of it. I am not talking about super unsafe moves, but the moves that leave you at like a miuns 8.

On second thought, I think I know the answer to that. I will wait until one of you answer.

 

[DrDogg]

Yeah others are unsafe but no where near her level (this makes her a high risk). So when she gets in, that's where the high reward comes into play.

Other than Tina and maybe Christie, Kasumi has just as many unsafe attacks as every other character. Zack probably has a few more than her though. I don't think anyone is more unsafe than him.

But it looks like things may be changing, so we'll see...

DrDogg or Rikuto, this is a scrub question. I am pretty sure you guys didn't try this, but can you hold out of unsafe moves? Lesser players do this (pisses me off to no extent) and you can't punish with attacks because of it. I am not talking about super unsafe moves, but the moves that leave you at like a miuns 8.

On second thought, I think I know the answer to that. I will wait until one of you answer.

You can hold instantly, so if you're at +8, the opponent can hold your 9-frame attack unless the string jails or is a 2-in-1 of some sort.

 

[Allan Paris]

Other than Tina and maybe Christie, Kasumi has just as many unsafe attacks as every other character. Zack probably has a few more than her though. I don't think anyone is more unsafe than him.

I am not talking about DOA5 Kasumi. I should be, though, and just forget about the one before her.

You can hold instantly, so if you're at +8, the opponent can hold your 9-frame attack unless the string jails or is a 2-in-1 of some sort.

I figured this much. Ok.

 

[AKNova7]

To be honest, to make this a entertaining and competitive fighter, most of the mechanics will need to be redone. In all actuality, I haven't seen lateral movement be very useful at all at high level in this game. Stuns are stupid the way they are, the need to not be holdable, but to balance that, they need to reduce in number. Free step dodging from DOA3 needs to come back, the game is stupid without it, might as well be 2D. With mixups this fast, free-step dodging needs to work. Sidestepping (not Free Step Dodge) in general in this game is more of a pain than Virtua, yet, the mix-ups in this game come faster than Virtua. I just don't understand the set-up that they're going with. String delays make this even worse, and yet, somehow, with, outside of the hold, some of the worst defensive mechanics I've ever seen in 3D games (at least that I've played) versus some of the fiercest fast offense I've seen in 3D fighters, it just seems all bad.

To me, it seems like to be a solid addition to the fighting game community, this game will have to be re-worked on many many points. Defensive mechanics outside of the hold will have to be buffed to reach the level attained by current top tier offense.

For instance:

Evasion/Hold System (Which needs to be merged into one)

Game's moves divided into High, Vertical Mid, Horizontal Mid, Low.

High Moves would be able to be ducked, and high countered.
Low moves would be able to be jumped, and low countered.
Vertical Mids (Like Launchers) would be able to be sidestepped, and would either have MP counter or MK counter.
Horizontal Mids would not be able to be sidestepped, ducked, or jumped, but would do solid damage, be very unsafe (or negative on hit), and would not stun.

Of course, I'd want them to add a less annoying sidestep command in an alternate scheme. Like VF's/SC's, or increase the startup.

The point of this would be to make it so, while powerful, the defense is about gaining MOMENTUM, not damage. Also, make it so when a move is successfully evaded, the rest of the string doesn't track, or give universal crush on successful sidestep, to make the defender block instead of completing his string. I vote for universal crush to avoid hitbox issues.

Stun System

Reduce number of stunning moves in the game. Disallow being able to hold out of the first move you are hit with in the stun sequence. (To encourage Stun-Launcher/Stun-Heavy setups), make sure all characters have a launcher or knockdown-grab, or something useful like this to use out of the stun setups. This would allow guaranteed combos without anything stupid entering the game. Since this game needs to be balanced without meter, I'd find this helpful.

String Delays

People should have to commit on offense just like everyone must commit on defense. Blow this universal string delay garbage up, please.

General Unsafety of the Game

Many defensive and offensive mechanics are not very useful because of everything being unsafe. Every character should have at least a small list of safe moves to work with, especially in a game that, with these changes, would rely on movement to quite a degree.

Free Step Dodge

Needs to be useful again. At least should be able to dodge linear mids.

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As far as I'm concerned, this is likely the very minimum of things that may need to be corrected. Feel free to disagree, just tell somebody why. lol​

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[DriftSlave]

even though Im not that informed with DOA, I can't agree with this

you talk about merging the hold system into a evade system, DOA at it's roots is the triangle system, holds themselves are not the problem in fact there are 2-3 threads talking about holds and stuns, Rikuto was nice enough to break down the success % of holds and so on and so forth. The evade system sounds a lot like Kensei's active evade...and thats all bad in general. Holds are there to reward the defender for guessing right, the issue is them being able do it alot of the time is a problem however.....

Thats where stuns(and the different stun states) and now critical burst comes into play. I personally don't know the in's and outs of critical stun state however i know that while in it you can hold while in it but if they guess wrong the offense gets to either add to the threshold or go for a launcher for more damage. There are stun states which you can't hold right out of, or at all(you have to slow escape). The critical burst as explained to me is a new mechanic that is a attack when done near the end or at a certain point of the stagger threshold you can put the opponent in a stun in which they can't so much in and you and follow up for insure damage. This alone changes the dynamic of the stun system for far as we seen(further testing is required). I can't say reducing the amount of stuns will help at this point, they may even hamper the game in it's current state.

the String delay thing i feel like is there because of the hold system, it's really there to throw of the timing of holds and with certain strings, have different hit properties. there are key matches i've watch when free canceling was used to mix up the opponent legitimately, and delayed strings to bait out counter hits. the VF characters as DrDogg said are still committed to their strings like they are in VF5FS so the string delay does not apply to them.

when you say offensive and defensive mechanics that are not useful, what are you referring to? characters do have moves that are relatively safe...

you want FSD to be useful? I would want sidestep to be useful....like in the middle of a blocked string, however DOA's strings have alot of tracking for some odd reason so there is an issue with that, I didn't see too much sidesteping outside of PB cancels...hopefully that will change.

*note this information maybe inaccurate, please correct or note my errors*~ thanks~

 

[Blacka Blocka Flocka]

Yeah others are unsafe but no where near her level (this makes her a high risk). So when she gets in, that's where the high reward comes into play.

DrDogg or Rikuto, this is a scrub question. I am pretty sure you guys didn't try this, but can you hold out of unsafe moves? Lesser players do this (pisses me off to no extent) and you can't punish with attacks because of it. I am not talking about super unsafe moves, but the moves that leave you at like a miuns 8.

On second thought, I think I know the answer to that. I will wait until one of you answer.

.... Allen getting a thrown with the normal damage modifier in Dead or Alive is not high risk. High risk is when a character with a 9 frame jab and 11 frame 6p that crushes randomly is standing next to you and you have to guess whether or not to counter (and eat a throw with the high counter blow modifier) or attack and more than likely be counter blown (stunned) and then slow escaping (not going to happen against an average Kasumi player) and then dealing with her PP6P6K string or 6K / 3F+K launcher. When the player figures out all her launchers are GOOD launchers are either a high kick or mid kick the K Player can just launch with 33P or do 7K which is hold-resistant and then slow escape if the opponent does hold. In fact Kasumi can be played just like the so called top DOA strategists prefer... You turtle they have to come in and get checked with her punch strings and parries (Why the fuck does she have a parry when shes faster than everyone else?) When she needs to get in close she just runs up and blocks.. So nothing about this character is high risk, right? Any disputes?

 

[AKNova7]

Let me try to explain where I'm coming from. There's nothing wrong with holds itself, in my opinion, it's just that the way that DOA is set up, there's really multiple ways to avoid many things. Some are more viable than others, but they're still there.

High and Lows are dodgable by low crushes (jumping moves) and high crushes (crouching moves), right? Adding a sidestep (evade) system, would not only give a useful place for the new sidestep, but a way for Mid moves to be crushed as well. What I mean is, is that the Evasion of Linear moves could serve as a replacement for a Mid Crush in this scenario. Holds would be there for people who prefer those, and this would be there for string manipulation. Holds would still be a good part of the system, and there wouldn't be any reason to not use holds because sidestep catches count as high counter blows I believe.

Stun states, I know why they're in there, and same with critical burst, but this is likely all because of a system that stuns in the first place. Not allowing holding after the first move like I said changes the game into a stun launcher game, and also balances out the damage in the game, instead of the entire character list being based around critical burst and sit-down stuns AKA avoiding the system altogether. At that point, we might as well let annihilate the system, if that's what decides it. lol. If the best characters are the best by avoiding the system, just blowing up the system makes everything better.

The string delay is there because of the hold system, that's true, but that's what free canceling is for. Having two different mechanics to address the same thing really doesn't allow for a useful way of knowing when to attack in the first place. You would reduce the number of stuns to compensate for the stuns being more powerful, in terms of not being able to hold out of the first move. And it wouldn't hamper the game if you could sidestep linear mids, as it would allow the game to still be very competitive even without the stun system, and when you add stuns to it, it's even crazier. Frame advantage could be used to bait out counter hits, without making the entire game a game of should I attack. At the same time, if all this happened, it would ALLOW the game to have safer moves, and with safer moves, more options on both sides.

Non-Useful offensive options include footsies into backstep, Footsies into evade, and most things that involve movement following a move of some kind, because the game is so unsafe that moving after your moves are blocked isn't often a good idea, which is why string delay exists. Defensive non-useful mechanics include free step dodge, and attacking in response. See, lengthy string delays balance the unsafety as the game, and therefore if removed would cancel each other out.

Personally, I'd like Free Step Dodge and sidestep to be useful, because it allows limiting of your opponents options while they're attacking on both sides, not just wild attack status. But if not for that, sidestep should defitely be useful, though the command should be easier to mash on reaction on at least one control scheme, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[DrDogg]

Most of what you're asking for is already in the game. The only thing that isn't is the "no first hit counter". I don't think that solves the problem though. People like Manny will ignore it and extend the stun for more damage, leaving us with the exact same thing we had before.

Obviously string delays and free canceling are an issue, but I don't know if we'll see that addressed in DOA5. It would require a near complete overhaul of the system.

 

[AKNova7]

Most of what you're asking for is already in the game. The only thing that isn't is the "no first hit counter". I don't think that solves the problem though. People like Manny will ignore it and extend the stun for more damage, leaving us with the exact same thing we had before.

Obviously string delays and free canceling are an issue, but I don't know if we'll see that addressed in DOA5. It would require a near complete overhaul of the system.

Yup, and as a result of that, we're still going to see hilariously unsafe moves on block.

About the stun thing, sure, I think Manny would be willing to take the risk to do that, definitely, but wasn't the main problem being able to hold out of stun because some characters move metagame dodges that, and the metagame is shaping all around rare guaranteed damage in the first place? I mean, while Master would do that during stun, he'd do it at his own risk, and it would give all characters a mechanic to guaranteed damage, maybe just not the maximum amount of that damage.

Also, really? Can you sidestep/FSD launchers in strings now and the rest of the string not automatically track to your location? That right there is probably the biggest improvement I've heard, though the sidestep input could be better.

Did they improve the safety of the moves already and I just missed it? Or did they not do that because string delays are staying? Yeah, I know mid crushes are already in the game for some characters, but this should be a well used tactic, in my opinion. There should be more of it.

 

[DrDogg]

Yup, and as a result of that, we're still going to see hilariously unsafe moves on block.

I've been advocating that characters should be far more safe. We'll see what we get in the next public build.

About the stun thing, sure, I think Manny would be willing to take the risk to do that, definitely, but wasn't the main problem being able to hold out of stun because some characters move metagame dodges that, and the metagame is shaping all around rare guaranteed damage in the first place? I mean, while Master would do that during stun, he'd do it at his own risk, and it would give all characters a mechanic to guaranteed damage, maybe just not the maximum amount of that damage.

I think there would need to be a greater reward for not extending the stun or a higher risk in taking the gamble. With the adjustments you're suggesting, I don't think many DOA players would see a huge benefit in stun > launch, and would therefore continue to play the stun game.

Also, really? Can you sidestep/FSD launchers in strings now and the rest of the string not automatically track to your location? That right there is probably the biggest improvement I've heard, though the sidestep input could be better. Did they improve the safety of the moves already and I just missed it? Or did they not do that because string delays are staying?

It depends on the string. The problem right now is that most of the tracking attacks seem to be at the end of a string... and unsafe. It's just a really odd system that encourages string delays and free canceling so you can have a false sense of safety, then gives you a forced guessing game at the end of the string between a safe high, unsafe mid that doesn't track, or unsafe low that does track.

This could be fixed by removing/toning down string delay, limiting free canceling to on-hit only (primarily for use in combos), and making far more attacks safe on block. At the very least, I'd say 25-30% more attacks need to be safe on block no matter what other changes are made.

Also, while the universal sidestep can be somewhat limited, several characters have attack or special notation sidesteps. These almost always work much better than the universal step and will evade an entire string in some cases.

The notation for the universal step is now either 22_88 or 2+HPK_8+HPK. Some adjustments need to be made to the 22_88 notation though. It currently causes issues with general movement and 33 attacks or crouch dashing.

Yeah, I know mid crushes are already in the game for some characters, but this should be a well used tactic, in my opinion. There should be more of it.

I don't approve of mid-crush attacks at all. It's one thing to step an attack that doesn't track, but nothing should crush a mid. I use a mid to avoid someone crushing my high or low. If you can also crush a mid, that messes up the system and creates more of a guessing game, which we're trying to avoid.

 

[AKNova7]

I think there would need to be a greater reward for not extending the stun or a higher risk in taking the gamble. With the adjustments you're suggesting, I don't think many DOA players would see a huge benefit in stun > launch, and would therefore continue to play the stun game.

That's so strange. I'm really surprised to hear most people wouldn't take the guaranteed damage, I thought that would be what most of the anti-hold craziness was about. Adding guaranteed damage. I suppose not. Though it might go a good way towards helping those characters that have to play the Mix-Up game.

It depends on the string. The problem right now is that most of the tracking attacks seem to be at the end of a string... and unsafe. It's just a really odd system that encourages string delays and free canceling so you can have a false sense of safety, then gives you a forced guessing game at the end of the string between a safe high, unsafe mid that doesn't track, or unsafe low that does track.

Doesn't sound like a solid fighting game system by any means in my eyes.

Also, while the universal sidestep can be somewhat limited, several characters have attack or special notation sidesteps. These almost always work much better than the universal step and will evade an entire string in some cases.

The notation for the universal step is now either 22_88 or 2+HPK_8+HPK. Some adjustments need to be made to the 22_88 notation though. It currently causes issues with general movement and 33 attacks or crouch dashing.

That's true, the character unique sidesteps were always really good, actually. It was relatively pretty easy to blow up certain attacks with that.

Also, they still have the 2HPK_8HPK command for sidestepping? When I heard that 22_88 was the command, I thought they took the HPK variant out? If they kept the HPK version in, that'll work fine.

I don't approve of mid-crush attacks at all. It's one thing to step an attack that doesn't track, but nothing should crush a mid. I use a mid to avoid someone crushing my high or low. If you can also crush a mid, that messes up the system and creates more of a guessing game, which we're trying to avoid.

Well, if you think about it, sidestepping linear mids is like a really slow, doesn't always hit, move-selective version of a mid crush. But, no, I don't like mid crushes themselves either, but being able to sidestep a launcher or linear move in a string, for example, I think should be possible. As far as I'm concerned, guessing games are alright until the hit confirm, but not from true mid crushes, because they normally crush more than mid. As far as I'm concerned, tracking mids should not be able to be crushed or stepped, but should definitely have a downfall to them.

 

[DrDogg]

That's so strange. I'm really surprised to hear most people wouldn't take the guaranteed damage, I thought that would be what most of the anti-hold craziness was about. Adding guaranteed damage. I suppose not. Though it might go a good way towards helping those characters that have to play the Mix-Up game.

People who play other fighting games will go straight for the guaranteed damage. However, you have to understand the mind of the dedicated DOA players. For example, Manny doesn't like Critical Burst. He thinks it's a bad addition to the game. He won't elaborate on it, and instead said he'd post an article, but that was some time ago, so it's unlikely we'll ever get a proper explanation.

Still, players like him will go for more damage in the guessing game instead of guaranteed damage and that will only upset people who dislike the forced guessing. You need to give the DOA players a good reason to go for guaranteed damage. Remember, many of them don't play other fighting games at a competitive level, so they like the guessing and the ability to escape virtually any situation.

Doesn't sound like a solid fighting game system by any means in my eyes.

I never said it was. Just explaining the system.

Also, they still have the 2HPK_8HPK command for sidestepping? When I heard that 22_88 was the command, I thought they took the HPK variant out? If they kept the HPK version in, that'll work fine.

It still needs some adjusting, but I prefer 2_8+HPK to the 22_88 notation.

 

[Shinigamimatt]

Depends on the opponent for me. If they feel like a threat, I'll go for the guaranteed damage every time. Just like DOA's before. If it's an easy opponent, I'll do whatever I'm in the mood for.

 

[DrDogg]

Depends on the opponent for me. If they feel like a threat, I'll go for the guaranteed damage every time. Just like DOA's before. If it's an easy opponent, I'll do whatever I'm in the mood for.

I was strictly referring to the highest level of play.

 

[Arnell Long]

DrDogg, although Zack has more unsafe moves than Kasumi, he also has more safe moves than she does "she has like 2 true safe moves". I notice when Hatrify and HighGuy fights with him, they stick mainly with his safe moves which I remember like around 6.

Question: We know Zack is still unsafe, but from the amount of what you played in the E3 Build, does he still have more safe moves than Kasumi at this point?

 

[grap3fruitman]

although Zack has more unsafe moves than Kasumi, he also has more safe moves than she does

wat

 

[Arnell Long]

wat

Lets say said character has 90 moves and the other has 80...

Now, the one that has 90 moves could have 75 unsafe moves with 15 being safe while the other character that has 80 would have lets say 70 moves being unsafe and 10 of them being safe.

We have to hold everyone's hand when we Post here because if it's not written in College format, it's suddenly non-comprehensible. I'm like where is the "I don't get, so do you mean this" or something of the like...anywho hope that cleared things up a bit...

 

[Blazeincarnated]

LMAOO!!!

 

[Allan Paris]

random video

What does this have to do with the discussion?