Chapstick
Well-Known Member
Hitomi imo would be better beginner character.
Was that necessary? O-o
Characters Why we play Kasumi (Casual Thread)
- Thread starter J.D.E.
- Start date
Heeeey guys, it's all fine.
Chap said that Hitomi would be a better beginner character from his point of view, therefore I think he also wouldn't recommend Kasumi if he get's asked by someone which character would be adequate. Question answered for me
.
It would be interesting indeed to figure out how different opinions are from different player levels are. Personally, I wouldn't measure that on online ranks, but newer players usually do that. Anyway, so if you would have to give an advice, you wouldn't disadvise Kasumi in any way because you don't see any differences in the difficulty of using a character and learning the game, right?
Chap said that Hitomi would be a better beginner character from his point of view, therefore I think he also wouldn't recommend Kasumi if he get's asked by someone which character would be adequate. Question answered for me
.It would be interesting indeed to figure out how different opinions are from different player levels are. Personally, I wouldn't measure that on online ranks, but newer players usually do that. Anyway, so if you would have to give an advice, you wouldn't disadvise Kasumi in any way because you don't see any differences in the difficulty of using a character and learning the game, right?
I actually think Hitomi is perfect for beginners. Her commands are very easy. Kasumi isn't a bad choice, but compared to DOA4, Kasumi got a lot of harder commands. She's still as unsafe as ever(which means very) and her only real damage comes from her teleports and juggles. She'd be my third choice, though. Ein and Hitomi are more user friendly in my opinion.
Yup. I was agreeing with Chapstick, since I knew where it was going anyway. Also, There were many Hitomi players in the first tournament before the game came out for the same reasons. No one knew the new characters, so everyone went to Hitomi because she stayed the same from the demo and has easy damage.Thank you , that is waht I mean ! Stay behind your opinions and explain it what you think so that people can comprehend you
Nah, it's fine. Discussions are always welcome.Such an epic explaination ! Now I understand ! Thank You
I hope I wasnt the bad guy again.
Abridgement from our discussion that may also interest you guys:
[22:10:34] ToKyo PewPew: Because she's straight-forward
[22:10:42] Ten: allow me to explain to you my concept of a good beginner character
[22:11:04] Ten: A character that is straight forward and teaches you how to apply many things in order to achieve victory.
[22:11:14] Ten: Now lets look at this in relation to Kasumi
[22:11:56] Ten: 1. She is ultra unsafe - Teaches players to be wary of what they are doing and find a way to effectively apply offense without being too unsafe and getting punished alot.
[22:12:27] Ten: 2. Her range game is lacking - teaches players to be patient and precise during spacing and footsies
[22:13:02] Ten: 3.She has frame advantage in neutral - teaches players how to fish for CH and utilize thier offensive advantage to apply pressure.
[22:14:19 | Bearbeitet 22:15:33] Ten: 4. Great tools for CH, delays and a legitimate free cancel offense - This teaches players the fundamentals of DOA offense. Its thanks to Kasumi that I have the reaction speed to spot free canceling
[22:15:06] Ten: and also have an idea of what a good delayable string is
[22:15:09] Ten: as well as a bad one
[22:15:54] ToKyo PewPew: This point of view is very interesting, I've never seen it from this side
[22:16:33] ToKyo PewPew: Especially the first two paragraphs
[22:17:09 | Bearbeitet 22:17:21] Ten: 5. stun game tools have variety - she has access to guaranteed stuns, sitdown stuns and lift stuns. these stuns are the best stuns in DOA5 and her having them allows you to get introduced to using them.
[22:18:39] Ten: 6.She has parries - the significance isnt that she has a parry, its that her having them allows players to make a defensive read
[22:18:54] Ten: "Is a high attack or mid attack coming?" then use the appropriate parry
[22:19:39] Ten: its similar to how sometimes youll see me do 2p once or twice to you
[22:19:41] Ten: as Ein
[22:19:44] Ten: then mid punch hold
[22:20:05] Ten: thats an example of a defensive read
[22:20:55] Ten: Kasumi having parries makes this even easier to do because you only have to choose between high or mid
[22:21:06] Ten: rather than high, mid punch or mid kick
[22:21:31] Ten: hence making it easy to use for beginners but at the same time teaching them a fundamental skill in DOA
[22:22:35] Ten: i say kasumi is hard for players that have never played fighting games before because they have no concept of these things
[22:22:41] Ten: so they have to learn them
[22:23:06 | Bearbeitet 22:23:20] Ten: to players like myself that already were familar to fighting games before DOA I find her moderate at the competitive level
[22:23:27] Ten: ill explain why when i get back
[22:23:56] ToKyo PewPew: I have to go off soon, you can continue another time^^
[22:24:55] ToKyo PewPew: I really like these explanation, I will remind you to tell me more about your thoughts later
[22:10:42] Ten: allow me to explain to you my concept of a good beginner character
[22:11:04] Ten: A character that is straight forward and teaches you how to apply many things in order to achieve victory.
[22:11:14] Ten: Now lets look at this in relation to Kasumi
[22:11:56] Ten: 1. She is ultra unsafe - Teaches players to be wary of what they are doing and find a way to effectively apply offense without being too unsafe and getting punished alot.
[22:12:27] Ten: 2. Her range game is lacking - teaches players to be patient and precise during spacing and footsies
[22:13:02] Ten: 3.She has frame advantage in neutral - teaches players how to fish for CH and utilize thier offensive advantage to apply pressure.
[22:14:19 | Bearbeitet 22:15:33] Ten: 4. Great tools for CH, delays and a legitimate free cancel offense - This teaches players the fundamentals of DOA offense. Its thanks to Kasumi that I have the reaction speed to spot free canceling
[22:15:06] Ten: and also have an idea of what a good delayable string is
[22:15:09] Ten: as well as a bad one
[22:15:54] ToKyo PewPew: This point of view is very interesting, I've never seen it from this side
[22:16:33] ToKyo PewPew: Especially the first two paragraphs
[22:17:09 | Bearbeitet 22:17:21] Ten: 5. stun game tools have variety - she has access to guaranteed stuns, sitdown stuns and lift stuns. these stuns are the best stuns in DOA5 and her having them allows you to get introduced to using them.
[22:18:39] Ten: 6.She has parries - the significance isnt that she has a parry, its that her having them allows players to make a defensive read
[22:18:54] Ten: "Is a high attack or mid attack coming?" then use the appropriate parry
[22:19:39] Ten: its similar to how sometimes youll see me do 2p once or twice to you
[22:19:41] Ten: as Ein
[22:19:44] Ten: then mid punch hold
[22:20:05] Ten: thats an example of a defensive read
[22:20:55] Ten: Kasumi having parries makes this even easier to do because you only have to choose between high or mid
[22:21:06] Ten: rather than high, mid punch or mid kick
[22:21:31] Ten: hence making it easy to use for beginners but at the same time teaching them a fundamental skill in DOA
[22:22:35] Ten: i say kasumi is hard for players that have never played fighting games before because they have no concept of these things
[22:22:41] Ten: so they have to learn them
[22:23:06 | Bearbeitet 22:23:20] Ten: to players like myself that already were familar to fighting games before DOA I find her moderate at the competitive level
[22:23:27] Ten: ill explain why when i get back
[22:23:56] ToKyo PewPew: I have to go off soon, you can continue another time^^
[22:24:55] ToKyo PewPew: I really like these explanation, I will remind you to tell me more about your thoughts later
What are your thoughts about the parries then?
Her normal parries aren't any easier to pull off than normal holds. They only grant damage if you follow them up with a combo. I can't see them teaching a new player anything that normal holds couldn't. They would only teach players to spam holds instead of reading incoming moves. Her advance parries are obviously out of the question of course.
Okay, but note that Ten was talking about her parries while referring to defensive reads. I'm not sure what you mean with saying that they aren't easier to pull off, but since her mid parry catches both kicks and punches, it gives a higher chance for guessing right, which makes it easier for beginners indeed.
Like he said, they help to get rewards easier while learning the guessing game and characters movesets because you start by just deciding between high or mid. Since we speak about this in terms of defense, it doesn't matter if they grant any damage imo.
Like he said, they help to get rewards easier while learning the guessing game and characters movesets because you start by just deciding between high or mid. Since we speak about this in terms of defense, it doesn't matter if they grant any damage imo.
I mean that they aren't easier because they are a single button press just like normal holds. Also, her parries take longer to recover from. I don't consider her parries defensive. That's wrong to me. Holds are defensive because they get you out of bad situations. Her parries actually put you in bad situations. You can only use them at the start of something. If you're getting hit by a combo you can't use her parries. You actually take a risk in using her parries in the hopes that you get rewarded for guessing right. You wait for your opponent to throw out an attack and try to parry it instead of just guarding their unsafe moves. A new player should not be trying to play the guessing game. They should be learning spacing and guarding. The only reason you use her parries is for offense. There's no reason to let go of the guard button just to guess an attack and teleport behind the person unless you want to do damage to them. Her parries are offensive.
What is it about them that you don't agree with? Because her parries are fearsome imo, but often get misplaced because a lot of players don't know how they're meant to be used.
Just that they're not a good habit for new players to use. They're a great tool. But they're a risk as opposed to just blocking. Unlike holds which can be used when you're in trouble, Parries can only be used before the offense. You're choosing not to guard or back off. Holds should be used after the person gets through. Parries can't be used after you already messed up.
That's true but her parries are defensive. I came up with the assumption that they're situationals that makes the opponent play honest because you as the Kasumi player have to go & search out when & where they can be placed. I do want them to look into the window of strings of making them to where you could place them within strings easier. Like they don't have guarantee combos (though I would prefer it & would be super nice), but they would make the opponent think twice about chucking out a string without being aware of the parries.
That's another issue in general that I have when discussing matches against other characters to players. The 1st thing that they do in general when saying sideways things about her is downplay her parries through theory. No, they don't always guarantee launchers, but you have to respect the frame advantage that she carries after them.
EDIT: Some some characters you can use it after a blow. Helena is an example. Her going into her BKO stance. Go into the lab & check it.
That's another issue in general that I have when discussing matches against other characters to players. The 1st thing that they do in general when saying sideways things about her is downplay her parries through theory. No, they don't always guarantee launchers, but you have to respect the frame advantage that she carries after them.
EDIT: Some some characters you can use it after a blow. Helena is an example. Her going into her BKO stance. Go into the lab & check it.
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They're amazing in my opinion. But they are risk/reward as opposed to safety. New players should avoid those situations until they're comfortable with the game. That's the only thing I disagree with Tenryuga on. If we're specifically taking about someone wanting to get into Kasumi, I would definitely recommend learning her parries, though.
IDK you read what I said when edited, but she can place them in between some strings. Helena's 4P2P going into her BKO stance is one example. They are also defensive it's just that you have to place them. I do agree that it's not good for new players to just throw them out without knowing what they're used for.
I didn't see it, thanks. And yeah, you can also throw them in at any very long animation move or delayed string like Busa's 6KP. I just consider that offensive still, because you have to stop guarding to throw it out in the hopes of damage.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
Both holds and parries have the same applications in neutral which is to disrupt the opponents offense. The difference is that parries are easier to use because you are not making the same type of read you are with a hold. With a hold its mid punch, mid kick, high or low. With a parry this becomes high, mid or low. This means you do not even have to decide between mid punch and kick you can just ask yourself "Is a mid coming?" and use the mid parry. The fact that they have a higher sucess rate than holds makes them tools that are easier for beginners to use.
To answer the question I think a player should use who they like because speaking from experience you will be more motivated and have more fun learning. But if a complete beginner comes to me with no idea who they want to use I'm going to answer them from a competitive standpoint. This basically means I will not say "use who you like" I will ask what type of playstyle they like and recommend characters that cater to that playstyle depending on the level of fighting game experience they have. If they have fighting game experience / fundamentals and execution I will recommend more than just beginner characters.
It is important for players that have no understanding of a games mechanics or fundamentals to start with a beginner character. This makes it so less time is wasted learning juggles and setups and more time is spent developing actual fighting game skills and understanding the games mechanics. These types of skills are valuable since they can transfer over to ALL characters and are why you will see players like myself using 4-5 characters played decently - above average. It also helps you to learn how to counter the cast from a general sense instead of a character specific sense.
Players that have no understanding of a game or fundamentals that start off with a advanced character get left behind. While you spent the last week learning how to juggle somebody or setup a laucher I was leveling up my spacing, my defense, my reads, my whiff punishment, my reactions, my footsies, learning the frame data for frame traps and what is punishable etc and a ton of other things ON TOP of juggling and setting up big damage. Players that focus on learning how to juggle and launch without developing fundamentals and other things will always find themselves wondering why they can't get that combo or setup they spent the last week learning to hit.
If you play a game competitively you don't want to be left behind by the competition. You want to be at its level or exceed it. This is why it's important for beginners to start off in a fighting game on the right track by using a chracter that caters to thier playstyle and is of the appropriate difficulty for them.
As for Kasumi I think she is a solid choice for the reasons pew posted from a chat I had with him. Players that have never played a fighter before will struggle with her execution but it will be worth it. A beginner character isnt a character that feeds you wins either. Ein is the easiest character to use in this game yet if you have no patience, defense, ability to space or whiff punish you will get wrecked playing as him. A good beginner character isn't necessarily one that holds your hand as you make mistakes. I would actually never recommend a character like that for a beginner because they will develop alot of bad habits.
I would say Hitomi is the best character for beginners that want to learn this game but also don't feel like learning through getting thier asses beat 24/7. Some players that are learning a game get discouraged or frusttrated when they lose alot and I have seen it happen to players that try learning Kasumi. Complaints about her unsafety, her execution, her damage not being high as others you name it. Pew here is one of the few examples of what happens when a player starts off with the right character.
@Akali
That is a defensive read. Any time you are blocking your opponents attacks and trying to find a way to escape from thier offense that is called a defensive read. Some defensive reads allow you to start your offense such as counterpoking somebody in between thier strings while you are blocking or using parries that guarantee a stun or damage.
To answer the question I think a player should use who they like because speaking from experience you will be more motivated and have more fun learning. But if a complete beginner comes to me with no idea who they want to use I'm going to answer them from a competitive standpoint. This basically means I will not say "use who you like" I will ask what type of playstyle they like and recommend characters that cater to that playstyle depending on the level of fighting game experience they have. If they have fighting game experience / fundamentals and execution I will recommend more than just beginner characters.
It is important for players that have no understanding of a games mechanics or fundamentals to start with a beginner character. This makes it so less time is wasted learning juggles and setups and more time is spent developing actual fighting game skills and understanding the games mechanics. These types of skills are valuable since they can transfer over to ALL characters and are why you will see players like myself using 4-5 characters played decently - above average. It also helps you to learn how to counter the cast from a general sense instead of a character specific sense.
Players that have no understanding of a game or fundamentals that start off with a advanced character get left behind. While you spent the last week learning how to juggle somebody or setup a laucher I was leveling up my spacing, my defense, my reads, my whiff punishment, my reactions, my footsies, learning the frame data for frame traps and what is punishable etc and a ton of other things ON TOP of juggling and setting up big damage. Players that focus on learning how to juggle and launch without developing fundamentals and other things will always find themselves wondering why they can't get that combo or setup they spent the last week learning to hit.
If you play a game competitively you don't want to be left behind by the competition. You want to be at its level or exceed it. This is why it's important for beginners to start off in a fighting game on the right track by using a chracter that caters to thier playstyle and is of the appropriate difficulty for them.
As for Kasumi I think she is a solid choice for the reasons pew posted from a chat I had with him. Players that have never played a fighter before will struggle with her execution but it will be worth it. A beginner character isnt a character that feeds you wins either. Ein is the easiest character to use in this game yet if you have no patience, defense, ability to space or whiff punish you will get wrecked playing as him. A good beginner character isn't necessarily one that holds your hand as you make mistakes. I would actually never recommend a character like that for a beginner because they will develop alot of bad habits.
I would say Hitomi is the best character for beginners that want to learn this game but also don't feel like learning through getting thier asses beat 24/7. Some players that are learning a game get discouraged or frusttrated when they lose alot and I have seen it happen to players that try learning Kasumi. Complaints about her unsafety, her execution, her damage not being high as others you name it. Pew here is one of the few examples of what happens when a player starts off with the right character.
@Akali
That is a defensive read. Any time you are blocking your opponents attacks and trying to find a way to escape from thier offense that is called a defensive read. Some defensive reads allow you to start your offense such as counterpoking somebody in between thier strings while you are blocking or using parries that guarantee a stun or damage.
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Imo, it depends on the parry. While her advanced parries are clearly considered to be an offensive tool, I still would consider her normal parries as an (almost only) defensive tool. For example, if spacing game goes on, you still can use them if you guess that your opponent is going for an attack (jumping kick or similar) while running in.
This is even more useful if you are back to a wall or a corner, just the fact that she can switch positions out of that easily is it worth to use them more instead of a normal hold. Since you are still able to get out of a dangerous situation (dangerzone, e.g., ...) or just create some space to breath, there's no need to think you have to go for offense immediatly after it.
As long as you use a move to escape from your opponents attacks, it is clearly a defensive tool.
Btw, epic answer as always Ten, love these walls of text. xD
So far, thanks for your opinions guys, it turned out to be very interesting.