Yurlungur
Well-Known Member
Oh god, i get what you mean. I'm flat out missing mechanics from doa5 like i'd never thought i'd miss like stun escape because how ugly certain aspects devolve into.
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Oh god, i get what you mean. I'm flat out missing mechanics from doa5 like i'd never thought i'd miss like stun escape because how ugly certain aspects devolve into.
Break holds are basically just holds so i never understand why people say they don't want them in, just throw punish them or bait them since it wastes half a meter for a measly amount of damage and only +5 advantage which isn't much with the distance between the characters xD and people ask for CBs and stuff but for what? The stun game is already toned down and you have fatal stuns for that which is basically a CB imo
The ground game I feel needs to return to LR status too, Rachel is in and has her stomp so there's no excuse anymore. If they add more varied dlc like hairstyles and more meaningful stuff I think the game will do well.
SaihateDYNAMO
Well-Known Member
I kinda enjoy 6's gameplay more than 5, if not then it's about even for me. Not gonna lie, critical bursts were a unique feature but damn the stun system in 5 was borked... it's hard to go back to that after being used to the way 6 handles things. Break holds are probably the most divisive feature in 6 besides SSA costing meter, but I don't hate them too much! I do think that they should take up 100% meter if its used out of stun so people would rely on them way less. I agree that the ground game needs to come back; to this day I still don't know what their goal was in almost completely getting rid of it. Did they run out of time??
So yeah the game plays fine but that can only take it so far. What's truly effing up 6 is the atrocious UI, lighting, DLC, new character designs and stage amount. If 2020 gives us at least 3 more (multi-tiered and explorable) stages as well as the day/night transitions from story mode, I'll be happy. Add some new, COOL characters, DLC costumes with some thought and effort put into them as well as much-needed lighting tweaks and i'll be even happier.
Also give us more hairstyles and fix the hair length please for the love of god!!!!
So yeah the game plays fine but that can only take it so far. What's truly effing up 6 is the atrocious UI, lighting, DLC, new character designs and stage amount. If 2020 gives us at least 3 more (multi-tiered and explorable) stages as well as the day/night transitions from story mode, I'll be happy. Add some new, COOL characters, DLC costumes with some thought and effort put into them as well as much-needed lighting tweaks and i'll be even happier.
Also give us more hairstyles and fix the hair length please for the love of god!!!!
If 6 is such a casual game why do I have a bad win ratio in comparison to 5?
So you all want to know one of the reasons for why the ground game was changed? jesus here goes. You can even ask MASTER if you wish.
Some of the reasons with why it was changed was to prioritize the defensive player to not be in such a disadvantageous state from a scenario that enforces advantage from a grounded state into rising. Why was it changed? it's because of the character balance in itself. A lot people haven't realized that not many characters are powerful in the typical oki scenario or the amount of lessened guesswork you have to do to compensate in return. In short, a lot of characters force tech game was garbage while others were incredibly good, because of how that system worked it left characters to be more favorable than others in that department. So TN changed it to make it more neutral heavy from any situations that gets you knocked down and then immediately risen up along with the increased invulnerability for when you touch the ground. TN was trying to find a way to ensure a defensive player can make a comeback (I mean drum roll, they added break holds). TN's version was a failed implementation of that, but I did see where TN was trying to go with this despite it was a bit of a fail. The reason why I think it was a fail was because of some of the game bits such as Wake up kicks where they are extremely powerful, so you can't truly control a player who gets away with this, so what do we do? we force them up, but you have to guess on that now right? blame TN for that one. Imagine Raidou with Gen Fu, Helena, or Sarah force tech capabilities? that shit would look weird right? of course it would, doesn't fit the character.
"So why don't TN just improve those characters instead or update their force tech game?" - but see here's the catch. If you do improve those characters, they would be good in "two departments" from what the other lacked which completely diminishes to how they were originally designed. On top of it, some of their moves doesn't properly coexist with the ground to make things look like a natural force tech due to recovery or just plain advantage. A character who has grounded options for example where if you force someone up on the ground, you are at advantage. If they get up and you whiff a move with shortened recovery, the opponent who tried to force you up is "still" at advantage. Know what else comes into that scenario? unholdables. If you get up and tried to step or hold, you will be hit. That's 3 options that eliminated the defensive player. Know what else comes up when someone back techs near a wall? meaty setups where you can change a move that's -1 to +1 on block or increased advantage on hit. 4 on the table. Most of the force tech talks can be a habit of players who consistently plays these characters that have these options because they have another layer of enforcing DOA's yomi while other characters can't properly do that. It's a double edge sword of both good and bad. In that general case, the game favored more of the attacker in a game full of stuns and yomi/guessing. If it came to me? I'd give every character that same treatment with everyone is super strong with the ground game, but they won't because it's TN so they changed it.
You want my thoughts on force techs or any of the above? I loved it (depending on the character), and I obviously abused it. I mean you had no choice, that was the system and meta that was being followed. I think what TN was trying to enforce is that they didn't want DOA players (or any player for that matter) to think DOA is just a pure force tech game and straight up taking most health to just ground work. There are literal DOA players that only play force techs with them actually believing there is proper neutral into doing that. But can you blame them? that's the system's fault. I also want it back, but I do also understand where TN was coming from with force techs and overall ground game with the change. Will it come back? yes, I think so. But again, there was some good valid reasons at first that people did not realize and Manny (MASTER) will tell you this too.
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Jyu_Viole_Grace
Well-Known Member
This is the same mistake as Guilty Gear Strive. People was afraid of okis and complained a lot about strong setup characters like Johnny and Millia, so what did ASW?, removing okis and now literally almost everything resets the neutral, even wall combos.
But if you look a Guilty Gear players, are they happy?, of course not, okis, air dashes and juggles are ASW staples.
The thing is people will always whine about balance and their defeats so you can't take them seriously and just remove mechanics to make them happy, because you won't make them happy with that. They will want the bullshit even if they whine about it, because crazy games with bullshit will always be more played in the long term than super basic but "balanced" games that everyone master in 6 months.
But if you look a Guilty Gear players, are they happy?, of course not, okis, air dashes and juggles are ASW staples.
The thing is people will always whine about balance and their defeats so you can't take them seriously and just remove mechanics to make them happy, because you won't make them happy with that. They will want the bullshit even if they whine about it, because crazy games with bullshit will always be more played in the long term than super basic but "balanced" games that everyone master in 6 months.
This is a no and a yes. It goes both ways that isn't doing anyone any good favors. The issue is that people can have the audacity to ask for something without taking the steps into thinking on why it was changed in the first place. Usually in most cases, whenever someone asks for a ground game back, it's a back end situation of: "I'm not having fun with the game and therefore you shouldn't have fun with it either. The ground game was changed and took away for what the game allowed me to have fun despite how unfair other characters had it but I didn't care because the game was fun for me and you shouldn't have fun either."
All this talk about people afraid of oki is usually a false sham to enforce people to deal with it without any clue as to why it was changed in the first place just to please the biter. It's not how balance works. To balance something, everyone must be in a equal situations to counteract one another. If a certain system favored specific characters on a huge note while other characters can't take advantage of that same fashion then it's not a good fighting game period no matter how fun it is for people playing those characters (unless of course every character can perform that same situation then this wouldn't even be a discussion). And this is coming from someone who also loved it and also abused it because the initial goal is to win. You have to put yourself in another side's shoes for once though and why some of it makes sense on the change based on the characters they played. To know this? you have to play their characters to find this information, which a lot of people do not do because why play characters you are not interested in right? people play the same specific characters that did extremely well on the groundwork but usually never make the time to try most of the casts to see where problems arise.
Like mentioned before, part of this reason from TN was to make people think that DOA isn't a game based off straight up groundwork for 90% of your matches, along with some characters are just not very good to take most advantage of it. Part of it is DOA obviously and I think it was pretty important to DOA to make it fun to a degree but it's not what makes DOA, it has to be a mix of both. DOA's environments, stages, and interactions is what makes DOA. Technically this is pretty positive to admit, invulnerability to certain knockdowns and wake up killing setups reduced. They wanted people to not make the game be based off that meta because it makes characters limit their potential to what they can do outside of ground work. It creates a habit for a certain player to continuously perform something with mechanics rather than the toolkits of that particular character. They are not evolving whatsoever. Bladez and many other players thought Helena was trash because of it, but later on he found out that Helena is perfectly fine from what he said himself because well, she is, and Bladez is right. You can still obtain advantage from someone rising, immediate knockdowns, wallsplats into unholdables, and some wake up kick killing options. There is still room for improvement for this but who knows. Overall, I also want it back to how it was from DOA5 and I think it is coming back, but there was a reason on why it was changed in the first place that actually makes sense from the other side's perspective.
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The ground game tho is gonna vary depending on character tho, just like how speeds vary and damage varies across the cast, I don't think toning it down like they did really changed much tbh since there are still characters who can get tech set ups, it's just more tedious to do. Plus DOA6 now has easier ways to escape disadvantageous situations so I don't see a reason why it can't be restored
And there wouldn't really be any real change imo if they just gave certain characters a viable force tech and made it consistent among the cast and just adjust would and wouldn't heavy force tech. I think they could make slower attacks the heavy force tech and maybe give each character 1-2 of them but make them reasonable, like Helena could heavy tech with her low Bokuho sweep in LR but that imo was strange since its 19i where characters like Kasumi had a heavy techs that were slower. They can just give certain 1-2 attacks in each character's move set that property but it doesn't have to be the ones they had in LR. I was actually talking to Brad about it in the other day and I felt like they could give certain character's true mid attacks that property and maybe give it to some heavy lows, but again I don't think in DOA6 it has to be EVERY attack that heavy teched in LR.
They can designate a certain move to do that like with Rachel who imo probably will be the most notable ground techer in 6 regardless of if the other characters get one. But to balance it they could give moves that are as slow as 22i like Rachel's the property since some characters did have swift ones in LR
And there wouldn't really be any real change imo if they just gave certain characters a viable force tech and made it consistent among the cast and just adjust would and wouldn't heavy force tech. I think they could make slower attacks the heavy force tech and maybe give each character 1-2 of them but make them reasonable, like Helena could heavy tech with her low Bokuho sweep in LR but that imo was strange since its 19i where characters like Kasumi had a heavy techs that were slower. They can just give certain 1-2 attacks in each character's move set that property but it doesn't have to be the ones they had in LR. I was actually talking to Brad about it in the other day and I felt like they could give certain character's true mid attacks that property and maybe give it to some heavy lows, but again I don't think in DOA6 it has to be EVERY attack that heavy teched in LR.
They can designate a certain move to do that like with Rachel who imo probably will be the most notable ground techer in 6 regardless of if the other characters get one. But to balance it they could give moves that are as slow as 22i like Rachel's the property since some characters did have swift ones in LR
Monkeygigabuster
Well-Known Member
I just want my boy Akira back to DOA6
So far I only modded this game(haven't played any match since launch since no character in DOA6 resonate with me)
So far I only modded this game(haven't played any match since launch since no character in DOA6 resonate with me)
Players tolerate it and opponents let it happen with the varied ones. Not the same thing. The initial point is that it's there and why it was changed in the first place.
That's literally no different than: "This is easier for game reasons while make others tedious because ehhh not important". If the reward output is the exact same then it shouldn't be tedious. The only time rewards should vary is if execution is involved because if it's immensely hard to do or tedious, you better be damn sure the output for that effort demolishes the ones that's simple to do. But even then, it's not about how tedious it is when the result you've seen is not exactly on par with some of the casts.
Because it goes back to the situation of enforcing a game to follow a meta more often than anything else and why it was toned down. Manny will literally fill you in on that.
People have a tendency to forget the reason on why it was changed in the first place. The only defensive option you'd have left is a break hold, which is a scummy way of saying "We don't want to take the time to make a universal throw break system since we are not good at balancing ourselves, but here's a random hold that uses meter to reduce guesswork that ironically, leaves to more guesswork".
So here's the thing, if DOA does bring it back they have to make sure that everyone can take advantage of this entirely (which is what Manny and most of everyone else is hoping for so that everyone can provide their own unique factor to it). At the moment, the characters who struggled in that department have not changed from this at all except for grapplers which is heaven for them right now. The reason for why they haven't changed from this is because they changed the ground game entirely to which they didn't need to change the characters who struggled in that department. This wouldn't even be a discussion if that particular ground game from the previous game compensated the "entire" roster. But that alone is difficult because you'd have to come up with something unique for everyone and that seems like a lot of work. So what did they do? they changed that particular core. Now the players who relied on it at one point have to play an equal footing into stun launching. That's actually pretty genuine to be fair on TN's end. I mean, they wanted people to not think DOA is solely based off ground work and that there's more to DOA so there you go?
Now me personally? I want it back because I like things that give me advantage for people who like to rely on wake up kicks, on top of setups where even if the low whiffs and they get up i'm still plus depending on what it is. Initially for DOA in itself it's not really good game design, but I liked it so.
I mean any character can force tech. It's the situation you are placed for consistency on how well others do it. But most of other things don't really distribute if part of DOA's main focus is this. Some characters don't thrive in this because they are better at other things such as whiff punishment or movement, however over time DOA has been toning this down with things in reduced movement such as freestep movement, including still having the addition of CH for backdashing. Wazaaaa made a topic about this and complained about this for good reason because it just looks bad that you could get blown up for playing safe to use movement. Some characters movement are far too slow so they have to KBD, which is a risk to get CH blown. Out of all the characters, Rig is possibly one of the few who does this really well in DOA6 that even'd out most of the general bad placements for DOA6, and I feel this is how most characters who struggle should strive to be, to make good use of movement, impacts for when someone stays on the floor or gets up, do things on block for push back into whiff punishment on launch and so on. If every character was like this, I'd think we have an entirely different discussion.
Least in DOA5. If you are not Christie, Akira, Gen Fu, Pai, Leifang, Rig, Ayane, Eliot, and Phase-4 etc., chances are whatever most of the cast might do will get outshined by the select few due to everything placed because most of their strengths from the select few covered most of their weaknesses. But yeah discussion over on my end. If it's back for DOA6 then it's back (niceee, makes it for fun to watch), if it's gone, then it's gone for pretty understandable reasons.
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Jyu_Viole_Grace
Well-Known Member
I can't agree that if a FG isn't balanced then it isn't a good fighting game, mainly because then be should start arguing what makes a game balanced and what not. I mean, if they wanted to balance the game removing ground game and more mechanics, well, Xcal is saying this game has SS and D tiers so ... it doesn't look more balanced than DOA5 to me. I mean. DOA6 obviously favours some characters way more than others, if we follow this premise then to balance this they should remove more mechanics until everyone can play exactly the same way and then every single matchup can be 5-5.
No one is preventing others to have fun with DOA6 but it doesn't look like a lot people is having fun with the game, both in lobbies (lower population than in DOA5 back in the days) and even tournaments. So my point is, if FG developers remove mechanics to try to make FG more balanced and more casual to appeal more people but at the end of the day it doesn't work, should they start learning from theirs and others devs mistakes?
If they want to create "new experiences" no one is preventing to them to do it but don't change something that people like, go for a new IP. If you are so afraid of your concept that you fear low sales then you should start thingk if that concept will also affect negatively your established and well know IP because it can happen and as all we are seeing it happens.
Did I just read that right? I had to refresh the page a few times to see if that isn't a typo (if it is a typo then sorry). If this was an action game killing a bunch of bots, I'd 100% agree with this lel.
This isn't Jojo nor Hokuto No Ken (fun game). It's not MvC and won't be anywhere near that level because there is zero purpose in doing so. Capcom Fighting Evolution was a fun game. But was the game literal ass? well yeah. Yes it was. It was fun for me but there's no denying that it was a busted piece of shit game and it shouldn't determine to what's a good quality game, because what's fun for me may not be fun for others. So you have to pass through that barrier where you try your best to make it fun and balanced as reasonably as possible. You have to hit that middle mark.
Fun game but poorly balanced. Good game? no.
Not a very fun game with poor content and support, but immensely balanced. Good game? no.
Most people are not having fun with the game for multiple reasons. Content related, casual related, balance related, the amount of players in the community investing into the game, tournaments, support, competition vs other fighting games etc. There is a multitude of reasons stacked into one.
This basically reads as "I liked this including some others and so other people must also like what I like, there was no reason to take it away. Screw balance, it's all about me and me only. I use to beat the crap out of this character and now it's beating the crap outta me somehow. What is going on here? it's suppose to be the other way around despite things are not as bad as it seems now!"
TN picked the neutral side regarding the ground game. Do I think it was pretty stupid? yeah, wasn't going to fix things in the long run and wasn't even a core element to make the game "truly" fun, but it was fun. Was it reasonable from TN? some of it yeah. Like I repeated myself, it was changed for both bad and good reasons. TN could of probably came up with a better idea, but they didn't. So......blame TN?
I think the meter system is the biggest contender of incredibly bad choices for "new experiences". If it's things related to this, many would agree with you including me. But yeah that topic is over, we must wait for further news of TN's shenanigans.
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Shining_Wave
Well-Known Member
Would the balance of the game be worse if every character was given an air grab?
I like air grabs and sometimes I'll try one only to be reminded my current character doesn't have one.
I like air grabs and sometimes I'll try one only to be reminded my current character doesn't have one.
Jyu_Viole_Grace
Well-Known Member
This is why I was saying that under this topic then we would start arguing what is a balanced game. Different people different opinions.
For me as far I know the worst DOA 5 matchups weren't virtually impossible to the point to reach 9-1 or even 10-0 like on some other infamous games so I still fail to see why ground game was such a huge deal for them to remove it completely from the game if balance was the reason behind it. Some characters could abuse it more? yes, but that also happen with DOA 6 and other mechanics. I mean, they are only changing the focus.
And trust me, if I want mechanics back (and not only force techs) isn't because that will make my main better, it's because I really think that my character isn't fun to play in DOA6 meanwhile she was in DOA 5.
The way I see the philosophy behind FGs is the same as behind being an martial artist. I don't play necessarily to win, I play to improve myself because that is what I enjoy most. I enjoy the path, not the candy.
I can enjoy a match when I lost but it's intense but I will hardly enjoy a match where I win easily bacause I won't have anything to learn from it. For me this has nothing to do with "now I can't beat this character", mainly because the way DOA6 is I never tried to reach high level (not saying I can if I want, just the idea to try it), I got bored before that happened.
I look at DOA 6 majors and I sincerely don't like this game at high level. At first I thought that I could enjoy some thigs but I was wrong, I tried to enjoy the game, I even tried to change my main but at the end it didn't work for me.
You can think my reasoning is selfish to some extent but that doesn't mean I can't accept some people enjoy it. Even if I'm loud about what I think about DOA6 isn't like I think "you can't enjoy it", it's more like "I don't think TN changes brought a lot more people and made the game necessarily better".
You can believe me or not but what I think about DOA 6 isn't a rant because my win rate is different than in DOA 5. In fact I wanted some changes to DOA 5 because there was some things I didn't like about it but it happened that the cure is worse than the disease to me.
That poll got everyone fucked up lmao
Yurlungur
Well-Known Member
Ground grab, not airgrab because if you're a grappler you deserve oki for some fucked up reason. Personally i'd prefer characters like tina and mila not get more reward off a knockdown then the rest of the cast because why do they deserve to be so special (:
Unless they're sitting a month out of the season pass, we should hear something either this coming Tuesday or the next since that's when DLCs drop and patches usually come out late Monday. I think we'll hear something soon tho since the main account has been promoting their DOA6 winter sale, and if they're following the same SP map like last time we'll get two monthly packs/patches: a revival pack first and then a new dlc pack
Jadeinchains
Well-Known Member
As usual the thread just randomly deciding not to give me alerts. Still no news of anything yet? :I
I guess from the looks of what I missed its safe to say people were less than happy with the poll results? I'm someone that prefers playing as female characters so I'm not going to be annoyed personally about more female characters over male characters but i can totally get why others would be. It is silly the level of disregard the male doa characters get in terms of attention because of how I guess KT has aimed DoA's marketing that they think dlc for male characters wouldn't do as well as female characters i guess? and that a male dlc character wouldn't sell as well I guess? I don't really know.
I like your hint at your Kasumi design
Please let this season be good. And 100% I hope that the fan designs are a part of this season rather than a later one. We had any actual info/leaks at all about who this new female character thats coming is? Is it Sayuri, Misaki etc? Guessing we still don't know the VV girl it is yet.
I guess from the looks of what I missed its safe to say people were less than happy with the poll results? I'm someone that prefers playing as female characters so I'm not going to be annoyed personally about more female characters over male characters but i can totally get why others would be. It is silly the level of disregard the male doa characters get in terms of attention because of how I guess KT has aimed DoA's marketing that they think dlc for male characters wouldn't do as well as female characters i guess? and that a male dlc character wouldn't sell as well I guess? I don't really know.
I like your hint at your Kasumi design
Please let this season be good. And 100% I hope that the fan designs are a part of this season rather than a later one. We had any actual info/leaks at all about who this new female character thats coming is? Is it Sayuri, Misaki etc? Guessing we still don't know the VV girl it is yet.I'd love my Kasumi design to win but Tbh it doesn't matter as long as the winning design has heels and is fitting I'll be happy, I just used my design since it was easy to Photoshop xD and we'll probably get to hear about the VV girl for this season if she's the first since we're getting at least 4 characters by the end of the year ^.^As usual the thread just randomly deciding not to give me alerts. Still no news of anything yet? :I
I guess from the looks of what I missed its safe to say people were less than happy with the poll results? I'm someone that prefers playing as female characters so I'm not going to be annoyed personally about more female characters over male characters but i can totally get why others would be. It is silly the level of disregard the male doa characters get in terms of attention because of how I guess KT has aimed DoA's marketing that they think dlc for male characters wouldn't do as well as female characters i guess? and that a male dlc character wouldn't sell as well I guess? I don't really know.
I like your hint at your Kasumi design