JayceeChris
Member
Sup guys, I've just let two teets on TN twitter. One is the Ein's changes list on Takeda's blog. The other one is just about giving CB effect to P+K so 6P+K can return to 14 frames. (The most needed change IMO)
Balance The Karate Master
- Thread starter Zeo
- Start date
UpSideDownGRUNT
Well-Known Member
Do you have the link so I can retweet?
Kronin
Well-Known Member
Actually I give credit to @EMPEROR_COW about the fact that until we don't play the 1.04 it's impossible for us to determine exactly if the changes are able or less to improve enough the ability of Ein inside the game.
Said this few days ago I however asked to TN, after thanking them for the buff already done, the general changes that the majority of the Ein's players here seem to ask: (tracking and moves able to cause openings):
https://twitter.com/Kronin1/status/423199098187952128
JayceeChris
Member
Sure here's Ein tweet list on Takeda's blog :
https://twitter.com/JayceeChris3/status/424288661610311681
And 6P+K tweet :
https://twitter.com/JayceeChris3/status/424286799146397696
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
http://takedazxdoa.blogspot.com/2013/11/ein-tweet-list.html Completed list
@Nereus 8P is on the list as a SD stun as well as 8K (only the solo one).
https://twitter.com/TakedaZX/status/424217046558076928
While you're at it guys retweet this to buff his and Hayate's hair.
@Nereus 8P is on the list as a SD stun as well as 8K (only the solo one).
https://twitter.com/TakedaZX/status/424217046558076928
While you're at it guys retweet this to buff his and Hayate's hair.
Im assuming you didn't see the " EDIT " near my post?
its aiight
ScattereDreams
Well-Known Member
Here's my status - Maybe I'll do a DOA4-DOA5U Ein comparison
https://twitter.com/XxRadiance/status/424312982986711040
https://twitter.com/XxRadiance/status/424312982986711040
dreams... are you o Radiance o by any chance?
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
Lemme help
, I've been messing around with Ein on DOA4 a lot lately.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
I just wanted to say I'm glad you guys are my fellow Ein players lol. Since day 1 instead of bitching about him we tried, we saw what he needed and got together to make a list of changes. Now we're going around re-tweeting this stuff like crazy; It's a nice kind of unity we have that you don't really get to see in other character forums lol. It sounded corny and cheesy but I felt like sayin it.
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ScattereDreams
Well-Known Member
Yes
ScattereDreams
Well-Known Member
@TakedaZX Well Ima start recording tomorrow. We'll have to cover what's important for Ein. Too much info TN might see as too demanding or covering uneccessary parts will cause them to lose focus on the important parts. BTW I made a mistake and told @Tenryuga that Eins 1k stunned on NH in 4.1 TROLLOLOL
TakedaZX
Well-Known Member
You mistook that 1K for Ryu's probably. HIS stunned on NH for whatever dumb ass reason. Fuck Ryu man... seriously.
So what are you looking to compare specifically? Just the important tools or most every aspect?
Saber
Well-Known Member
WARNING: Wall of text ahead.
So I took a look at TakedaZX's list out of curiousity, and there's a lot, and I do mean a lot, that I disagree with.
WR K - Increase Max Threshold/Critical Burst Launch Height (Or increase hang time/lower gravity)[/quote]At threshold/CB, WR K > 3P > 3P > PP6PK is fine as max damage juggle.
66PK Variants - Tracking added.
KK/PKK/PPKK - Tracking added.
BT 1K6P2K - Tracking added.[/quote]These I agree with.
I mean, I understand you guys want Ein buffed, but be somewhat reasonable to the rest of the cast as well. Yes, I know Ayane just shits on everyone because for some reason she never gets nerfed and always gets buffed and is good in everything especially stun launch which doesn't make sense since it gives her too much of an advantage. But that's besides the point. The point is just like you guys said - normalize him.
So I took a look at TakedaZX's list out of curiousity, and there's a lot, and I do mean a lot, that I disagree with.
6P+K causes an non-SEable stun on NH already. Making it 14i is crazy. You've already got an excellent 14i whiff punisher in 236P and a non-SE-able stun in 3P on CH.
Disagreeing with this completely. This is asking for wayyyy too much. A 13i NH launcher is out of the question, never mind the fact that it'll out-prioritize anything else 13i and that it has good range too.
Great. You want this to be 14i and increase its damage. It's fine as a CB.
No need. The move is fine on its own.
This I actually agree with (not the 3KK part tho'), but only if other character's previous SD stuns return too. Bounds are just a fucking excuse to reduce guaranteed damage.
It's fine as is.
It's fine as is.
You wish. I'll only agree if other characters have the same property, because the fucking invincibility frames are annoying for everyone, not just Ein. Right now it's fine, I think, because he's not the only one suffering from this issue.
Ein doesn't need the stun. At All. 14 frame deep stun is OP indefinitely. And if 3KK is a natural combo then smh because it'd be a freaking mid K 14 frame launcher.
Unnecessary.
Agreed. No hitbox of a similar move should be different.
This is fine.
So you want this to be 13i AND have an increase in launch height. The initial frames can stay. Launch height increase is most welcome, though.
Not necessary when 33K is a far better option.
WR K - Increase Max Threshold/Critical Burst Launch Height (Or increase hang time/lower gravity)[/quote]At threshold/CB, WR K > 3P > 3P > PP6PK is fine as max damage juggle.
Agreed.
This move guarantees damage. It's fine as is.
Nope. Any attempt to land a NH launcher on block should always be unsafe.
The move shouldn't be safe if you didn't charge it.
These three are decent low crushes, especially for crushing WUKs. +1 is fine for 46K, though +3 is decent for the other two.
It doesn't need to guarantee 46P.
A gigantic ass no. The fact that it's even used means you're trying to bait a CH stun. It has good priority, the stun is deep. -4 is already being very lenient because it's low risk for high reward. +1 on NH will make it NO risk and high reward.
Nope. NH 12i stun is too much. It's fine as it is.[quote]
66PK Variants - Tracking added.
KK/PKK/PPKK - Tracking added.
BT 1K6P2K - Tracking added.[/quote]These I agree with.
I agree with this.
Unnecessary. Using PPP is fine.
I agree.
Not necessary.
He needs a fast tracking low, but not one that's again low risk high reward. -8 on NH hit like Hitomi's and +7 on CH and +12 sitdown on HCH and in stun.
This is fine.
I mean, I understand you guys want Ein buffed, but be somewhat reasonable to the rest of the cast as well. Yes, I know Ayane just shits on everyone because for some reason she never gets nerfed and always gets buffed and is good in everything especially stun launch which doesn't make sense since it gives her too much of an advantage. But that's besides the point. The point is just like you guys said - normalize him.
Tenryuga
Well-Known Member
@Saber
6P+K 14i and 4K 13i were tools Ein had in the past that were in no way shape or form OP. It is reasonable to ask for the restoration of tools that were not broken. Both moves are getting punished on block anyway so misuse of them gets an Ein player screwed.
P+K is getting CB status since 6P+K is losing it in order to be 14i.
PPP is not a reliable string; That is one of the worst strings he has because unless charged it does nothing for him which leaves him without a solid punch string into a mid whereas some other strikers have multiple strings into mids....that have MID and possibly LOW followups to those mids.
I actually made the same case you did concerning NH + on hit 3P.
Hitomi's 1P is -5 on hit. Where do you get -8 on NH from?
You say a NH 12i stun is too much but quite a few characters have 12i kicks that stun on NH and do more damage than 66P. NH 66P doesn't even allow stun game unless you hit confirm 66PP. The other two options are a knockback / knockdown.
I didn't realize that 6KK was changed. What I wanted from that move was to be safe on block or a 2 in 1 on NH / CH if left unsafe.
7P I agree with you on.
9KK / 3KKK were also safe in the past but your logic here makes sense.
Ein's 46K was as high as +7 in the past games. +1 does absolutely nothing for Ein against speed demons like Christie and Kasumi. 46K is also not that easy to land due to it being a high and not having that much range. +3 on that move is reasonable for a character of Ein's speeds and for the effort needed to land the move though honestly that move should be +5.
7K launch height is requested to be increased for the very reason you just stated. 33K is superior to it in every way except on an opponent that is SEing jabs. If they SE jabs 33K whiffs every time. 7K could use a small boost to be more efficient in situations like these. 3P < PP6PK at CL2 onward is all that's needed from this launcher.
Ein getting better hitboxes or true mid status on some of his whiff publishers is absolutely necessary as characters like Brad Wong and Ayane blow him up hard. Ayane should be evading a 236P because she was out of range not because she was in range yet somehow managed to duck it.
I'll admit some stuff like 3KK 2 in 1 and 1KK guard break for safety and space is a bit too good and isn't a necessity. But nothing here gives him a complete edge over the cast. It actually brings him up to par by restoring tools he should not have lost and solidifies some existing tools, while addressing some issues he has like lack of tracking, a solid high crush and poor performance in close range. Either way thanks for dropping by and giving your input. It's appreciated because it allows us to try and explain this to you and see if we can't compromise. Like we said we're not trying to make Ein some godlike character; we want to be reasonable.
6P+K 14i and 4K 13i were tools Ein had in the past that were in no way shape or form OP. It is reasonable to ask for the restoration of tools that were not broken. Both moves are getting punished on block anyway so misuse of them gets an Ein player screwed.
P+K is getting CB status since 6P+K is losing it in order to be 14i.
PPP is not a reliable string; That is one of the worst strings he has because unless charged it does nothing for him which leaves him without a solid punch string into a mid whereas some other strikers have multiple strings into mids....that have MID and possibly LOW followups to those mids.
I actually made the same case you did concerning NH + on hit 3P.
Hitomi's 1P is -5 on hit. Where do you get -8 on NH from?
You say a NH 12i stun is too much but quite a few characters have 12i kicks that stun on NH and do more damage than 66P. NH 66P doesn't even allow stun game unless you hit confirm 66PP. The other two options are a knockback / knockdown.
I didn't realize that 6KK was changed. What I wanted from that move was to be safe on block or a 2 in 1 on NH / CH if left unsafe.
7P I agree with you on.
9KK / 3KKK were also safe in the past but your logic here makes sense.
Ein's 46K was as high as +7 in the past games. +1 does absolutely nothing for Ein against speed demons like Christie and Kasumi. 46K is also not that easy to land due to it being a high and not having that much range. +3 on that move is reasonable for a character of Ein's speeds and for the effort needed to land the move though honestly that move should be +5.
7K launch height is requested to be increased for the very reason you just stated. 33K is superior to it in every way except on an opponent that is SEing jabs. If they SE jabs 33K whiffs every time. 7K could use a small boost to be more efficient in situations like these. 3P < PP6PK at CL2 onward is all that's needed from this launcher.
Ein getting better hitboxes or true mid status on some of his whiff publishers is absolutely necessary as characters like Brad Wong and Ayane blow him up hard. Ayane should be evading a 236P because she was out of range not because she was in range yet somehow managed to duck it.
I'll admit some stuff like 3KK 2 in 1 and 1KK guard break for safety and space is a bit too good and isn't a necessity. But nothing here gives him a complete edge over the cast. It actually brings him up to par by restoring tools he should not have lost and solidifies some existing tools, while addressing some issues he has like lack of tracking, a solid high crush and poor performance in close range. Either way thanks for dropping by and giving your input. It's appreciated because it allows us to try and explain this to you and see if we can't compromise. Like we said we're not trying to make Ein some godlike character; we want to be reasonable.
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Saber
Well-Known Member
That's past games though. A lot of DOA5's frame data is significantly different, though I haven't actually played past games since I don't have a 360, but I know pretty much most of the frame data and the meta game from past games. In DOA5U, it's definitely unnecessary for them to be as fast as they were back then - it's all a matter of comparison to what other characters have, after all, and none of them have moves that would be as good on hit as these two. It definitely should be unsafe, but when so many other strikes with poorer on hit properties are just as unsafe or even more, it's, at least to me, not necessary for Ein to have them. It'd be an excellent buff overall if he did, but I dunno. I'm still questioning if this is a balanced change.
Ein isn't a mixup heavy character though, and he's not supposed to be. Ein shouldn't even be relying on that string in the first place (just like Hitomi completely negates PP and goes straight into 3KP).
Whoopsie. Was going to edit that.
It's simple - 66P has followups, and by itself, it's safe. Unless the block frames are changed to unsafe, it's not necessary.
Everything else you mentioned in your post - you've convinced me.