Where to next for DOA6? Diving into the mechanics found in the DOAFES Build at CouchWarriors Crossup (Australia) with Video

[Berzerk!]

Also, allow for hard knock downs from moves that slam to the ground, even off of a juggle where a ground attack/throw can be guaranteed in these situations. We don't really need to have force techs, but with the way wake up kicks are so strong at this point, I feel like something needs to be added to the oki game to make it more interesting.

They are reverting so many elements in this game to mimic the game play of 2/3, such as the lower stun threshold and consistent launch heights, that I would like to see them consider something like this as well. It will get rid of a potentially overly oppressive force tech system and replace it with a ground game more akin to the series' design philosophy, but at the same time not one dimensional.

PRECISELY. The system needs to provide different choices and paths to damage, creating play variety and options to build comebacks off a reset.

Juggling an opponent, you can go for full damage combo OR, you can forgo some damage, land a Ground Slam attack which does a Hard KnockDown, and then force tech to try and open them up again.

These are situations which will give players real choices and the game added depth and fun. Also fully supportive weaking wakeup kicks

 

[Jared]

To me, most of the game play in the Beta build was really good, except for knock down situations. Hitting someone with a wall combo felt like a punishment at times because of the close proximity and unpredictable camera making it hard to get away. I think if they have a wall slump that doesn't allow a wake up kick that would be a lot better too.

 

[Raansu]

Its the same principle. You have to have a way to pressure opponents on the ground or the person that lost a situation and got knocked down has all the power. Especially as Wake up kicks are so strong.

In the first post, the proposed ground game asks for a NO VORTEX solution. So knowing it would ideally be a system in which only a few set moves can force up, and you would have the chance to block subsequently, does that help this concern?

After taking 70% of their health in one shot? Yaaaaa no, I don't agree at all. The ground game right now is not ideal, but again not thanks to force techs. I'd rather go back to DoA2 and 3 ground game before dealing with FT's ever again.

 

[Keylay]

The ground game definitely needs some work. I was doing 8P+K to opponents doing wake up kicks and I was missing it 3/4 times. I would jump and miss my opponent as they do a wake up kick and they were able to punish me. Not something that I go for normally but I have had a nice option select with Kasumi in previous games that almost always guaranteed 8P+K would hit opponents that didn't quick rise (or guaranteed if they did a wake up kick) after finishing a juggle with 9K. If they quick rise, I would get P+K and do K do get a low stun. But this doesn't work in the beta build.

I do like force techs but I can see how they are abusable. Now that DOA has meter though, they could implement that more into the system with EX moves. Special versions of current moves that do a little more damage, are safe on block, and/or cause a new knockdown state. You could use one bar of meter to put your opponent in a knockdown that allows them to be force teched for the first few frames before they go into a normal knockdown state. Since it requires meter, they wouldn't be able to do it repeatedly.

 

[Jared]

The ground game definitely needs some work. I was doing 8P+K to opponents doing wake up kicks and I was missing it 3/4 times. I would jump and miss my opponent as they do a wake up kick and they were able to punish me. Not something that I go for normally but I have had a nice option select with Kasumi in previous games that almost always guaranteed 8P+K would hit opponents that didn't quick rise (or guaranteed if they did a wake up kick) after finishing a juggle with 9K. If they quick rise, I would get P+K and do K do get a low stun. But this doesn't work in the beta build.

I do like force techs but I can see how they are abusable. Now that DOA has meter though, they could implement that more into the system with EX moves. Special versions of current moves that do a little more damage, are safe on block, and/or cause a new knockdown state. You could use one bar of meter to put your opponent in a knockdown that allows them to be force teched for the first few frames before they go into a normal knockdown state. Since it requires meter, they wouldn't be able to do it repeatedly.

I think that’s a really good idea. Like a certain Bass move he can ex and finish juggles with that gives him a free pick up. That way he only has access to it when he’s got sufficient meter. I wonder if they’d be able to eventually put something like that into the DOA6 system.

 

[Berzerk!]

After taking 70% of their health in one shot? Yaaaaa no, I don't agree at all. The ground game right now is not ideal, but again not thanks to force techs. I'd rather go back to DoA2 and 3 ground game before dealing with FT's ever again.

I sense the explanation of how we'd like to see force techs hasn't quite been taken on board by this answer.

You won't likely get a hard knockdown after a large combo. The whole point is - and this is already in the system - the moves that cause hard knockdown out of juggles tend to be shorten combos and thus are NOT optimal damage.

So you would be trading away your ability to get damage now for the opportunity to force the opponent up and attempt to open them up again.

Remember that a force tech doesn't guarantee anything except pressure. The character who wakes up can still block. This would allow DOA to bring in meaty attack situations which would be great for variety in gameplay. It would only be a subset of the overall strategy.

 

[Raansu]

Most FT's give a chunk of frame advantage, and the animation lock from teching forces you to block and unable to hold. I don't really care that you gave up damage and did 50% instead of 70%. FT's are not a balanced mechanic. Game needs a ground game, I totally agree....but to hell with FT's.

 

[Berzerk!]

Being able to block definitively means not broken.

 

[Jared]

The problem is the defensive options aren’t good enough to confidently defend in a force tech situation. If throws were breakable then it would be a different story, but since throws are so strong it makes it feel slightly too oppressive to me.

I’m totally ok with force techs not being in the game at all, but rather figuring out other ways to make the ground game more tactical and dynamic, particularly the things I have already mentioned earlier in this thread. Also, maybe something like increasing the damage on ground attacks, in tandem with giving some characters hard knockdowns, would make people want to get up without a wake up kick that would get stuffed by a ground attack.

I was never a huge fan of force techs, and I’m ok with seeing them gone, but the alternative of having pretty much nothing to replace it doesn’t cut it either. But the increased effectiveness of the SS attack could make force techs more managable to defend against, which could be an argument for bringing them back.

 

[crapoZK]

I still believe that most moves should not FT, but everyone should have at least one to two attacks that do. And those moves can be the slower, true mids or lows. The ones that you can react to by just getting up when you see it coming. (Lei Fang 2H+K) That’s how you can balance it. Reduce the amount of hard FTing attacks, also changes the amount of hard KDs. Strings with ground properties won’t FT either. Just singular moves that are strong enough to do so. If you’re on the ground and you see Bayman SLIDING (66K) towards you and you just choose not to get up to dodge it, you just deserve to be knocked up for thinking you can get away with laying there like a dickhead. Most FTs only grant like +16 anyway. And it’s 16 INVISIBLE frames.

In DOA5, Zack’s TRUE FT setups did no damage. Like he had 45% combo potential, but would have to cut it down to like 20% if he wanted to FT, and even then, most of the setups could be teched anyway. It was only if you chose to try to keep grounded where you’d get knocked up fast. However with the idea that I have, 2KKKKK won’t actually FT in the setup, but 2H+K would. You can simply get up to dodge that, as you would a regular down attack.

So it’s like: Will you take the RISK of gimping your damage to FT at the RISK of potentially losing your turn in pressure, or will you just do the damage. I know Helena players would just opt for more damage if BKO 6P didn’t FT. Mila players wouldn’t do 90% of their bullshit FT setups if this was the case.

I think WUKs should knockdown on counter hit and shallow stun with pushback on NH. So that the person on the floor has the option to turn the tides on an opponent for trying to be brave and hit the enemy on the floor outside of a setup. However, this also means that WUKs would have a bit less iframes on them for balance.

Scenario: A Hayabusa player does their best combo. He then runs up to you and tries to 3P+K you on the ground while you’re rolling forward (remember in my idea there are less inactive frames on the ground) and you hit him with a mid WUK on CH, he’s gonna get knocked down sideways and it’s your turn again. He can either tech up and be on defence, or stay on the ground as the pushback on the knockdown forces neutral spacing. Like I’d like it so that if you get hit by a WUK on CH, if you tried to WUK back, it would just whiff unless the enemy dashed forward.

Imo this is the most balanced it could get. It removes FT BS (Like Helena’s stuff), makes people opt for better damage, benefits grapplers with ground grabs, reactable, AND the defender can opt to change the tides on an overly aggressive opponent.

 

[NightAntilli]

I haven't played the game, so I'm going only from what I have seen...
But...
I can't help but think that this is a dumbed down DOA5. Things seem a lot more simple than before. It might sound negative, but it isn't necessarily bad for the game. At this point I simply don't know.
No longer needing to extend stuns and instead having the launch height depending on which launcher is used, it obviously makes things simpler. Slow escape also being gone, once again, simpler. Seems like the one that gets the first hit in will get the advantage. So slower characters like Bass would seem to be at a immediate disadvantage. That's why it probably makes sense to have overpowered wake-up kicks, to allow for some sort of comeback. The game will be very stun->launch focused. Everyone will be playing like Momiji it seems.

It's as if they're trying to be a bit closer to the likes of say, street fighter, where you need a single good hit to get a combo from it. But DOA won't work that way, for the simple fact that most offensive attacks are negative on normal hit, and obviously their (in)famous hold mechanic. I don't know if this game will be as enjoyable to explore as DOA5, considering the reduced amount of variables. It can still be more fun to play due to how straightforward it is, but I have to reserve judgment for now. Which brings me to...

Not sure I like the break blow/hold mechanic, as it seems to bring just that tad bit more randomness in the fights. It's a mechanic that breaks the normal rules to add something fancy, at least to me. In DOA5 with the critical bursts, at least you had to work for it. But here, practically anything gives you meter. But we'll see.

Or maybe I simply don't understand the Fatal Rush and Break Gauge mechanics and I'm completely wrong.

 

[Raansu]

No longer needing to extend stuns and instead having the launch height depending on which launcher is used, it obviously makes things simpler.

This is how DoA was before DoA4. You didn't need to play the stun game, it was just an element of the game. Being forced to extend a stun is not a good thing. It just adds more randomness to the game. DoA5 tried to keep doa4 stun system while trying to give options to avoid it, but only certain characters really benefited from it.

Slow escape also being gone, once again, simpler. Seems like the one that gets the first hit in will get the advantage. So slower characters like Bass would seem to be at a immediate disadvantage.

Stuns are really short. SE isn't necessary at all. Think of it like stagger being set to high in training mode. They were about as short in older DoA games and no one even knew about SE till doa4, and it was fairly limited in how it worked in DoA3.

It's as if they're trying to be a bit closer to the likes of say, street fighter, where you need a single good hit to get a combo from it.

No, its more trying to be closer to doa3. You need to have a strong neutral game, you gotta play smart because this version allows you to avoid playing the stun game. You can if you want to in order to get max threshold, but you don't need to as launches outside of max threshold are near max height. This is a good thing. Makes the game less random.

Not sure I like the break blow/hold mechanic, as it seems to bring just that tad bit more randomness in the fights. It's a mechanic that breaks the normal rules to add something fancy, at least to me. In DOA5 with the critical bursts, at least you had to work for it. But here, practically anything gives you meter. But we'll see.

Break blow is a better design than power blows imo. My only issue is its both a sabaki and a guard break. Granted if you whiff, or even if you get the guard break, you're now out of meter and asking for a whole world of hurt if you get hit with a unholdable setup, but I still think having both on the BB is a bit much. Break holds imo shouldn't be usable in normal situations. Meter builds too fast and it holds everything. Yes it won't kill and it does little damage and gives no advantage at all, but I still think it should be limited to unholdable situations.

Or maybe I simply don't understand the Fatal Rush and Break Gauge mechanics and I'm completely wrong.

Fatal rush existence is to force meter usage, that's it.

 

[Jared]

Like Raansu said, this DOA is more of a "back to the roots" game, which I am highly in favor of. The worst thing they ever did to DOA, in my opinion, is increase the stun threshold drastically in DOA4, which was carried into DOA5. In fact, I would even be ok with the stun threshold being decreased even more than they already have, since right now it's somewhere between DOA3 and DOA4.

As far as Break Blow goes, I do like it better than Critical Burst, as it does not lean on the stun game to get results. I do think that either the move needs to lose its guard break properties (not necessarily unsafe, but at least not advantage), OR lose the sabaki properties so it can reliably be stuffed, and therefore not be a random "wake up Break Blow" tool. Personally I would prefer the latter, as the game has limited options in which to build an offense, using a full bar of meter for some block advantage seems ok to me. Plus they are super linear so they can be stepped easily, which is something we need to remember to factor into our ideas of how powerful a move is or isn't.

As you can see, my opinion on DOA in general, after playing this game for 15+ years, is the less you have to work with the stun system the better, and this game is trending in that direction. I was a huge fan of SE in old games (it was actually very effective in DOA2, but nobody really used it), as it allowed another defensive option outside of the hold, but because of the changes in the stun system and the way in which characters recover quickly makes me actually prefer it being gone in 6.

On an unrelated note, I would love to see the complete removal of guard break moves that do not give advantage. For example, Bass has some guard break moves that are still about -4 on block (66P I believe). This creates a logical discrepancy that adds more confusion than anything else. A guard break animation should mean exactly what it shows on screen, which is one character being in an advantageous position over the other.
Say Player A, who may not have the knowledge of exact frames, attacks after guarding a guard break move that leaves the attacker, Player B, in a negative frame situation. Player A and B both attack after the move is blocked, and Player A wins out against Player B's attack. This sends a message to Player A that they can attack safely after guard breaks. Now say Player A blocks a guard break attack from Player B that leaves Player B at plus frames, and they attack again, only this time they lose out to Player B's follow up attack. This can be pretty confusing and unintuitive to newer players, and it does not make logical sense in the context of the game. Besides, do we really need to see a guard break animation for moves that leave the attacker at -4? Either give them slight advantage or just don't have the move trigger a guard break animation on block.

While I am a player that knows the frame data of the fighting games I play (I have so much useless knowledge), I don't think it should be necessary to know frames on visually represented guard advantage/disadvantage moves, and removing this discrepancy would add to the enjoyment of more casual players who do not care to learn every block advantage/disadvantage in the game.

Sorry if that was a wall of messy text, I hope I was able to clearly convey what I've been thinking.

 

[Raansu]

On an unrelated note, I would love to see the complete removal of guard break moves that do not give advantage. For example, Bass has some guard break moves that are still about -4 on block (66P I believe). This creates a logical discrepancy that adds more confusion than anything else.

There's a very specific reason why some guard breaks are like this. While I agree that it can cause confusion and I definitely dislike it, but because of how DoA handles recovery and block stuns they made certain moves with long block stuns and long recovery times give the guard break animation. This is the visualize to the player you can't react at that moment. I imagine it would be much much more jarring to the player if they were in a standard block animation and "stunned" in that block unable to do inputs for a specific time because they relegated a specific recovery time for both the blocker and the attacker.

So ya, guard breaks being negative does have a very specific purpose.

 

[NightAntilli]

I think that characters like Bass need more moves that are + on block. He's supposed to be slow but strong, so that strength needs to be reflected in the blocks. That can be combined with the guard break animation. The advantage doesn't need to be much. It simply needs to be enough to be able to be competitive with characters that have 9 frame jabs and 11/12 frame mids.

As for the new mechanics, I do agree that the less you have to work with the stun system the better.

 

[Jared]

There's a very specific reason why some guard breaks are like this. While I agree that it can cause confusion and I definitely dislike it, but because of how DoA handles recovery and block stuns they made certain moves with long block stuns and long recovery times give the guard break animation. This is the visualize to the player you can't react at that moment. I imagine it would be much much more jarring to the player if they were in a standard block animation and "stunned" in that block unable to do inputs for a specific time because they relegated a specific recovery time for both the blocker and the attacker.

So ya, guard breaks being negative does have a very specific purpose.

I can see why they did this but I think there are better way to go about this. Guard break should be reserved for attacker advantage situations. I think being in block stun in better than seeing a guard break, or maybe just lessen the recovery/block stun for those moves. Or they can just make those moves slightly plus like NightAntilli said.

 

[NightAntilli]

There are some animations where the block stun is quite long, without showing guard breaks.

 

[Raansu]

TN is all about fluid animations and those animations conveying when you can and cannot input commands. Perhaps there's a better way, but I'm not really sure what.