Is Helena the real protagonist of DOA2-4?

[TheHunterKiller692]

I remember saying that I didn't like Helena, but rather than blindly rant based on conjecture, I'd rather make a roundtable discussion of how you view the story through Helena's eyes.

The talking points are as follows:​

*Does she have a more important role than Kasumi and Ayane combined?

*Is she evil or just misunderstood amongst the cast and the audience?

*What was she doing before her arc in DOA 2 started?

*How does she know Kasumi in person?

 

[KasumiLover]

1)I don't consider Helena the protagonist until about DOA4 where the plot focuses mainly on her, in DOA1 its Kasumi, DOA2 is more on Hayate/Ein, DOA3 is more centered on Ayane and DOA4 is where Helena's story is focused on. But in Dimensions her story is focused on way more since the final chapter of the chronicle mode basically streamlines all of her cutscenes from every tournament she's been in

2) I don't consider Helena evil, she's just self serving and vengeful since she lost her mother in front of her and her father prior. I think she comes off that way since she's kinda haughty at times but she does have moments where she seems empathetic like when she interacts with Hayate in Dimensions and when she also in the original DOA2/2U seemed to offer Gen Fu some money for his need to help his granddaughter

3)She was an opera singer since iirc she was following in her mother Maria's footsteps.

3) I'm sure she's familiar with her or at least the Mugen Tenshin clan since she's met Ayane and Hayate prior to DOA4 but I'm almost positive DOA4 is when they met officially when Kasumi tried to dissuade her from the war between DOATEC and the Mugen Tenshin Clan, that and Helena knew about Alpha 152 and likely Kasumi @ so I'm sure she's familiar with DOATEC since in DOA4 she did tell Donovan that she would be reviewing the company structure and she did show she was aware of the cloning they did.

I feel it's more her knowing about Kasumi through the files she's likely seen but not having known her prior

 

[Awesmic]

DOA1: Main protagonist is Kasumi.

DOA2: Main protagonist is Hayabusa.

DOA3: Main protagonist is Ayane.

DOA4: Main protagonist is Helena.

DOA5: There are 3 main protagonists-- Kasumi, Hayate, and Ayane.

DOA6: Main protagonists are Marie Rose and Honoka, and I will die on this hill.

 

[TheHunterKiller692]

DOA1: Main protagonist is Kasumi.

DOA4: Main protagonist is Helena.

DOA6: Main protagonists are Marie Rose and Honoka, and I will die on this hill.

On that note, Marie and Helena serm to know each other pretty well when the two get their first scene together. I suppose it must be tough for Kokoro to part ways with someone who had connections to Miyako, so I imagine that after DOA 6 ended, she must've been in a tough situation overall.

 

[TheIndustrialCowboy]

I suppose it must be tough for Kokoro to part ways with someone who had connections to Miyako, so I imagine that after DOA 6 ended, she must've been in a tough situation overall.

Given the story told in DOA6, I think Team Ninja is in a position to make Kokoro's story a lot more compelling and give her more agency as a character.

 

[Awesmic]

Given the story told in DOA6, I think Team Ninja is in a position to make Kokoro's story a lot more compelling and give her more agency as a character.

Had DOA5 still been under Itagaki's watch, this would've happened a long time ago.

 

[TheIndustrialCowboy]

Had DOA5 still been under Itagaki's watch, this would've happened a long time ago.

I like the idea of Kokoro potentially joining MIST, but having Ayane kill off her mother to get there seems a bit too drastic imo. I think it would be more interesting to have a Luke/Vader-esque moment between Kokoro and Miyako, wherein Miyako offers her the opportunity to join MIST. This could lead into a dramatic and emotionally significant battle between mother and daughter when Kokoro exercises her own independent judgment to determine that what MIST is doing is wrong. This gives agency entirely to Kokoro, rather than having her destiny be dependant on the actions of Helena or Ayane.

 

[TheHunterKiller692]

Had DOA5 still been under Itagaki's watch, things would've been different.

Idk, man. I kinda think that the series needed to let him go, especially with her throwaway "endings" that do nothing to keep me interested with Helena as a character in both 3 and 4.


Also, this line is hilariously ironic considering the horrible shit that she let happen on her watch.

 

[Awesmic]

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Idk, man. I kinda think that the series needed to let him go, especially with her throwaway "endings" that do nothing to keep me interested with Helena as a character in both 3 and 4.

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Also, this line is hilariously ironic considering the horrible shit that she let happen on her watch.

Every fighting game has throwaway arcade endings where one or few are canon. This is a moot argument.

Also - and I hope I'm reading this right - how is Helena's DOA4 ending a "throwaway ending"? It's the most un-throwaway-able ending in the entire game.

 

[TheHunterKiller692]

Every fighting game has throwaway arcade endings where one or few are canon.

I'm not saying they're all like that. Just Helena's in particular because she seems the most devoid of characterization in general and her kit is busted if you know what you're doing.

Also, how is Helena's DOA4 ending a "throwaway ending"?

Good question. Part of it has to do with most of the OG fanbase viewing the entire story from Kasumi's perspective in all the games (Yes, really), and unfortunately her ending is better than Helena's because of one thing: subtletly.

Helena walking away from all the bad shit that, again, she let happen, doesn't make me care for her at all, and my attitude persisted into DOA 5, as well.

 

[Awesmic]

I'm not saying they're all like that. Just Helena's in particular because she seems the most devoid of characterization in general and her kit is busted if you know what you're doing.

Good question. Part of it has to do with most of the OG fanbase viewing the entire story from Kasumi's perspective in all the games (Yes, really), and unfortunately her ending is better than Helena's because of one thing: subtletly.

Helena walking away from all the bad shit that, again, she let happen, doesn't make me care for her at all, and my attitude persisted into DOA 5, as well.

1) My brother in Christ, she lost her friggin' parents (one with a significantly greater attachment than the other) from two separate assassination attempts, and was also met with the pressure of being the only legal heir to Fame Douglas's fortune which just so happens to be a conglomerate hotbed for advanced military weaponry and biotechnology covered by a global-scale tournament. If I were in her shoes, I'd cast aside my emotions too. This "lack of characterization" - as you call it - is a realistically cold demeanor bred from circumstance. At least that's the conclusion I came to with the context given from DOA Dimensions.

2) You do know that Kasumi's DOA4 ending is having a silly random dream of being a mermaid, right? That's not subtle... in fact, I would consider making such a comparison very insulting. Did you even play this game?

 

[TheHunterKiller692]

Did you even play this game?

Yes. I played the story mode with all the characters and saw every ending, but I'm more approaching this from the perspective of "How does this scene differentiate one character from the others?", and Jann and Kasumi are the only characters who manage endings that accomplish that. And playing DOA 3 rubs even more salt in the wounds because almost every ending in DOA 4 is vague, a rule-of-cool action scene or something fucking stupid like Tina or Zack's endings.

Boo hoo, the tyrannical corporation who has subjected entire people into experiments lacking their consent and robbing the entirity of North America blind in the process is now supposed to be looked at as sympathetic while Rig is basically just another corporate assasination tool that Helena doesn't deal with, anyway.

I'm sorry. Where do YOU live? Because as a proud Floridian, I would say with confidence that no one down here gives as much of a shit about Helena as you seem to.

 

[Awesmic]

Yes. I played the story mode with all the characters and saw every ending, but I'm more approaching this from the perspective of "How does this scene differentiate one character from the others?", and Jann and Kasumi are the only characters who manage endings that accomplish that. And playing DOA 3 rubs even more salt in the wounds because almost every ending in DOA 4 is vague, a rule-of-cool action scene or something fucking stupid like Tina or Zack's endings.

Boo hoo, the tyrannical corporation who has subjected entire people into experiments lacking their consent and robbing the entirity of North America blind in the process is now supposed to be looked at as sympathetic while Rig is basically just another corporate assasination tool that Helena doesn't deal with, anyway.

I'm sorry. Where do YOU live? Because as a proud Floridian, I would say with confidence that no one down here gives as much of a shit about Helena as you seem to.

1) Ayane's DOA3 ending is not only far from vague, it's canon as well. We clearly had context that Genra was as close to a father as she had at childhood right up to his betrayal. Hence why despite this, she laid a proper burial out of respect for raising her into the powerful ninja she had become.

2) Zack's DOA3 ending was also canon, given that it led to the events of DOAX, which lasted a span of two weeks.

3) Assuming you're "cultured", I live in the same state Jada Stevens was born in.

Also, there's a local in Jacksonville you might find to your liking... the Obscura Gaming Cafe. But to keep on topic, that's a subject for another time.

 

[TheHunterKiller692]

We clearly had context that Genra was as close to a father as she had at childhood right up to his betrayal. Hence why despite this, she laid a proper burial out of respect for raising her into the powerful ninja she had become.

Either you're really good at making appeals to emotion or you're lying. Ayane and Helena are basically sociopaths, ffs. They don't think of things like Checks And Balances or law and order.

All they do is put their boots on everyone's necks and expect everyone else to follow in line, making the whole "DOATEC VS Mugen-Tenshin War" complete BS from the get-go.

 

[Awesmic]

Either you're really good at making appeals to emotion or you're lying. Ayane and Helena are basically sociopaths, ffs. They don't think of things like Checks And Balances or law and order.

All they do is put their boots on everyone's necks and expect everyone else to follow in line, making the whole "DOATEC VS Mugen-Tenshin War" complete BS from the get-go.

I'm gonna go with the hidden third option "nuanced perspective" for $500, Alex.

Ayane may come from a strict clan of ninjas, but to write her off as a sociopath in such a cut-and-dry manner would be a disservice - not to mention disrespectful - to her character. She may very well be the most fully fleshed out character in the whole series, Ninja Gaiden included.

As a bastard child of the Mugen Tenshin village, she's been through a lot of shit. And it took a lot out of her to trust the better parts of humanity as a whole outside of Hayate, her mother Ayame, and Eliot as a result of those years of being a social pariah. It also didn't help that she envied Kasumi - and rightfully so - because she was treated way better by the villagers simply for being born legitimately.

As for Helena, I strongly disagree that she's a sociopath. I believe she didn't know who to trust at first in the events of the second tournament, then after being freed from captivity by Victor Donovan during the events of the third tournament, acted accordingly in her own way in a discreet manner. When she realized it was too late to stop him and Alpha-152 was complete, she then decided to detonate the tower along with herself as penance. The fact she had taken accountability to such a degree shows me she's far from the sociopath you'd have me to believe.

Also, the DOATEC vs. Mugen Tenshin war didn't just happen on a whim as you're implying. Raidou's lust for power in the Mugen Tenshin snowballed into him selling out to DOATEC upon knowing he'd be exiled after his infidelity. This knowledge of the Mugen Tenshin's supernatural abilities gave Victor Donovan the opportunity he needed to see his own ambitions of biotechnology through, which conflicted directly with Fame Douglas's vision upon funding the DOA tournament in the first place.

As a result, Fame Douglas had to die, and so did Helena. The latter didn't go as planned, so Donovan's Plan B was to confine Helena or silence her. DOATEC also happened to have a Japanese division with its own military, so they could threaten the village at any time knowing where they live. The Mugen Tenshin's hand was forced, and they had to retaliate at the heart of the matter.

The war was not meaningless. Donovan fucked around with ninjas, and he found out. That's all there is to it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some matches to play. It'll be a while before I come back to this thread again.

 

[TheHunterKiller692]

As a bastard child of the Mugen Tenshin village, she's been through a lot of shit. And it took a lot out of her to trust the better parts of humanity as a whole outside of Hayate, her mother Ayame, and Eliot as a result of those years of being a social pariah. It also didn't help that she envied Kasumi - and rightfully so - because she was treated way better by the villagers simply for being born legitimately.

This is the worst reply I've ever had on this site. All the asspulls you call "lore" to justify DOA 4's story being as stupid as it is in grand scheme of things (Kokoro's arc was good from 4-6, tho.), the outright denial Ayane literally cucks Hayabusa in Ninja Gaiden if you die at all (No, the emergency heath items don't count) and "envy"? That's how you look at a woman who basically wants to throw everyone under the bus for her own gain, and Raidou "selling out" to DOATEC? REALLY?! I call BS on all of it.

 

[Awesmic]

This is the worst reply I've ever had on this site. All the asspulls you call "lore" to justify DOA 4's story being as stupid as it is in grand scheme of things (Kokoro's arc was good from 4-6, tho.), the outright denial Ayane literally cucks Hayabusa in Ninja Gaiden if you die at all (No, the emergency heath items don't count) and "envy"? That's how you look at a woman who basically wants to throw everyone under the bus for her own gain, and Raidou "selling out" to DOATEC? REALLY?! I call BS on all of it.

This sounds like an act of desperation to get a certain reaction out of me. But it won't work.

If you simply don't like Ayane and Helena, just say that and move on.

 

[KasumiLover]

I'm not saying they're all like that. Just Helena's in particular because she seems the most devoid of characterization in general and her kit is busted if you know what you're doing.

Good question. Part of it has to do with most of the OG fanbase viewing the entire story from Kasumi's perspective in all the games (Yes, really), and unfortunately her ending is better than Helena's because of one thing: subtletly.

Helena walking away from all the bad shit that, again, she let happen, doesn't make me care for her at all, and my attitude persisted into DOA 5, as well.

Well tbf she wasn't walking away, after Helena had finally found out that Christie, someone she trusted once was the one who murdered her mother, something in her broke and she was going to kill herself by destroying the whole facility while she was inside. She would have died if Zack didn't save her last minute

And in DOA5 I think she was honestly more likeable since she softened up and is now trying to better the company rather than do what Donovan was trying to do behind the scenes

 

[TheHunterKiller692]

If you simply don't like Ayane and Helena, just say that and move on.

Then, I will. (Sorry for the rants and whatnot.)

Well tbf she wasn't walking away, after Helena had finally found out that Christie, someone she trusted once was the one who murdered her mother, something in her broke.

Y'know what? Before Awe tries to blow my brains out, I will concede I did play Helena's story in DOA 3 and it does corroborate your point. I do apologize for my brain spontaneously combusting over other things that are mostly tangental and as a result, making me come across as a dick.