Quantity mattered the moment you started playing this game. It is pattern based and the less you have to do something in certain situations the worst it becomes for you when playing against high level players. So yeah, quantity matters in that regard. So going from your count he only has, like, what, 3 options and 1 of the 3 you yourself do not like to use much and I wouldn't recommend it either to close any gap even if you are not going to do the P. That leaves him with 2 reliable attacks to close the gap. I did not say you needed "50" lol, but you for damn sure need more than 2.
There's enough variation in it to survive. A long-reaching jailing high, and a safe, very long reaching tracking mid. I don't need them to HIT you to close the gap. I just need to use them. Even then, roll by itself closes the gap quickly and can easily be canceled into a throw, or instead of using the safe mid punch, use the tracking mid that also has acceptable range. I'm just throwing those 3 out there because they're usually considered his best. Apart from that, he also has 6P+K which covers a decent distance and is safe, 9PP, and a few others. If the moves has the same properties, I'd say yeah, more moves would be great. Yet they completely deal with every scenario, so I don't see why you're insisting he needs more.
I can assure you in a 10 match stretch you won't close the gap with him as well as you think you can. I am going from experience playing against players that are good with him, not saying that you are not. I just know when options are exhausted from a character because they typically stand there when there options are not longer working.
When will they not work, though? Roll be can be guess countered, but he has another option from roll as well as a fast cancel from it. 66H+KK is the only one I can see people stopping, but only if they duck or double SS, in which case 4K will get a SDS or, again, he use Roll P.
Ayane jailed you at +7 (in vanilla), Zack is jailing at -4 I believe, so you can't even go on the offensive against a grapple character. I know you didn't say he was "amazing" and what I am trying to tell you is that, him closing a gap will prove to be difficult for him once the game sets in.
I wasn't saying the frames were the same. I was just saying it jailed. Considering the range on it and it only being -4, it's STILL useful to close the gap. He doesn't need to instantly attack after it. It's, again, just to eliminate distance between the two players.
OK, and when she relaunches you back into the wall the damage becomes crazy, exceeding well over 100 points of damage. The same fro Eliot, Mila, Hayate, Gen Fu, Ryu, and the list goes on (sorry but I am not going to list majority of the cast, you should get my point by now). So like I said, " The majority of the cast can do away with you once you are wall splatted. There's nothing special about that, and I am not overlooking that he gets 71-74 points of damage from a CH hit from a wall splat.
For every wall splat exchanged (with most being on CH) Zack will accumulate around 20 more points than the rest of the cast (a little less if they're at a large angle to the wall). Those 20 points add up quickly, whether you choose to disregard that or not is not my concern. I know you're not overlooking it, but you seem to simply not care, when much of the game revolves around positioning your opponent into a wall. If Zack gets more damage from those situations, more power to him.
Yeah, sorry for mentioning a jab. I was thinking of something else while typing hat. Still, mids stop it 11i or 12i, whether you need to be fast to react or not, it turns his transition into a guessing game. The thing is, most people don't know that so they take the transition. Whether than dealing with it and forcing your hand to throw out something unsafe. Between you and I, I will poke you for doing it. Other players will do the same once they know to do it, well high level layers or players with good reactions to do so.
I am not discounting his mix-up, you just won't use 4K as much to transition. That is not the focal point of his mix-ups but it adds to it. He can survive without it. I know you don't need to be Sarah or Rig for +frames to work but both of them tend to either shut characters down when they do get it and they force you to read them. Zack's +frames from 4K is a guessing game once players realize and pick up the reaction to poke him out of his best options from it. As slow as Busa is when he picks up +2 the majority of the cast has to read him before hitting a button. a 9i jabber slightly limits what he can do from it.
And as I said, 4K isn't something I usually bring up when talking about mixup anyways. You were criticizing it, so I explained why it's more useful than you made it out to be. But again, duck crushes all highs, so he can only be beaten out by i11-i12 mids, and that's only if he uses P instead of P+K. We should just drop the 4K2 discussion anyways because that wasn't germane to my other points on the matter.
I never said a character needs many tools.
You JUST got done saying that quantity matters, AKA you need more tools.
I do know that you need more than what Zack is offering for you to be comfortable with closing space with him. H+K is not "phenomenal" , with your opponents back to a wall yes, that kick causes great pressure. In the middle of the floor he might as well be at neutral if it is blocked at range. I presume you are mentioning this tool for stopping on coming attacks or possibly counter poking whiffing players? He is not poking with this at close range, so this attack serves no real threat the lot of the time, and it being a high does not help either.
I'm very comfortable closing space with Zack. My friends offline aren't too familiar with anti-spacing tools, but it's never been problematic against anyone I've played online, either. Not to say others wouldn't provide more challenge, but he's really not lacking in ways to cut the distance. He has enough variety and safety from his moves to not be afraid to throw them out
What are you talking about with H+K? It doesn't push them away on block, so it's not only useful near a wall. I don't know what makes you think that.
For the 4K and then doing his duck S from it, some characters have tracking mids that follow up after them, and some have linear but delay-able mids. So is his duck SS blowing up the delay-able mids or is it a timing thing? It's still a guess for your +2.
It's not much of a guess on my part, but rather more on theirs. I have a lot more options. 6T on block or counter. 6P for anything that's not an i11-i12 mid, whether that's a block or SS or jab or whatever. And P+K or 2/8 for mids. If they're using a tracking mid, it's not going to be i12.
I did, I named like 4 or 5 of them. lol. I am not going through that entire list you have for PROs. I just picked out the ones that stood out as I looked over it. The ones I did name, are not negatives but if the rest of the cast can do it or Zack has issues in some areas you can't name those as PROs. Like him being "extremely powerful" as you put it.. Who the hell isn't when given that chance? The majority of the cast has long delay-able strings, that is nothing exclusive to him or special. Some characters even do it better than him, looking at Christie and Hitomi on that one.
You specifically say "given the chance to be" when it comes to power. Zack doesn't even need a normal chance. He just needs a stun, similar to Mila and Gen. He doesn't need HCH damage to take away huge chunks of life with minimal guesswork. For the delayable strings, you can count that as a neutral thing if you want. I just consider his 2K/3K and 6K delays to be extremely good.
I didn't read too much into anything, I read and comprehend what I saw just fine. I am paraphrasing here, but you said he has safe/far reaching attacks to get back in if he has to. My counter argument to that is, he has no range while Ayane does. Any decent Ayane player should be looking for attacks hitting the air when a character is not close to them or trying to close a gap.
You did, actually. You assumed I meant something that I didn't, i.e. you read too much into it. I never mentioned that he was safe when it came to whiffing on Ayane, but you had said "What you are saying is that you can whiff safe attacks while spacing or closing in on Ayane, of all characters." So yeah, you did assume more than you should have. That's not the point, though, since it doesn't even contribute to the conversation.
Zack has no range? Are we talking about the same character? Yeah, she definitely has better range, but to say he has none is a gross overstatement.
With the first paragraph I can tell you are not fighting against an Ayane that is utilizing her to the fullest or properly. Her Jab should be put on your block or hit a good amount of the time. It leads into so much an Ayane player has no reason not to be doing it. Her low jab may not give frame advantage but it's neutral and it causes its own complication due to Ayane having more range on it than most characters. Meaning that she can poke you at a good range and then CH you for hitting a button after she pokes with it. I mentioned kick as far as a poke and not to string anyone.
That's why I later changed that paragraph. I wrote it very early in the morning, and didn't think about her jab too much until later. Again, though, it's only tied with Zack, and both have good mixup from it, so it's not a plus in her favor or his. And considering she only matches him in jabs, the neutral from 2P won't do her much when she can't compete with Zack's mid speed and their jabs are tied, so while she has crushes to get a CH, he has faster mids.
So you understand that you will have to go mid most of the time while facing her to avoid being crushed. So lets go into his strings. 6K is the lesser because he either puts himself at a disadvantage or he is highly unsafe after a follow up. 6P is your best option here and probably what Zack should be leaning towards more. 6K is good for it's speed but as a string there's nothing to worry about. Now, at this point in time in which you focusing your game on not being crushed easily this is where Ayane's jab comes into play. Also, your mids have no range, and if you are not close enough to her she is subject to get under those too.
His 6P doesn't have much range, that's true. 6K is barely better, but the followups from both provide decent range, and even then, if they're too far spaced out, he can use 4K2 on her considering she can't beat him out with mids from it. P+K, while not fast, covers a decent amount of ground and has a high damage output. It also can't be crushed. She has faster/safer ranged hits, but that's assuming she's always at the perfect distance for him to whiff everything, which simply won't be the case. When they're actually up close, he has the better options.
I am not even talking about her 64T, that is 12i. I am speaking on 6T and 4T which are both 7i. Overall, I see that we both agree that she is throwing better than he is.
Yes, she is better at throwing. I still don't think 6/4T are better options than Zack's 6T, but her 64T and 214T are better than most every throw Zack has.
To be clear at what I am getting at, so you and everyone else can understand. If a 50/50 is being presented after something, it is a guess. I understand why people put 50/50s on such a high pedestal, it is because of this game and how it plays. Still, a composed player has nothing to fear from a 50/50 which most if not all good players are. So with that being said, a throw that slings you around in an environmental game is just as problematic as throw that gives a 50/50.
It's called a 50/50 for the opponent's sake. In Zack's case, his odds are far more favorable than that. Boiled down for the opponent, it's either they block or attack (or counter if they're feeling lucky). In Zack's case, he either goes for another throw, a mid kick that has multiple follow ups, a mid punch that has multiple followups, another midkick string with multiple followups, a high punch, one of his two stances, or other options to prevent the opponent from moving anywhere.
So again, I do not a see a 5-5 MU between Ayane vs Zack. I await any counter argument for it.
I still can't call it 6-4. The match leans in her favor, but I don't think it's enough to change the numbers. Personally, I'd say 4.5-5.5, but those numbers are obnoxious to look at. Whenever I consider her tools, I think of Zack's counter to them. He has an answer for most every move she has, and she probably has the same for the most part.
I didn't say you said all. Those throws also end with her stunning you, while his 6T PP does not. You pretty much said his 6T rolls on her in this MU, and it does not. That is what I am getting at, to say that his 6T outclasses most of her throws is an overstatement.
I said 6T outclasses her two throws that can be followed up with hits, not that it "rolls on her." BT T is the only one that's really problematic, as you do have to guess if you should SE or not. 214T leaves you in a stun, but it's SEable and guarantees nothing after the first two hits unless at a wall.
Ok, I see. So he deals with it like most characters, having to poke her out of it. She can still use it she just needs to know where and when.
He has an easier time of doing it, however. As 6P won't be beaten out by any of her BKO hits, she'll either be hit out of BKO immediately after 33P4P or its variations or during his 6PKKK2K string, as she can't duck/attack fast enough between any of the kicks.
With this entire paragraph you have pointed out how she is better at poking. Which will prevent you from putting your strings on the screen at will. You said the same thing that I said when it comes to him crushing her. You have to be reading for highs, and with that being said she crushes him in the same light if not better seeing as her pokes (11i, 12i, and a 13i mid) can bee turned into crushes while Zack's can't. I don't need to count on my 6P beating Zack entirely. Kasumi also has a 9i jab.
Yes, she's better at poking with singular hits, but Zack is better at using the majority of any given string to attack. As soon as he gets a hit in, she's in just as much trouble as he was when it comes to hitting him out of his strings. while her poking game makes it difficult to start up a string, his strings make it difficult for her to start poking Landing a hit with Zack becomes easier since his SS P is incredibly useful with much of Kasumi's pokes are linear.
1P should be used for crushing/poking, and putting it into a mix-up should Kasumi's second mind. 1P also has a crushing follow-up, and 33P does not have a follow-up as well as being unsafe the moment it is done. So to say that it is more useful than 1P, we are just going to have to disagree, it really doesn't change much in what we are discussing. 236P gives a decent height on CH, I can't remember the juggle damage from it but it too can pick up environmental damage just like Zack's.
I don't use her enough myself to know the exact properties from those moves, so thanks for sharing.
I know the distance both of those attacks cover. The distance is good enough for the range in which Kasumi should be using them. As far as you SS them, that's where 66H+K comes into to play, supporting that mix-up. Even in high level play that kick can be landed enough to where you won't SS. I am not saying that 66H+K will be spammed or constantly put on the screen, but just enough to make you think twice before you SS. Once players start reacting to it, Kasumi's job is done, she wants you to react to it. I know the weakness of the kick which is why it shouldn't be done enough for it pose an issue or her. There's also 3P+K that covers a good distance.
But you're assuming they're only at a distance of a little less than midscreen, then. My whole point in those moves not comparing to his is that Zack has access (from both a normal launch and from a generic standing combo) to create a full screen's gap between him and the opponent. Kasumi can't close that easily, and she needs to be comparatively close to Zack for any of those moves to connect. This means she'll have to get well within range for Zack's own gap-closers and spacing tools (Sway 6P+K which is used both to create and maintain distance in the safest way possible).
I don't need to sidestep any of the moves you mentioned (though I full well could if I wanted to). 66P is unsafe and the followup can be crushed, so I'll just block. 66K is unsafe as is one of its followups, so I'll just block (and possibly SS the second hit, though you won't be using 66H+K in that situation). Running T means you'll be running the entire distance of the map once I hit you, in which case I'll just be using 4K or sway 6P+K to hit you before you even get close.
In your mind, Kasumi is fairly close to Zack. That's the case with a few of his combos, but off of any launch, or just when standing and you're blocking, he can push her so far out that all of those become trivial to deal with.
Now, if I were the one having to run up, what does Kasumi offer to keep him from getting that close? Running P, while it ends up resetting the situation, is safe on block, has a respectable range, and does a lot of damage if it hits. We've already gone over 66H+KK and Roll P, but then he also has Roll canceling in general.
When Zack tries to get back in, Kasumi doesn't have much safe ranged tools to keep him from charging in and hitting her with a long distance attack. She can try to use some of them, but unlike Zack's options, most of them are unsafe. Again, my goal with Zack isn't even to hit you, just to recover lost distance. I can do that easily and not worry about being punish thrown most of the time. Kasumi doesn't have that privilege.
Me speaking on her rush-down tools, was just that, rush-down. both attacks are 16i and one them has a tracking follow-up (66PP). Granted that one can be ducked, which is why you stop at 66P and play accordingly from that point. Zack does not have a rush-down, where she does, so if she wants to get in she has a better time at doing that than he does. You can't block and punish if you are caught SS by Kasumi's 66H+K. When you do, it allows Kasumi to put 66P and 66K on the screen while rushing down and she doesn't have to worry about Zack blatantly SS her. I am not theory fighting with this, man, I am telling what is done first hand when Zack tries to answer her for rushing him down.
As I said in the last few paragraphs, her rushdown will mean little when I can out-reach most of those moves with my own while maintaining safety. In most cases, I'm just going to sit there or use his ranged tools to intercept her, so 66H+K wouldn't play much of a roll when it comes to her rushdown.
Of course, you're right in Zack's rushdown being worse than Kasumi's, but she doesn't have much to stop one, where at least Zack can check much of her own in safe, reliable ways.
Ok, like I said before, you jail Kasumi at -4, I believe it's -4. You can't do anything, while putting Zack himself in the desired range Kasumi needs to be in. I understand the tool and it is a good one seeing as he can close a gap with it or get characters off him if his spacing is right.
Again, I don't need to do anything, so the -4 (while not desirable) doesn't do me much harm. The purpose of that move is to get in on the opponent, and that's it. The only reason I'd ever need to use it would be if you're at health advantage, where you'll win if I just sit far back anyways. Of course she has the advantage close up, but at least I'll have a chance once again, and that chance is far easier to acquire with Zack than it would be for Kasumi if the tables were turned.
So like I said, they are even. One of them has somewhat of a decent keep-out game (Zack) while the other can rush-down better than the other (Kasumi). Neither one of them is bullying each other in the spacing game, so how is he better?
No, they're definitely not even. He has an easier/safer time getting back in and an easier/safer time keeping her out.
He has nothing to eliminate all or her options while rushing down, what are you talking about?
I meant to say most. A properly timed 4K will beat out all of her options, while a SS eliminates all but one, though again, her rushdown isn't at all intimidating, as most every tool of hers is throw punishable.
I'll finish the last bit later, but I have to make supper and do some cleaning.[/quote]
