Official Dead or Alive Xtreme Thread

[otnesse]

Import, Shimbori recently said western markets won't even rate the game or want to sell it on shelves.

Yeah, considering he's rather notorious for flip-flopping on his statements, I see little reason to take him at his word. Besides, last I checked, games like Grand Theft Auto and The Witcher had zero problem being stocked on shelves or being rated, nor did God of War or Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain, all of which contained far more graphic nudity and sexual content than DOAX3, or for that matter ANY Xtreme game, ever did (heck, the last one included an explicit rape scene with Quiet in her goodbye episode). If those games could be sold on shelves in the Western Market, DOAX3 most certainly can as well. Probably the only time I recall stores actually refusing to stock any of those things on shelves was BMX XXX, and that had its own problems as it is (like falsely claiming Dave Mirra backed it when he didn't, for example).

 

[Leifang]

Import, Shimbori recently said western markets won't even rate the game or want to sell it on shelves.

Oh okay, thanks for responding.

 

[Macca Beam]

I don't think anybody would be surprised that double standards are rampant in the West
Either that or TN is sacrificing a few sales to avoid unwanted attention which is always a smart move
Importing isn't difficult nowadays anyway

 

[Jackie Chan Fan]

Plus, I think DOAX3 is tame compared to Senran Kagura. I think.

 

[otnesse]

Plus, I think DOAX3 is tame compared to Senran Kagura. I think.

Yeah, and even THAT gets sold on shelves, so Shimbori's "reason" is bullcrap anyways (and that's of course ignoring the other examples I've cited).

I don't think anybody would be surprised that double standards are rampant in the West
Either that or TN is sacrificing a few sales to avoid unwanted attention which is always a smart move
Importing isn't difficult nowadays anyway

If this loses money, it's not "smart" at all. Besides, even "double standards" doesn't cut it especially when the West has no problem selling Senran Kagura on the shelves, or rating it, contrary to Shimbori's claims.

 

[Macca Beam]

You are losing two things: money, and a clickbait article from some thin-skinned journo who doesn't even play your game that could potentially ruin your reputation forever.
To many MANY Japanese developers, this is a good trade. That's why they regularly block foreign IPs.

"double standards" doesn't cut it especially when the West has no problem selling Senran Kagura on the shelves, or rating it, contrary to Shimbori's claims.

... You know that's exactly what "double standards" means, right? According to Shimbori, they refused to put Lewd Game A on the shelves, but in reality they put Lewd Game B, C and D on the shelves. That means they have double standards.

 

[otnesse]

You are losing two things: money, and a clickbait article from some thin-skinned journo who doesn't even play your game that could potentially ruin your reputation forever.
To many MANY Japanese developers, this is a worthy tradeoff. That's why they regularly block foreign IPs.


... You know that's exactly what "double standards" means, right? According to Shimbori, they refused to put Lewd Game A on the shelves, but in reality they put Lewd Game B, C and D on the shelves. That means they have double standards.

Yeah, well, Shimbori's already losing his reputation among the Japanese due to his flip-flopping, so he certainly failed in that tradeoff (and quite frankly, if he ends up killing DOA, he also will permanently go down in history as the man who killed Dead or Alive as a franchise, which means his reputation is STILL destroyed, so I don't see why he should even bother with this.).

And let me clarify, when I say "double standards", I mean they get away with selling games like Metal Gear Solid V, God of War, Grand Theft Auto V, and The Witcher 3, which, aside from the nudity and sexual elements, also have exceedingly graphic violence (heck, if anything with Metal Gear Solid V, it's even MORE censored in Japan due to a certain plot element regarding Paz than it was in the United States). Senran Kagura doesn't even fall under that umbrella and if anything is a LOT closer to DOAX's umbrella, and at the same time is arguably even more lewd there than DOAX3 (even if just barely), so it fails double standards precisely because it fell under the same camp DOAX3 does (and also gets heavily censored by Sony as well).

 

[Jackie Chan Fan]

From what I've seen with Senran Kagura games, the girls get fully nude but no sensitive body parts are shown. And ever, there are white lights that cover it. Not sure if that's the case with Re:Newal. It was not censored by Sony. Only the Intimade Mode (?), right?

I think if there's one DOAX thing that Sony won't allow is the full-body shower scene. lol

I remember Aya Brea's shower scene from The 3rd Birthday. Something that DOAX hasn't done before. The game only got M rating. No censorship like in BMX XXX. lol

 

[Macca Beam]

I'm just going to say this every time someone brings up the word "flip flop":
Show your source.
Since this word was brought up way too often in the context of EOPs reading interviews that are later claimed to be mistranslated. You have zero credibility.

if he ends up killing DOA, he also will permanently go down in history as the man who killed Dead or Alive as a franchise

Don't worry, Itagaki is still unbeatable in that department.

so it fails double standards precisely because it fell under the same camp DOAX3 does

I don't know where you're trying to go with this anymore. Senran Kagura fell under the same camp DOAX3 did, but the treatment it received was not the same. Do you know what this translates to?
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/double-standard#dataset-cacd

Why bother arguing over a term you don't even understand?

 

[Juihau]

If this loses money, it's not "smart" at all. Besides, even "double standards" doesn't cut it especially when the West has no problem selling Senran Kagura on the shelves, or rating it, contrary to Shimbori's claims.

Nah, the west definitely does have problems putting SK on shelves. Recent games have had entirely new covers done in the US because stores will refuse to stock the games with the original covers. Granted, the new covers are entirely new artwork done by the series' main artist, but that is very much still the reason they get new covers. Even with the new covers, though, in my experience, the games are still something you have to ask for at the counter, rather than out on the shelves.

There's also the potential argument that SK is just generally more of a game than X3. Like an ice cream cake vs. cake-flavored ice cream. X3 is mostly about ogling girls while also having some game to play. SK is mostly a game that also lets you ogle girls.

so it fails double standards precisely because it fell under the same camp DOAX3 does (and also gets heavily censored by Sony as well).

"Heavily" censored.

 

[otnesse]

I'm just going to say this every time someone brings up the word "flip flop":
Show your source.
Since this word was brought up way too often in the context of EOPs reading interviews that are later claimed to be mistranslated. You have zero credibility.


Don't worry, Itagaki is still unbeatable in that department.


I don't know where you're trying to go with this anymore. Senran Kagura fell under the same camp DOAX3 did, but the treatment it received was not the same. Do you know what this translates to?
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/double-standard#dataset-cacd

Why bother arguing over a term you don't even understand?

1. Fine, you want a source for my claims about Shimbori, I'll give you a source, which also quotes Shimbori and shows ALL the contradictions: https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/...ouldnt-be-sold-in-stores-says-shimbori/75381/

And for the record, there's plenty more articles in there discussing this bit about flip flopping, and based on the replies, they're definitely not buying his crap (and some of those replies indicate that even the Japanese aren't buying it).

Heck, also look at this source while you're at it: https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/...-didnt-impose-censorship-says-shimbori/75293/ And the author posts links to DOA5 as comparison.

Also: https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/...isunderstood-regarding-clothing-damage/75075/

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/...-appeal-to-female-gamers-says-shimbori/75014/

Heck, just type "DOA6" or "Shimbori", and you can get a whole slew of articles dating all the way back to when the game was first announced.

2. No, Itagaki didn't even come close to killing DOA. If he did kill DOA, we wouldn't even have Xtreme 2, Paradise, Dimensions, DOA5/5U/5LR, Xtreme 3/Venus Vacation/Scarlet, or 6 at all. You want an example of a game franchise that actually WAS killed? Try Dino Crisis. There hasn't been a game from that series since Dino Crisis 3 way back in the early 2000s. Also Dave Mirra's BMX series, thanks largely to both BMX XXX and Acclaim going bankrupt.

3. From the way he was talking, DOAX3 would not even be sold on shelves, yet Senran Kagura more than proved that argument was a lie, even in censored form. And I do know what double standards are. That's exactly why I refuted the double standards bit.

Nah, the west definitely does have problems putting SK on shelves. Recent games have had entirely new covers done in the US because stores will refuse to stock the games with the original covers. Granted, the new covers are entirely new artwork done by the series' main artist, but that is very much still the reason they get new covers. Even with the new covers, though, in my experience, the games are still something you have to ask for at the counter, rather than out on the shelves.

There's also the potential argument that SK is just generally more of a game than X3. Like an ice cream cake vs. cake-flavored ice cream. X3 is mostly about ogling girls while also having some game to play. SK is mostly a game that also lets you ogle girls.

"Heavily" censored.

Maybe I should quote to you what one of the disqus comments said about his claim (though censored due to some bad language):

"We weren’t able to sell it in Europe and in America.”
**** is that *** spastic talking about? They didn't even try, it would have gotten age ratings without much problem.
"Some stores will actually refuse to sell the game"
What stores? This is bull****, stores care about the covers which is why sometimes covers in the west have to be made tamer than they are in japan, but I've never seen a store that refuses to sell Senran Kagura games that are rated, god I'm so sick of this guy, he needs to be removed for the sake of the series.

That was from MusouTensei. And BTW, selling changed covers is NOT the same thing as not selling the game at all.

Also from Narmy:

You ****ing liar. Japanese developed games have much tamer content by default because of CERO. Of course stores can sell a game that doesn't even have nudity when they already sell games like GTA.

So yeah, that's also another reason to take into account Shimbori's basically flip-flopping. Use common sense, CERO actually tones down Japanese games to omit violence and sex, arguably even MORESO than ESRB ever did (case in point: Peace Walker's Japanese version actually censored the torture sequence to Snake by Strangelove by having her use "tickle rods" due to CERO not allowing for electrocution, and they also avoided referencing the torture later on, most notable with Strangelove's apology). Do you really think stores would refuse to sell something that the Japanese made SURE to tone down beforehand anyways? And as pointed out, stores have absolutely no problems with selling the GTA games which are many levels more lewd and reprehensible by any stretch, sex or violence.

And do I have to remind you that Soul Caliber 5, Street Fighter 5 and SNK Heroes 6 are being sold well without any problems (and unlike DOA6 they didn't cut out the fanservice)?

 

[just_me]

lol still lapping up all the OAG outrage bait.

 

[otnesse]

lol still lapping up all the OAG outrage bait.

Would it have been better if I repeated Polygon, IGN, or Kotaku's take? The fact of the matter is, Shimbori is constantly contradicting himself, constantly changing his story, and thus I see zero reason to believe him. Wouldn't matter if OAG or Kotaku reported it, I still would have not found any reason to believe him. To put it simply, he should stick to his dang story.

Well, in any case, to get back on topic, we have to wait until January 25 before Fiona's level 80 episode is fully released. Long story short, Toda Erica needs to wait since Fiona was technically just released for free this week.

 

[UpSideDownGRUNT]

DOA is marketed completely different in West and Asia that's why he's "contradicting himself" they want to market DOA as a gritty and serious fighting game in the west and as an Eroge Fighter in Asia and Japan that's why Strongest Edition exists in Japan but not in North America for example.

 

[otnesse]

DOA is marketed completely different in West and Asia that's why he's "contradicting himself" they want to market DOA as a gritty and serious fighting game in the west and as an Eroge Fighter in Asia and Japan that's why Strongest Edition exists in Japan but not in North America for example.

Let me clarify: He's contradicting himself regarding his story to the actual western developers, saying for example SONY has no censorship involvement, but then acting like it does. And if he truly was concerned with western press, why doesn't he just secretly record their interview, then if they say anything that is not what he said, misrepresented him in other words, he plays the tapes in public and to their bosses as insurance, like what that guy did with Mike Wallace.

 

[Macca Beam]

1. Fine, you want a source for my claims about Shimbori, I'll give you a source, which also quotes Shimbori and shows ALL the contradictions
And for the record, there's plenty more articles in there discussing this bit about flip flopping, and based on the replies, they're definitely not buying his crap (and some of those replies indicate that even the Japanese aren't buying it).
Heck, also look at this source while you're at it: And the author posts links to DOA5 as comparison.

I don't think this fully came across (unsurprisingly). I don't need a bunch of English texts that can be anything based on the translator/interpreter/article writer's whim. I don't need to hear a personal take. And I especially do not want to read literal whos' "replies". Don't be the person who cites Wikipedia in their research papers.

Where are the Japanese transcripts?

DOA5/5U/5LR, Xtreme 3/Venus Vacation/Scarlet, or 6 at all.

These games were the result of the series being salvaged under other hands and even then, there was a continuing struggle to clean up all the aspects which caused it to be called the shallow titty fighter for the longest time.

3. From the way he was talking, DOAX3 would not even be sold on shelves, yet Senran Kagura more than proved that argument was a lie, even in censored form. And I do know what double standards are. That's exactly why I refuted the double standards bit.

No, Senran Kagura proved that stores treated X3 differently from the way they treated that series, hence double standards. This is what everybody sees from a neutral point of view. Of course from a Xtremebabby's point of view, Shimbori is in the wrong since he has to be evil and lying.

 

[just_me]

And do I have to remind you that Soul Caliber 5, Street Fighter 5 and SNK Heroes 6 are being sold well without any problems (and unlike DOA6 they didn't cut out the fanservice)?

… SCVI cut more than half of its female cast, lewd CAS parts and outfits that were in Lost Swords are not in SCVI as well as a multitude of old costumes. SFV changed various intros, costumes, and basically removed its boob physics completely. How does that not constitute “cutting out it's fanservice”

Also, all these games have a Teen rating from the ESRB while DOA6 got an M due to its fanservicy content… so either DOA as a series is under more scrutiny by the ESRB, or DOA6 does feature noticeably more fanservice than the games mentioned above.

Not sure what this CERO stuff is supposed to prove… Omega Labyrinth Z released in Japan without issues but was not released in the West specifically citing issues with the rating process. JP games get into trouble from time to time with various rating boards, especially in Australia and recently Germany. Also, the quote from Shimbori is:

That being said, it is a fact that costume damage has been reduced. If we had extensive damage to the costumes to the point that characters are almost nude, it would become really hard to sell the game in certain territories.

(https://twinfinite.net/2019/01/dead-or-alive-6-censorship/ )

What makes anyone think that applies to the US exclusively, or at all?
He didn't even imply that they could not possibly have pushed farther, just that they played it safe so they can safely release… extensive Clothing destruction is not a core feature of the series it didn't exist till the SK collab even in X3 it's only DLC, why would this be a hill to die on anyway?

None of these comments are evidence of anything either… just that some randos on the internet think he's a liar.

 

[KasumiLover]

… SCVI cut more than half of its female cast and lewd CAS parts and outfits that were in Lost Swords are not in SCVI as well as a multitude of old costumes. SFV changed various intros, costumes, and basically removed its boob physics completely. How does that not constitute “cutting out it's fanservice”

Also, all these games have a Teen rating from the ESRB while DOA6 got an M due to its fanservicy content… so either DOA as a series is under more scrutiny by the ESRB, or DOA6 does feature noticeably more fanservice than the games mentioned above.

Not sure what this CERO stuff is supposed to prove… Omega Labyrinth Z released in Japan without issues, but was not released in the West specifically citing issues with the rating process. JP games get into trouble from time to time with various rating boards, especially in Australia and recently Germany. Also, the quote from Shimbori is:


(https://twinfinite.net/2019/01/dead-or-alive-6-censorship/ )

What makes anyone think that applies to the US exclusively, or at all?
He didn't even imply that they could not possibly have pushed farther, just that they played it safe so they can safely release… extensive Clothing destruction is not a core feature of the series it didn't exist till the SK collab even in X3 it's only DLC, why would this be a hill to die on anyway?

None of these comments are evidence of anything either… just that some randos on the internet think he's a liar.

Well tbf the outfits in Lost Swords were designed by actual hentai/general Japanese fashion guest designers so that's why they haven't returned like how guest fighters and costumes don't usuallt return in games, the default outfits for the girls in SC6 are still all quite lewd and designed to cater to certain kinks xD and the game is getting 100 old DLC parts as DLC soon SFV still has boob physics in game, and costumes are still sexualized for everyone.

 

[just_me]

Well tbf the outfits in Lost Swords were designed by actual hentai/general Japanese fashion guest designers so that's why they haven't returned like how guest fighters and costumes don't usuallt return in games, the default outfits for the girls in SC6 are still all quite lewd and designed to cater to certain kinks xD and the game is getting 100 old DLC parts as DLC soon SFV still has boob physics in game, and costumes are still sexualized for everyone.

I'm pretty sure that they will bring back that stuff as DLC at some point, the point is it's not in on release and we can make a pretty educated guess why… ensuring the T rating and of course charging for the unaltered, recycled assets again.

If I do the pointless bean counting: X is “normal”, Taki is roughly the same, Sophy and Ivy are less than SCIV, Talim and Mina are more. Everything else is already DLC.
SFV toned all these things down… to a level far below what we will get with DOA6's Vanilla release. I don't care about any of that stuff in particular, but the examples don't support his argument. I don't know anything about SNK Heroines (I think that's what he meant), seems nobody bought it anyway.

 

[otnesse]

I don't think this fully came across (unsurprisingly). I don't need a bunch of English texts that can be anything based on the translator/interpreter/article writer's whim. I don't need to hear a personal take. And I especially do not want to read literal whos' "replies". Don't be the person who cites Wikipedia in their research papers.

Where are the Japanese transcripts?


These games were the result of the series being salvaged under other hands and even then, there was a continuing struggle to clean up all the aspects which caused it to be called the shallow titty fighter for the longest time.


No, Senran Kagura proved that stores treated X3 differently from the way they treated that series, hence double standards. This is what everybody sees from a neutral point of view. Of course from a Xtremebabby's point of view, Shimbori is in the wrong since he has to be evil and lying.

1. The only time Japanese transcripts were posted were for Famitsu. The other stuff have yet to be given publicly (and in the case of GameSpot's interview with him, it's extremely unlikely there's even ANY Japanese transcripts since GameSpot isn't Japan-based, it's USA based.). And BTW, the guy who did write those articles, Billy D, HAD gone out of his way to talk with Shimbori, and Shimbori STILL changed his stories. Other than that, he also posted in an article all the tweets Shimbori made, in Japanese, while also providing his translation.

2. No, when a game is dead, it's literally "dead", ie, it can't even go under new management, certainly not for an extended period of time. Look at Acclaim or Factor-5. All those game companies went bankrupt, with no more Rogue Squadron or anything like that. Heck, when Disney bought Lucasfilm, LucasArts ended up folding, with no Star Wars games from them. And quite frankly, what's going on with DOA6 is causing people on Twitter to drop the game from what I heard. There are plenty of examples of this under Franchise Killer or Creator Killer.

3. Actually, I'm not even a big fan of Xtreme 3 because of how badly done it was (if anything, I consider a gacha game, Xtreme Venus Vacation, to be better than Xtreme 3), not to mention cutting out most of its cast and even gutting character interactions. Yet guess what? Xtreme 3 is STILL able to be sold outside of countries. If Senran Kagura, which BTW is under a lot of hot water especially for what it entails, can be sold in stores, Xtreme 3 can as well (and let's not forget, Dead or Alive Paradise, aka, the PSP Xtreme 2 port, did well enough to revitalize the series.).

… SCVI cut more than half of its female cast, lewd CAS parts and outfits that were in Lost Swords are not in SCVI as well as a multitude of old costumes. SFV changed various intros, costumes, and basically removed its boob physics completely. How does that not constitute “cutting out it's fanservice”

Also, all these games have a Teen rating from the ESRB while DOA6 got an M due to its fanservicy content… so either DOA as a series is under more scrutiny by the ESRB, or DOA6 does feature noticeably more fanservice than the games mentioned above.

Not sure what this CERO stuff is supposed to prove… Omega Labyrinth Z released in Japan without issues but was not released in the West specifically citing issues with the rating process. JP games get into trouble from time to time with various rating boards, especially in Australia and recently Germany. Also, the quote from Shimbori is:


(https://twinfinite.net/2019/01/dead-or-alive-6-censorship/ )

What makes anyone think that applies to the US exclusively, or at all?
He didn't even imply that they could not possibly have pushed farther, just that they played it safe so they can safely release… extensive Clothing destruction is not a core feature of the series it didn't exist till the SK collab even in X3 it's only DLC, why would this be a hill to die on anyway?

None of these comments are evidence of anything either… just that some randos on the internet think he's a liar.

Let me also remind you that GTA V and The Witcher 3 had far more evidence towards his claims being false (both games featured FAR more lewd content than Xtreme 3 ever did, yet they're sold in stores). And besides, do I have to remind you of Soul Calibur 6 and SNK Heroines being able to be sold at all? And based on a comment made on this article, that had even MORE fanservice than DOA6: https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/...ouldnt-be-sold-in-stores-says-shimbori/75381/ Specifically, from B unit: "Oh I guess Soul Calibur 6 and SNK Heroines couldn't be sold? **** off Shimbori . Don't insult your fanbases intelligence."

And BTW, here's a source, that's NOT OAG, that shows he's a flip-flopper: https://nichegamer.com/2018/08/26/breast-physics-added-back-to-dead-or-alive-6-now-more-realistic/