Jann Lee changes

[KING JAIMY]

I think Rig is the most ridiculous in that sense, he might have the best stance in the game honestly, other than Ayane, but that's because she's essentially 2 characters. Rig gets tacking moves, moves that can leave him at advantage, lows, a reset throw, a sit down stun for a guaranteed launch, the ability to feint (6K4), crushes and an attack that can leave you back turned. Way too much.

True, but Rig is a purely offensive character so it would make sense to give him a powerful offensive stance with many offensive tools. On the other hand, Rig's defense is lacking in a lot of areas so I still think he's pretty balanced.

As for Jann Lee, I'm not sure if he is regarded as a primarily offensive and defensive character. I'd say he is dynamic/balanced in the sense that he can pretty much adapt to any situation. As you've already pointed out, Jann Lee's weakness is lack of mix-ups and it would not hurt to give him a throw in Dragon Stance which would not only improve his mix-up game but also make him even more dynamic.

 

[8ml4]

All he need is 66T from DOA5 (18 frame if my memory is good),

 

[Lulu]

LoL yeah that throw is better than all of Jacky's throws.

To be honnest that Dragon Gunner is a real nuissance.

 

[8ml4]

Without dragon gunner, its hard to open the guard with jann lee, he don t have a good low and his mix up is poor... with actually dragon gunner, you can avoid easy in reaction offline...

 

[Lulu]

I just like how jams his foot all up in his opponents.... that animation is brutal.

Can you imagine if somebody did that to you ? ....I'd give up.

 

[Jefffcore]

So Kasumi has 2 versions of her stance: the teleport, and the dash.

- 66pp > teleport. On hit you're at -2 if you don't teleport, and on block you're -6 or -7 if you don't.

If blocked, everything but the throw can be SS'd on reaction. The only option that can't be punished is the jump kick.

On hit she only has one option that can't be escaped by low hold.

Whether on hit or block, Kasumi's choice to teleport is very one sided, where Jann lees isn't.

- P+K > dash has a follow up with a decent stun, so the choice to go into it on hit isn't as necessary.

If she dashes on hit, the jump kick doesn't work as she's too close and jumps over them. This leaves her with a guess between high and mid kick.

On block her following to P+K is unsafe as well as the 2 options from teleport.

Kasumi absolutely needs a throw from her teleport.

Hayabusa is only using his throw in 2 different transitions: 6P+K, and 66k

- 66k is a guard break that forces you into stance, I don think anything else needs to be said.

- 6P+K is closer to a Jann Lee situation. Like Jann lee, he doesn't need to go into stance, he can just stun and throw. The only time he needs to go into stance is on block.


Jann Lees stance isn't comparable to Kasumi's, and it's only comparable to Hayabusa's in one situation.

 

[MaxiKilla]

Without dragon gunner, its hard to open the guard with jann lee, he don t have a good low and his mix up is poor... with actually dragon gunner, you can avoid easy in reaction offline...

They could remove the DG and give him faster low kicks. His DG hold can stay.

 

[Lulu]

They could remove the DG and give him faster low kicks. His DG hold can stay.

Would these low Kick Stun on normal hit ?

LoL.... they would be pretty strong if they did.

 

[MaxiKilla]

Would these low Kick Stun on normal hit ?

LoL.... they would be pretty strong if they did.

That would be nice since his 1k is slow and unsafe on block. A safe low kick that's faster than 2k so p can follow up. No stun

 

[DroWin_MaN]

Shit they need to give jann back 12 frame mid kick. It'll be a lil easier to fight off them crush characters. Like helena

 

[WAZAAAAA]

I just had the best idea: make his Dragon Gunner hit crouching targets on the first active frame and standing on the rest

 

[8ml4]

Jann lee is very good like that, he is fast, damage are awesome, hold mid p and mid k are crazy. Remove dragon stance and reset his OH 18 frames and it s perfect.

Dragon stance is shit, its good ONLY next wall after throw, it would be useful if DS 6k would a critical burst

 

[KING JAIMY]

I just had the best idea: make his Dragon Gunner hit crouching targets on the first active frame and standing on the rest

Because screw fuzzy guarding?

 

[RyuJin]

Giving Jann a throw from DS maybe a bit to strong. It would be great in open area's to give him a tracking/break someone guard option BUT seeing as he can do it from his wall throw maybe a bit to strong. As Max pointed out a while ago. Seeing as you can keep someone at the wall for the whole match with 2p, 8p, and 6t resets (if they do not guess right) a throw would be a bit much.

I think I said this before but i'll say it again. It feels as if any small change to this character could just make him to strong. I would like to see the shake recovery cut from moves like 66k, 46k, 216p, etc, but...if he knocks you into an object he would go to S tier. Like if he knocked someone into a table in home from across the map with say 66k. He would be able to run in and do 3k (can SE it down to 16) then H+K into a burst. This is of course only if they don't SE 3k enough but maybe a bit to strong. I'm now going to try to look at this situation differently. Like I'm going to look at my knock back attacks as a way to break the objects before they can be used against me. Now you still should make it your first priority to get out of the house (depending on what character you are fighting) so you don't have to deal with being thrown into the ceiling.

6k returning to 12 frames yes. I don't see that being to much to ask for.

His mid kick parry needs to attack sooner so it can be used as a counter to the mid kick wake up. You could speed up the start up so it can be used mid string but I'm not a fan of that idea. Seems like something a true defensive character (Lei Fang) should be able to do.

Someone (Max,Jeff,Dark maybe???) pointed out giving JL a guard break from his 1pp and 3kp strings. I'd be ok with that as well. Of course it should be safe...guard breaks that are not safe or plus don't seem right to me. Those attacks look like they have a lot of power behind them and for the character to just stand there and get thrown afterwords or rushed down is odd. You may as well give them an animation of them holding there hand/leg in pain if that is going to be the case.

I'd like DG to be faster again but 18 maybe bit much. Seeing as he is not a grappler I'd be fine with 20 or 21.

Lastly I'm not a fan of things like 66k and 6pp being crushed at point blank range. A few characters can do this and its not cool. Helena using BKO to do so I'm fine with but someone coming in with an attack is not cool. Well... really I just don't like MID attacks being crushed at all lol. Other then like I said Helena's BKO.

 

[DroWin_MaN]

rising 4 6 P should be a GB, that's his most difficult move to perform and it's unsafe,or atleast make it a bit more safe

 

[Darkslay]

Giving Jann a throw from DS maybe a bit to strong. It would be great in open area's to give him a tracking/break someone guard option BUT seeing as he can do it from his wall throw maybe a bit to strong. As Max pointed out a while ago. Seeing as you can keep someone at the wall for the whole match with 2p, 8p, and 6t resets (if they do not guess right) a throw would be a bit much.

I think I said this before but i'll say it again. It feels as if any small change to this character could just make him to strong. I would like to see the shake recovery cut from moves like 66k, 46k, 216p, etc, but...if he knocks you into an object he would go to S tier. Like if he knocked someone into a table in home from across the map with say 66k. He would be able to run in and do 3k (can SE it down to 16) then H+K into a burst. This is of course only if they don't SE 3k enough but maybe a bit to strong. I'm now going to try to look at this situation differently. Like I'm going to look at my knock back attacks as a way to break the objects before they can be used against me. Now you still should make it your first priority to get out of the house (depending on what character you are fighting) so you don't have to deal with being thrown into the ceiling.

6k returning to 12 frames yes. I don't see that being to much to ask for.

His mid kick parry needs to attack sooner so it can be used as a counter to the mid kick wake up. You could speed up the start up so it can be used mid string but I'm not a fan of that idea. Seems like something a true defensive character (Lei Fang) should be able to do.

Someone (Max,Jeff,Dark maybe???) pointed out giving JL a guard break from his 1pp and 3kp strings. I'd be ok with that as well. Of course it should be safe...guard breaks that are not safe or plus don't seem right to me. Those attacks look like they have a lot of power behind them and for the character to just stand there and get thrown afterwords or rushed down is odd. You may as well give them an animation of them holding there hand/leg in pain if that is going to be the case.

I'd like DG to be faster again but 18 maybe bit much. Seeing as he is not a grappler I'd be fine with 20 or 21.

Lastly I'm not a fan of things like 66k and 6pp being crushed at point blank range. A few characters can do this and its not cool. Helena using BKO to do so I'm fine with but someone coming in with an attack is not cool. Well... really I just don't like MID attacks being crushed at all lol. Other then like I said Helena's BKO.

There are characters that have either equal or even better wall game than he does, the throw would cancel out his resets, it would only be useful in open space. In my opinion.

Yeah, definitely, removing the cool down frames on 66K, 236P, etc. Would make him way too strong, there's no way that change could ever happen.

I'd be ok with 1PP or 3KP being GBs, i had originally said for these moves to become crushes, since they all essentially end with 246P which i always found weird not to be a crush to begin with.

Jeez... i18 DG, but no, that's one of the reasons why he was top tier in vanilla, i20 would be acceptable though.

 

[RyuJin]

There are characters that have either equal or even better wall game than he does, the throw would cancel out his resets, it would only be useful in open space. In my opinion.

Yeah, definitely, removing the cool down frames on 66K, 236P, etc. Would make him way too strong, there's no way that change could ever happen.

I'd be ok with 1PP or 3KP being GBs, i had originally said for these moves to become crushes, since they all essentially end with 246P which i always found weird not to be a crush to begin with.

Jeez... i18 DG, but no, that's one of the reasons why he was top tier in vanilla, i20 would be acceptable though.

I just feel like if they did give him a throw from stance they would use that as a reason to nerf something. Most likely his 6t against the wall =(.

In DOA2U 246p crushed very well from what I remember. The funny thing is when I first started playing DOA5 I was trying to use it as if it did (muscle memory lol) and was very upset to find that it no longer crushed.

 

[RyuJin]

rising 4 6 P should be a GB, that's his most difficult move to perform and it's unsafe,or atleast make it a bit more safe

I'd love for it to be safer as well BUT...here is the problem. On high counter close hit I think you are getting about 80 points of damage (if someone is on DOA right now could you check?) With that being said its a high damage move. I would also say its 13 frames but due to you needing to come from crouching its at least about 15/16 from standing. Also is only -9 (mid risk/high reward) which is unsafe but you can only be punished by 7/8 frame throws. The best way to use it in its current state imo is to use a light stun and throw it out. Your mix up is throw (Dragon Gunner if you're feeling manly enough) or the Dragon Knuckle.

Like Dark said I'd just like to see it crush highs. As far as the strings that use it...I don't need them to crush but maybe just make them a GB that's safe. I don't think its asking for to much seeing as they took close hit away from the string versions. I mean I'd even be happy with a -5 GB so grapplers could still punish. That or give me my close hit on them.

The thing is 1pp/1pk can both be side stepped. Yes, a JL player could alter the timing of the follow ups to catch your step BUT at least that takes some planning. Where as just using a string from most of the cast beats side step. Same thing goes for 3kp/3k4k. The only thing is he can do 3kk which they could make more unsafe if buffing his dragon knuckle options seem to strong.

 

[DroWin_MaN]

lol they need to just go ahead and make him a 9/ 11 character j/k but man sometimes i just look at his frame data lookin like "why is this unsafe". Strings like P K. Even though nobody really punish it just fact that alot of his strings are unsafe, some i just feel like im stuck with 6p k, because they waiting for me to do something unsafe, or lookin to crush my moves out with their mid to high crushes. Oh yea who remembers 12 frame mid p jann? Good times lol

 

[RyuJin]

Another issue with JL is he has moves that are unsafe and or have a lot of recovery frames. The recovery frames seems to be linked with guard stun (from what little test I've done.) Take Mila's 6pp. It is -11 on block but the recovery is 18 frames. By the time you block it you are to late. If you were not expecting it you will have very little chance at punishing it. Now take JL's 66k. -4 BUT the recovery is 27 (57 on hit lololololololololololololololz.) Due to it being 27 frames you have time to "feel" the fact that it was blocked. Even though it is safe it gives the opponent time to know that they blocked it and if they have a counter play to it they will use it. Where as if you block Mila's 6pp...you have little to know time to react.

JL has a lot of moves with a ton of guard stun. This makes it easier to react to him. Which in turn makes him easier to deal with. DOA is played at a very fast pace. JL lacks mix up (to be fair once stunned you can go crazy.) and has a lot of guard stun on many of his moves. This makes it so unless the connection is laggy (only applies online) he cannot just do string and make things happen. This also only matters when you are fighting good/knowledgeable players.

I do feel that they are trying to balance him seeing as he has a few safe options like 66k, P+K, and 236p (I know 236p can be punished by some characters.) Even 246p is only -9. For the damage it does it could be a lot more unsafe. Sadly if they are not going to remove some recovery on a few moves (Guard stun really...I just think that guard stun is linked to recovery) then maybe making them a bit safer would be a nice buff. One can only dream though lol.