Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
You might have missed the first tweet which I didn't include in my collated quote:
Even without proper translation, that seems fairly clear at this time.
Team Ninja Twitter
- Thread starter Raansu
- Start date
You might have missed the first tweet which I didn't include in my collated quote:
Even without proper translation, that seems fairly clear at this time.
Rikuto
P-P-P-P-P-P-POWER!
oh no.
we're not GETTING an official translation most likely.
From yesterday
This means, we get someone to translate asap.
Not to downplay this... but....
at it's most complicated it's still a 4 point system. This is not making it any harder to hold than a chargeup was during DOA 4. Since powerblows are probably all going to be mids, it's really just a 50/50 (assuming there is a kick variant for every character), especially with that visual cue letting you know its coming.
I think what's really going to decide whether or not this is effective is what they end up doing with the active hold frames for expert holds.
we're not GETTING an official translation most likely.
From yesterday
This means, we get someone to translate asap.
Not to downplay this... but....
at it's most complicated it's still a 4 point system. This is not making it any harder to hold than a chargeup was during DOA 4. Since powerblows are probably all going to be mids, it's really just a 50/50 (assuming there is a kick variant for every character), especially with that visual cue letting you know its coming.
I think what's really going to decide whether or not this is effective is what they end up doing with the active hold frames for expert holds.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Fair points; in reference to holds I'm more pleased that the system is simple, flexible, and not overpowered (assuming those basic holds are indeed weak).
For the Power Blow, the idea that it's a 50/50 vs their ability to expert hold it (forward/back F) doesn't bother me too much with the knowledge that you can Free Step Cancel your powerblow and put them in a mixup based on attack height or throw mixup.
I'd actually like them to look at the movesets and make the height of hits more important, like in VF, you have good low/high pressure tools and a lot of the game is about claiming the ascendancy through height mixups and nabbing frame advantage (and if things go well, damage from combo)
If Holds are going to be less dominant, the interplay of attacks will matter more like this.
For the Power Blow, the idea that it's a 50/50 vs their ability to expert hold it (forward/back F) doesn't bother me too much with the knowledge that you can Free Step Cancel your powerblow and put them in a mixup based on attack height or throw mixup.
I'd actually like them to look at the movesets and make the height of hits more important, like in VF, you have good low/high pressure tools and a lot of the game is about claiming the ascendancy through height mixups and nabbing frame advantage (and if things go well, damage from combo)
If Holds are going to be less dominant, the interplay of attacks will matter more like this.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
Assuming all of this is accurately translated, it sounds like things are heading in the proper direction. I still have some concerns though...
From what little we know, Power Blows will be useless in high level play. They're extremely telegraphed and very unsafe on block. There's no need to even attempt an expert counter if you can just block and punish... or better yet, interrupt with an attack of your own. However, if Power Blows can't be countered, then hopefully other attacks can't be countered either. Although it doesn't really sound like "expert holds" are all that difficult to perform, so I'd like to see attacks that can't be held at all, or at the very least, you evade instead of countering (like a few attacks in DOA4).
Sidestepping is nice, but unless the execution frames of counters are increased, it won't have a big impact. Just like how whiff punishing in DOA4 is pretty much nonexistent. If an attack is whiffed in DOA4, in most cases, by the time I get a whiff punish out, the opponent can counter because counters execute in zero frames. If this doesn't change, you may sidestep an attack, but the opponent might be able to execute a zero frame counter before you can properly punish.
Speaking of punishment, I'm hoping that there will be more than just throw punishment this time around.
From what little we know, Power Blows will be useless in high level play. They're extremely telegraphed and very unsafe on block. There's no need to even attempt an expert counter if you can just block and punish... or better yet, interrupt with an attack of your own. However, if Power Blows can't be countered, then hopefully other attacks can't be countered either. Although it doesn't really sound like "expert holds" are all that difficult to perform, so I'd like to see attacks that can't be held at all, or at the very least, you evade instead of countering (like a few attacks in DOA4).
Sidestepping is nice, but unless the execution frames of counters are increased, it won't have a big impact. Just like how whiff punishing in DOA4 is pretty much nonexistent. If an attack is whiffed in DOA4, in most cases, by the time I get a whiff punish out, the opponent can counter because counters execute in zero frames. If this doesn't change, you may sidestep an attack, but the opponent might be able to execute a zero frame counter before you can properly punish.
Speaking of punishment, I'm hoping that there will be more than just throw punishment this time around.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Nice to see you DrDogg 
I agree with you about punishment, and I think if sidestepping is implemented well you won't have to worry about 0 frame counters, so long as attacks have appropriate recovery. You should be able to evade, then punish the evaded move 1) during attack frames as it misses and/or 2) during recovery.
Still a lot we don't know of course.
I agree with you about punishment, and I think if sidestepping is implemented well you won't have to worry about 0 frame counters, so long as attacks have appropriate recovery. You should be able to evade, then punish the evaded move 1) during attack frames as it misses and/or 2) during recovery.Still a lot we don't know of course.
DrDogg
Well-Known Member
I'd actually like to see longer recovery on attacks (especially on whiff), and longer execution frames for counters. If the fastest non-throw attack in DOA5 is say... 9 frames, then a counter should take at least 3-5 frames to execute. The active window should also be no longer than 5-10 frames, with recovery determined by the damage inflicted.
Counters that inflict no damage should have quick recovery, to the point of being very difficult to punish. Counters that inflict DOA3 level damage should have moderate recovery, so you can punish, but not with a lot of damage. Counters that lead to high damage, should have a lengthy recovery so that you can really punish someone if it misses.
In the end, I want frame advantage, less guessing, and the ability to punish someone if they guess wrong or make a mistake. Normal hit launchers would be nice too...
Counters that inflict no damage should have quick recovery, to the point of being very difficult to punish. Counters that inflict DOA3 level damage should have moderate recovery, so you can punish, but not with a lot of damage. Counters that lead to high damage, should have a lengthy recovery so that you can really punish someone if it misses.
In the end, I want frame advantage, less guessing, and the ability to punish someone if they guess wrong or make a mistake. Normal hit launchers would be nice too...
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Raansu, I'm with you that I generally prefer the 4-point hold. This new 3 point hold system, a lot will depend on how weak or strong those holds are. I agree DrDogg about the longer recovery on certain moves including holds.
What I wonder about now is where parries might fit, or if all basic holds should be parries. You'll remember, parries could not be performed out of stun and did not do damage, only granted advantage. These are the kind of holds that it would be ok to have low recovery on.
What I wonder about now is where parries might fit, or if all basic holds should be parries. You'll remember, parries could not be performed out of stun and did not do damage, only granted advantage. These are the kind of holds that it would be ok to have low recovery on.
Shit, give me the DOA++ hold system, complete with crazy inputs. There's no accidental or lucky holding with that.
For a frame of reference, Jann Lee's taunt/hold is 14/30/46 in 3.1. Fourteen initial frames for a hold in a DOA game?! My goodness.
taunt/hold is 14/30/46 in 3.1. Fourteen initial frames for a hold in a DOA game?! My goodness.
Berzerk!
Well-Known Member
Yep. I don't think more complicated executions for such a basic move is needed, but the risk reward inherent in short active and long recovery (depending on power of the hold) is key.
Execution wise, it looks like they plan to cover that with the "Expert" holds. Adding a 4th direction to the basic set would be about as complicated as they'd need to go.
I asked them on Twitter about whether some characters will have more Expert holds, like LF, Bayman etc have Advanced Holds in previous games, but I doubt we'll get detail around that for a while.
What are you talking about? DOA3 came out a decade ago. =P
Gill Hustle
Well-Known Member
Raansu
Well-Known Member
I think he's referring to the transition of DoA4 to DoA5. It has been over half a decade of torture with DoA4 lol.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
My friend is helping me translate these tweets and its only confusing me more. Like the expert holds it reads that all characters will have "mid expert holds" but it also says in another tweet that Busa's Izuna is an expert hold. So maybe this means that the "mid expert hold" is universal, and then specific characters get unique expert holds like the Izuna? Or like holds that originally gave launchers would now be expert holds? So maybe normal holds are working closer to a parry now?
It also says that power blows CAN be held by both normal and expert holds, contrary to what we originally thought that it could only be held by expert holds. Normal holds do less damage and all have different/new animations.
It also says that power blows CAN be held by both normal and expert holds, contrary to what we originally thought that it could only be held by expert holds. Normal holds do less damage and all have different/new animations.
For a frame of reference, Jann Lee's
Heeey, if this is same taunt as in his doa2 one, then this sounds like Tekken, I like it.
As long as these don't looks the same like the old "Time to clap ma hands and magic shit up" animation, I'm cool with that.
Raansu
Well-Known Member
what?