Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Now that version 1.03 is out, anyone notice any changes? There's nothing listed about the tracking on her sweeps being fixed and her FS's still only work on crouching CH :/
Offical Helena Gameplay Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Project Bokuho
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Akumasama
Active Member
The fact that somehow shorter air juggles were dealing more damage than longer ones has been a thing even in past DoA games since DoA2 though.
Granted it was pretty random and wasn't always true, but it was there and I remember it being discussed (with people splitting among those who apreciated it and those who hated it) aplenty in multiple communities.
I've got mixed feelings about it, but overall I've always been positive towards this approach. It's mostly good imo when you cannot escape a thing (air juggle) once you get caught by a single hit (launcher).
Specifically about DoA6 I still think there's something to do about the damage scaling of a few things, like the damage % bonus for hi counter for instance. It's good that it's there (always has been obviously) but in some situations it should be moderately scaled down.
I can say the same about some combos that get extended artificially by environment interactions.
Those interactions to damage by itself (sometimes too much, should be scaled down) and do not contribute to the damage scaling that normally happens the more the number of hits goes up.
This should change as well and combos that get artificially extend by that means should receive a stronger scaling, imo.
It feels bad when you receive them, and it feels terribly unsatisfactory when you deal them.
Dealing like >85% of damage with a single sorta unescapable combo to your opponent is cool the first times, but it grows old quick after that.
Meh, off topic in the Helena thread. Also I want to see how playing in lobbies (with larger health bars potentially) changes anything in that regard.
Granted it was pretty random and wasn't always true, but it was there and I remember it being discussed (with people splitting among those who apreciated it and those who hated it) aplenty in multiple communities.
I've got mixed feelings about it, but overall I've always been positive towards this approach. It's mostly good imo when you cannot escape a thing (air juggle) once you get caught by a single hit (launcher).
Specifically about DoA6 I still think there's something to do about the damage scaling of a few things, like the damage % bonus for hi counter for instance. It's good that it's there (always has been obviously) but in some situations it should be moderately scaled down.
I can say the same about some combos that get extended artificially by environment interactions.
Those interactions to damage by itself (sometimes too much, should be scaled down) and do not contribute to the damage scaling that normally happens the more the number of hits goes up.
This should change as well and combos that get artificially extend by that means should receive a stronger scaling, imo.
It feels bad when you receive them, and it feels terribly unsatisfactory when you deal them.
Dealing like >85% of damage with a single sorta unescapable combo to your opponent is cool the first times, but it grows old quick after that.
Meh, off topic in the Helena thread. Also I want to see how playing in lobbies (with larger health bars potentially) changes anything in that regard.
Akumasama
Active Member
Still happens occasionally.
I'm sure you're aware but that kick by Helena is not the only thing that produces that result.
There are many other low sweeps and sometimes even mid/high tracking moves.
I've noticed it happens in a very short frames window, if you happen to do your sidestep attack during that miniscule window, for some reason you will escape a small number of attacks that are supposed to track.
I think it's also related to a hitbox issue that some people already noticed and reported in another thread.
If you go to the training mode you'll notice how same char vs same char, same conditions of thresholds, counters etc, same identical combo sometimes it's gonna work, sometimes it will wiff.
It's not a command input latency, it's been tested artificially on PC with "tools" to input commands identically.
It's not an issue with the "foot" positionment (that's a long time DoA feature).
It's something else and it's new in DoA6 and it sounds like such a subtle problem that I wonder if they will ever manage to fix it.
It's just a hunch but I feel it's this problem specifically that is somehow connected to the fact that, sometimes, attacks that should track sidesteps end up being avoided by sidestep attacks.
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PhoenixVFIRE
Well-Known Member
yeah but it wasnt /nearly/ as prevalent tho, now it's practically every character. You're no longer rewarded for coming up with amazing combos, and instead penalized bc you didnt end the combo 5 hits ago with a close hit which just makes everyone see the same boring combo. it's sad after a while, a lot of creative and damaging combos aren't even possible anymore :/ but this is my personal takeaway. im still enjoying the game for what it is, but it's like we traded all of that for break blow resets...
Akumasama
Active Member
The fact that to maximize damage (we're not talking about 2-3 more damage, but a lot more) you need to do those slam on the floor + close hit combos is... boring.
By now it's clear those combos are by far the most efficient combos for every character and so you find people always using the same finishers and you using always the same combos yourself.
Pretty boring...
Longer combos, as of now and aside from a small bunch of exceptions, basically are only rewarding when the longer combo allows you to slam your opponent against an object and produce an environment interaction which, consequentially, will allow you to make the combo be even longer.
Aside from those situations it's just like you said, it's never worth it and it's quite shallow.
I mean game is still fresh now and I'm still enjoying it fully, wholehartedly, but I wonder how things will feel 6 months from now, if things will stay as they are. I'm kinda concerned and pessimistic about it atm
So I kinda hope TecmoKoei will do something to shake things up, eventually.
Like (trying to get this train back on topic now) on Helena 99% of the times I find myself using the same combo that somehow ends with 4+P,K from BT, then 6+PK for a close hit. It's always like that, and it's so much better than anything else that it's hard to justify using other options.
If the difference was smaller hey, you could use something different just for the sake of aestetics or variation, but when the difference is this big it feels like you don't really have a choice.
By now it's clear those combos are by far the most efficient combos for every character and so you find people always using the same finishers and you using always the same combos yourself.
Pretty boring...
Longer combos, as of now and aside from a small bunch of exceptions, basically are only rewarding when the longer combo allows you to slam your opponent against an object and produce an environment interaction which, consequentially, will allow you to make the combo be even longer.
Aside from those situations it's just like you said, it's never worth it and it's quite shallow.
I mean game is still fresh now and I'm still enjoying it fully, wholehartedly, but I wonder how things will feel 6 months from now, if things will stay as they are. I'm kinda concerned and pessimistic about it atm
So I kinda hope TecmoKoei will do something to shake things up, eventually.Like (trying to get this train back on topic now
) on Helena 99% of the times I find myself using the same combo that somehow ends with 4+P,K from BT, then 6+PK for a close hit. It's always like that, and it's so much better than anything else that it's hard to justify using other options.If the difference was smaller hey, you could use something different just for the sake of aestetics or variation, but when the difference is this big it feels like you don't really have a choice.
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
That's intended I believe. There's even a specific tutorial lesson explaining how certain Fatal Stuns only trigger on crouching and counter hit. I doubt they're going to change it to just crouching.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Part of the appeal of Helena, at least for me, is the fact that there are so many different combo variants available an any given time. As someone who has played every version of Helena (with the exception of the 3DS version), I personally found the DOA5 version of Helena the most repetitive.The fact that to maximize damage (we're not talking about 2-3 more damage, but a lot more) you need to do those slam on the floor + close hit combos is... boring.
By now it's clear those combos are by far the most efficient combos for every character and so you find people always using the same finishers and you using always the same combos yourself.
Pretty boring...
Longer combos, as of now and aside from a small bunch of exceptions, basically are only rewarding when the longer combo allows you to slam your opponent against an object and produce an environment interaction which, consequentially, will allow you to make the combo be even longer.
Aside from those situations it's just like you said, it's never worth it and it's quite shallow.
I mean game is still fresh now and I'm still enjoying it fully, wholehartedly, but I wonder how things will feel 6 months from now, if things will stay as they are. I'm kinda concerned and pessimistic about it atm
Like (trying to get this train back on topic now
If the difference was smaller hey, you could use something different just for the sake of aestetics or variation, but when the difference is this big it feels like you don't really have a choice.
If you go for maximum damage every time you will end up doing the same few combo's ad nauseam. When I've compared my strings and I haven't noticed much of a difference in combo damage overall, usually it's like 1 or 2 points of damage. Varying your knockdowns is a good way to throw off how your opponents tech's. Swapping 6P+K for 4PKK trades potential environmental damage for oki, and if you can make a good/decent read you can get more damage than a wall splat will.
BKO 3P+K > BT P+K > 9PKP is a cool looking string.
BKO 3P+K > BT 4P+K < PP4K sets up an immediate BT 66K2 regardless of whether they tech immediately or stay on the ground.
66KPP lands off of an airborne BT 4PK bound if Helena is in BT when she launches. So 7K > 4P+K > 4PKF > 66KPP works, even on heavyweights. I think the damage and knock back is equal to BKO 6P+K, as long as you charge the last punch for a slight moment.
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
Made a combo video for the queen of Bokuho:
Tell me what you think about it!
Tell me what you think about it!
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Is it me or have our i12 mid's had their damage reduced? I could be wrong about this, but if I'm right, then we will have a hard time contesting i12 mid's at the start of the round.
For instance, Tina's hold 3P does 27 damage on CH. Helena's 6P does 22 damage on CH, meaning she would lose. Even Helena's BT 4K only does 25 damage on CH. I think this means at round start, we can't beat Tina's hold 3P with any of our pokes, as it high crushes and hits Helena out of BKO duck. Fortunately it doesn't track, but I had no idea Tina could trash us at the beginning of the round like that. Is that new?
I could be wrong on the damage, but I always remember BT 4K trumping i12 mids at round start in DOA5. Either way, Tina is clearly is scary in this game.
For instance, Tina's hold 3P does 27 damage on CH. Helena's 6P does 22 damage on CH, meaning she would lose. Even Helena's BT 4K only does 25 damage on CH. I think this means at round start, we can't beat Tina's hold 3P with any of our pokes, as it high crushes and hits Helena out of BKO duck. Fortunately it doesn't track, but I had no idea Tina could trash us at the beginning of the round like that. Is that new?
I could be wrong on the damage, but I always remember BT 4K trumping i12 mids at round start in DOA5. Either way, Tina is clearly is scary in this game.
Akumasama
Active Member
Few questions about Helena against other characters:
Brad Wong
When he does his run+P shoulder/laydown thing how can you tell when it's safe to do a low throw and when it's not? (depends on how much he ran/how close he touched you). If not throw, anything else safe to use for Helena after that?
Also is it normal his 2+F+K often avoids mids?
Nyotengu
Once she slams you on the ground with one of her air flight combos, is there no way to avoid the ground throw?
Also, is it normal her backflip (I think it's 7+K?) can often avoid mid wake up kick? Wat? Is it meant to be or a bug?
Tina
Once she sends you in the air high enough that she can do an air throw, is a subsequent ground throw guaranteed? I can't seem to get out of it.
Also, more in general, is ground throw guaranteed for her every time she uses a knock-on-the-ground move, no matter if it hits normal or counter hit?
Rig
When he does his throw from his "leg up" stance he's back in his leg up stance again, with a couple of frames advantage. What's the best route to go for, from there? Standing P since it's 11frames?
Hitomi
After her front knee throw (6,6,T?) she's at frame advantage. Are there any good options or is it simply a matter of guessing against Hitomi doing another throw, a tracking kick, or whatever else? (out of habit I normally do 1+P+K, 2,2 and then either a Punch or a Throw, but it's risky as you need to be incredibly fast, just a single wasted frame and it's gonna go wrong)
Brad Wong
When he does his run+P shoulder/laydown thing how can you tell when it's safe to do a low throw and when it's not? (depends on how much he ran/how close he touched you). If not throw, anything else safe to use for Helena after that?
Also is it normal his 2+F+K often avoids mids?
Nyotengu
Once she slams you on the ground with one of her air flight combos, is there no way to avoid the ground throw?
Also, is it normal her backflip (I think it's 7+K?) can often avoid mid wake up kick? Wat? Is it meant to be or a bug?
Tina
Once she sends you in the air high enough that she can do an air throw, is a subsequent ground throw guaranteed? I can't seem to get out of it.
Also, more in general, is ground throw guaranteed for her every time she uses a knock-on-the-ground move, no matter if it hits normal or counter hit?
Rig
When he does his throw from his "leg up" stance he's back in his leg up stance again, with a couple of frames advantage. What's the best route to go for, from there? Standing P since it's 11frames?
Hitomi
After her front knee throw (6,6,T?) she's at frame advantage. Are there any good options or is it simply a matter of guessing against Hitomi doing another throw, a tracking kick, or whatever else? (out of habit I normally do 1+P+K, 2,2 and then either a Punch or a Throw, but it's risky as you need to be incredibly fast, just a single wasted frame and it's gonna go wrong)
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KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
Since I'm a Rig main I'll give you some advice.
The throw you're talking about is Rig's Bending Stance Throw. The throw is a reset which leaves him in stance again and grants him +9 frame advantage. From there he has access to another Bending Stance throw, an i10 high kick (K), i18 safe tracking mid kick (3K), i14 mid kick into high kick (4KK) which gives him +1 on block, an unsafe mid punch which gives him a fatal stun (P) or low kick mixups. He has more options but those are his best options and are used quite a bit by Rig players.
So if I'm not mistaken your question would be how to counter this and how to escape the pressure, as Helena.
First off, if you're good at fuzzy guarding, you can avoid both his reset throw and his standing strike options. In that case you'd only have to worry about his lows, which aren't threatening at all. So that's the best general counter, imo. I would be against sidestepping since his stance throw, BS H+K and BS 3K all catch sidesteps and are commonly used by Rig players.
Aside from fuzzy guarding, a good counter against his stance pressure would be to use crush moves. Of course he has the upper hand with +9 frame advantage, but sometimes you have to take risks and guess he's either going for a throw, or a high kick (his highs are frame traps, so you want to not block them, but crush them instead!). 4P, 1P and P+K crush his high attacks very well and lets you escape the pressure.
Also on a bit of an unrelated note, watch out for Rig's 6KK. Even though the kicks aren't true mids, the second kick of 6KK will still stuff Helena out of her Bokuho duck (BKO 22) for some reason. I learned this when I played Rig against @Omegan Eckhart, so that's always a string you want to either hold or sidestep when you suspect it's coming.
In the end it's still a bit of a guessing game, but I hope this at least somewhat helped you out with regard to countering Rig.
KING JAIMY
Well-Known Member
Also, this isn't Helena specific, but 447 works really well against Hitomi's 6T pressure. You can avoid throws and block strike mixups at the same time.
Credit to RATH for the video:
Few questions about Helena against other characters:
Brad Wong
When he does his run+P shoulder/laydown thing how can you tell when it's safe to do a low throw and when it's not? (depends on how much he ran/how close he touched you). If not throw, anything else safe to use for Helena after that?
Also is it normal his 2+F+K often avoids mids?
I do not recommend to go for 2t against Brad after blocking his running p, because the move becomes safe when executed at a certain range. I am not a Helena player, but I think Helena's 4p could beat all Brad's options after his running p. That move of hers seems a quick enough mid punch that tracks and crouches. If that is true, not even Brad's lying t would stop her. Sadly, I think I will not be able to play the game at least until the next week, so please give it a try in the lab and let us know...
Nothing comes to my mind regarding Brad's 2h+k being a mid crusher... Perhaps the non-true mids...
Akumasama
Active Member
Only happened a couple of times, but it crushed my wake up mid kick. Against the same user.
If you ask me it felt more like a bug than something intended, even because it wasn't 100%.
I get the same vibes against other moves that sometimes, for some reason, seem to avoid and crush mid wake up kicks, but not all of the times.
I seriously wonder if this is a consequence of that bug that other people already noticed from day one that creates different outcomes with the same situations, or if in these specific situations the dev team wanted to make those specific moves safe against mid wake up kicks but only in an extremely reduced window of frames.
I really really wonder.
Whether it's a bug or meant to be, it still feels like a pretty wonky mechanic though, if you ask me.
About the 4+P from Helena that you suggest, I guess I'll try in the lab, but I don't know how to test the different frames according to how close/far he hits you.
4+P isn't the fastest move from Helena, but it has nice properties and it's one of the few tracking moves.
The more I delve deeper into special Helena vs others matches, the more I learn about other characters special properties, the more it feels like Helena isn't really that tough in terms of safe/guaranteed stuff.
See how many moves leave her on advantage if guarded, how many moves leave her on advantage if interrupted, how many guaranteed stuff she has, how many tracking attacks, her fatal stuns.
Not sure if I'm whining/complaining, just voicing up my mind. I still love playing as Helena but sometimes it really does feel like they were scared about her, when they decided to give certain options to most other characters but left out on purpose Helena (and others, she's not alone of course).
Akumasama
Active Member
https://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/bb-into-guaranteed-followup.8447/
Anybody found any interesting setup for Helena after BB without wall hit?
Anybody found any interesting setup for Helena after BB without wall hit?
MasterGamer
Member
If you time it right, 66K will hit. I haven't really experimented with this though.
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
I haven't played in a while, but today I tested the BKO set up against Busa's 6KP on block and have been able to go into BKO and avoid the throw every time. Did something change? This was tested prior to the lobby patch.
Edit: 1P+K, 2P+K and 3P+K all switch to crouching on the 4th frame, this seems to be in-line with crouch blocking. This means if we read a standing throw after the opponent is left at +, we can enter BKO without eating a standing throw during transition. This also makes BKO duck in neutral stronger, as we are less likely to get hit with high's when transitioning.
Side note: Am I going nuts, or are BKO 22P / 22P+K missing audio when they whiff? Seems like every other move has an accompanying piece audio, but dead silence on those two.
Edit: 1P+K, 2P+K and 3P+K all switch to crouching on the 4th frame, this seems to be in-line with crouch blocking. This means if we read a standing throw after the opponent is left at +, we can enter BKO without eating a standing throw during transition. This also makes BKO duck in neutral stronger, as we are less likely to get hit with high's when transitioning.
Side note: Am I going nuts, or are BKO 22P / 22P+K missing audio when they whiff? Seems like every other move has an accompanying piece audio, but dead silence on those two.
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Well, I did some testing with @TRI Mike. We found Helena's 4p consistently beat every attack that Brad has after his runing p as well as his offensive hold and side step. I now realize we did not test Brad's backroll (which he uses to exit the lying stance) but I looks like 4p will beat it too. Moreover, 4p seems to always connect on BT Brad and its follow-ups seem to connect as well. It sounds like a severe punish is posible...
Omegan Eckhart
Well-Known Member
Anyone notice how much range Helena can cover with BKO Dash > P+K?