Improving the Neutral: Shimbori Talks System Changes

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Tokyo Game Show 2018 (TGS) took place between the dates of September 20th to September 23rd in the Chiba prefecture outside Tokyo, Japan. It was my first time attending the event, and I had the fortune to visit it during the press-exclusive days of the 20th and 21st in addition to the public days that followed. I came to the event with one goal: To play as much Dead or Alive 6 that I could at the Koei-Tecmo booth. I had previously had the chance to try an earlier demo during the Evolution 2018 (Evo) championships event this past summer, and was looking forward to seeing what had been updated.

I focused primarily on the new character to the series, Diego, at the Evo event since my preferred character (Bass) was not available. I had heard murmurs from the other players that they found Diego to be too strong in such an early build, and wanted to see how he might have been changed. While it's too early to say whether a character is over or under powered, I would have to say that Diego isn't an over-powered character. Based on my experiences with the character at both events, and granted some "character bias" may be in effect here, I would say the character certainly has good throw damage, a good 1PP, and a nice 1K poke. However, he doesn't have much of a good critical game. That is to say, outside of a good Fatal Rush string, he doesn't have any real way to guarantee launchers or extend critical.

Evo was a more hectic and fast-paced event due to the demonstration booths being set up in a way to promote playing the demo with another player. Players would be escorted to stations in a two-man group. This is in contrast to the experience I had at TGS where people were being escorted on a single player basis. A lot of that design is most likely due to a combination of the atmosphere and the culture surrounding the event, especially on the Press-exclusive days. What this meant for me as a fan of the series since I first played Dead or Alive++ was that I would spend most of my time alone with the build. Trust me when I say trying to manage two controllers or arcade sticks to test frame specific timings is a difficult task. Furthermore, the TGS build did not offer an option to see Move Details, even though the option had been announced in the months prior to the event. This limited what I was able to figure out about the build.

Image: /images/news/8060/26171.jpg

Public days at TGS were packed with a line exceeding an hour wait.


The public days didn't fare much better, as the language barrier made it difficult to express desire to test or show things of the system. I had to also keep reminding myself that this was the first time 99.9% of those in attendance were even getting a chance to experience Dead or Alive 6 in any form. The players weren't afforded the opportunities I was by having not only the three days at Evo to get a baseline feel, but the two additional Press days I had with the TGS build. That being said, I was able to get a few matches in with other players like Miyabin and Demekun (Links are to recorded match videos), and it was certainly nice to experience playing Dead or Alive 6 with my preferred controller style of an arcade stick.

The first thing I wanted to test out was the idea of free cancelling the Break Blow cinematic. This was actually a feature from all the way back in the E3 announcement, but it was never announced or shown off properly. I didn't get any time to practice this feature during Evo because I did not find out about it until the stations had already closed. The Break Blow Cancel is done by pressing the Hold button during a small window after the Break Blow lands but before the cinematic kicks off. This effectively uses your full gauge to reset the Critical system and leave the opponent in a Fatal Stun, instead of using it for one hard knock back hit. This also means that since you can juggle an opponent with a Fatal Rush that automatically blends into a Break Blow should you have 100% Break Gauge, you can do a short juggle and re-stand your opponent to launch them again provided your opponent does not Break Hold with 50% of their gauge. Interestingly, if you mash on the Hold button while either in start up of the Break Blow or after the hit has landed, the game seems to ignore the cancel. So the cancel is something that has to be timed specifically with care.

Image: /images/news/8060/26173.jpgNow, testing out the Break Blow Cancel I had many ideas and strategies come to my mind on possibilities of combo extensions, utilizing danger zones, and taking further advantage on an opponent who either had no meter to Break Hold or wasted it by whiffing one. However, while there certainly are long guaranteed combos that are possible, I began to notice that damage revision picks up rather fast once you have launched the opponent. Since Move Details were not available, it's quite difficult to guess at the percentage of revision. I was verified later by Team NINJA community manager Emmanuel "Master" Rodriguez that there is some heavy revision after a few juggle hits have occurred. Additionally, knocking an opponent into a danger zone, while giving them a possible opportunity to hold in some danger zones, doesn't appear to fully reset the Critical system as some combos in the initial Critical state wouldn't appear to work in these "reset" situations as it only allowed fewer hits. Eventually, I began to find combos where doing the Break Blow Cancel, extending the Critical stuns, and relaunching into a Danger Zone seemed to provide more damage than had I not cancelled to begin with. However, that is at the risk of an opponent holding out of the stuns should they gain meter and want to use them.

Additionally, the Critical state itself seemed to have been lessened. Overall, I got a feeling that while stuns were longer due to the removal of Stagger Escape and of long Fatal Stuns, the game seemed to have more focus on the Neutral game. That is, similar to Dead or Alive 2 and Dead or Alive 3, the first hit is the most important. Couple all that with the removal of the Critical Threshold Launch system introduced in Dead or Alive 4 where the closer to full Critical meant a higher launch, and the game feels like a return to the Stun-Launch system of old. This means that you are no longer required to play the Critical game. Your launch height is the same regardless of whether the opponent was early or late in the Critical Threshold system. The lack of Stagger Escape then also makes a lot of critical stuns be "Must Hold" situations.

On top of that, I was able to verify that the Critical System's Damage limits also have had a reduction. By testing with Hayabusa's jab (it's always been 10 damage in every Dead or Alive game) I was able to verify that Dead or Alive 6, at least at the time of the TGS build, has a smaller Critical System. It still plays off the core change introduced in Dead or Alive 4 where the attack putting the opponent into Critical won't count towards the damage threshold. Specifically, I was able to verify that the new damage limits are at 25/30/35 for normal, counter, and hi-counter blow. This is different from Dead or Alive 5 where the limits were 28/35/42. This further leads to the idea that Dead or Alive 6 appears to be having a more focused effort to strengthen the neutral meta-game and lower the amount of time during a match that the game is spent playing the Critical meta-game.

Another area I tested out was the side step system. It practically was unchanged from the Evo demo where the neutral side step felt exactly the same as Dead or Alive 5 and the side step attack felt extremely evasive. However, one instance while playing a pro player in the game stands out to me. I was demonstrating a lot of the system changes to the player, and during our casual matches I was abusing his very linear Hitomi with the side step attack. He exclaimed in shock, "I feel like I have to be careful with how and when I attack!". Instantly, we both felt that strengthening of the neutral game the system now has. To actually have the experience where the game wasn't all about the Critical system was very relieving for me as a player. I had other areas of the game I could focus my strategies on. I'm unsure if I can completely put into words my feelings at that moment, but I just remember me growing a smile.

I like that the Fatal Rush is a high attack, this makes high and low holding stronger, which in turn makes mid-hitting launchers more powerful. Keep in mind that launchers are scarier now as you don't have to play that stun game to get a good launch. While low holding might seem more powerful than a high hold, it's good to keep in mind that a launching attack will launch an opponent higher if they are in crouch state or holding low when hit. One good hit and you can find yourself on the receiving end of a danger zone, especially if your stage positioning and character match-up knowledge is poor. I feel that having the Fatal Rush as a high helps the balance of the attacks, the critical meta, and the game - at least in my view.

That being said, from my experiences at both Evo and TGS, I can say you can still play the game similarly to the style of Dead or Alive 5. It's just that the style may not be the optimal style to play this game, though it currently is the most popular due to players having seven years to practice the Dead or Alive 5 style. Of course, players haven't been given a lot of time with the game due to limited demos and the game is still changing as development continues. It excites me to think of what could be discovered once the game releases in February.

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Yohei Shimbori provided me an interview shortly after the event stream was turned off for the day.



On September 22nd, shortly after the event stream was turned off, I was able to get some time to talk to Dead or Alive 6 Producer and Director Yohei Shimbori. The interview was being done through a bilingual interpreter, and in doing so it is possible some of the wording may have been altered from Shimbori's original intent.

Matt Ponton (MP): The players have noticed that there is no Stagger Escape in Dead or Alive 6's demos. What was the thought process that went along with that decision, and why was it removed from the game after being in the system since Dead or Alive 2?

Image: /images/news/8060/26158.jpgYohei Shimbori (YS): So we started to remove the Stagger Escape mechanic because we didn’t want people to struggle with it; we don't want that to be an artificial skill barrier in order to become good at the game. Players aware of Stagger Escape were able to really speed up recovery and generally did so to the fastest degree, but for people who are new to the game the inclusion of Stagger Escape is hardly noticeable. So we really wanted to make the entry point a lot easier for newer players to the game by making fast recovery the default. So that's one of the reasons why we decided to remove it.

MP: With that in consideration, are you also keeping other areas of the system in mind in regards to balance, such as the Free Step Dash Cancel bug?

YS: The Free Step Dash Cancel bug is something we're looking to fix if it hasn't already been done. Were you able to perform it in this Tokyo Game Show demo?

Master: I have not been able to reproduce the Free Step Dash Cancel bug in the Dead or Alive 6 demo.

YS: So, that's something a small portion of the audience would like something like that, but really for the larger audience we definitely don't want that to be in the game. At one point we did consider incorporating that into the system, but then we thought that it would make it even harder for newer players to enter the game and so we decided against it.

MP: In my own tests on this demo I wasn't able to reproduce it as well. I wanted to make sure that the lack of Stagger Escape wouldn't be abusable with such a bug in the existing Critical System changes. In those tests I also noticed that the critical threshold has been shortened from 28/35/42 to 25/30/35 for normal/counter/hi-counter blow critical stun. It seems that there is less time in critical stun throughout the total time of the round itself. What led your team to decide to lower the amount of time spent in Critical state?

YS: Similar to the previous answer, we wanted to make something for every player. It's something that for people really good at the game they can more easily recover from that, but it's a lot harder for people who are newer. So we've adjusted that as well to make it easier for various types of players. We think it adds an additional layer to the strategy that's involved into the game. You know, it's not just simply about mind games that you're trying to fool the other player, but you really have to think and analyze things through. So this makes it even better for the more expert players.

MP: What led to the decision to remove the Critical Level Launch system that was featured in Dead or Alive 4 and Dead or Alive 5, where a higher Critical Level would reward a higher launch? Is this in relation to the theme of making it easier for new players and decreasing the amount of time a match is spent in Critical State?

YS: That's right. It is the result of decreasing the time spent in reading the critical game and emphasizing the neutral game.

MP: There's a lot of fans out there of Dead or Alive 4 and Dead or Alive 5's ground game. So what changes can they look forward to seeing in Dead or Alive 6 to help them keep pressure and perform setups against players laying on the ground?

YS: So in terms of the ground game, this is something that requires a lot of precise adjustments. You know, one wrong move can really upset the entire system. So it is something that we are still balancing at this point. It's not completely about force teching, and so we want to make sure that there are options for players who want to decide to take it on or want to try and counter it. Also, we are giving people the option of whether they want to get up on their own when they are knocked down. The significance of this may depend on the skill level of the player. But, let’s see how this evolves as we are still adjusting and balancing this feature.

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"We are looking to provide the game equally across all platforms. So we're not just focusing on Steam, but we are concentrating on all platforms being equal."


MP: Speaking of giving players an option to decide, Dead or Alive is the only major 3D Fighting game currently without a universal throw break system. Are there any plans in the future of adding more throws that are breakable on reaction?

YS: A universal throw break system is something that always comes up each time we make a new Dead or Alive game. Dead or Alive is really known for the triangle system, and that's something that we really value for this series. So if immediately you could just always do throw breaks we don't think it will make it a well-balanced game. So having all characters and all moves being able to do that is not something we are planning on incorporating. But one thing we are kind of looking at from a technical level is having around a five frame window for the throw break, and so the speed at which you break the throw will alter the advantage and disadvantage of the throw break. We think if we implement too much of it then it would really change that balance of what Dead or Alive is.

Image: /images/news/8060/26170.jpgMP: So the throw system is something that's still being worked on like the ground game?

YS: Yes, very much so. We're still working on many parts of the system as we come closer to Dead or Alive 6's release.

MP: Dead or Alive 6 appears to be using Steam as its lead platform. Since Dead or Alive 5 Last Round was the series' first foray into the personal computer world, is there anything that Steam users can look forward to specifically with Dead or Alive 6?

YS: We are looking to provide the game equally across all platforms. So we're not just focusing on Steam, but we are concentrating on all platforms being equal. We are aiming for them to be all equal, so the fact that there's a lobby feature is something that we would implement in all versions. That is something we are aiming for right now. Obviously, we are still in the middle of development so we can't exactly say what is going to be in the final product. Our plan is to aim to make the game equal across all platforms. So no matter which platform you own, we hope players should expect the same thing. Specifically for PC or Steam, everyone has different specs for their computers. So in terms of people who have high system specs, we are making it so that the graphics are the highest quality possible. For people who have lower system specs, something we are looking into now is how far we can support the lower end PCs and so that's something that's still under review.

MP: So Phase 4 and Nyotengu are two characters who are going to be early DLC characters. Fans of those two characters were a little upset that those two characters weren't added to the Dead or Alive 5 story upon their release. How will these two characters participate in the Dead or Alive 6 story?

YS: It depends on the character. We did just mention on the Tokyo Game Show stage that Nyotengu is getting a bit of a story for herself, but in terms of Phase 4 we don't really know at this point. It's a secret.

MP: So the story hasn't been finalized yet?

YS: We do have the story, but we just don't have the visuals to go with it yet.

MP: I unfortunately am being told I'm almost out of time here so I have one more hopefully quick question for you: Is Lisa dead?

YS: Lisa is alive. Actually, In Dead or Alive 5 when the M.I.S.T. laboratory exploded, she... Oops I cannot say any more.

That concluded my time with Yohei Shimbori and my experience at Tokyo Game Show. Dead or Alive 6 will be releasing on February 15, 2019 for PlayStation 4, Xbox One, and Steam. The next playable demo for Dead or Alive 6 will be at the Dead or Alive Festival 2018 event at the Ochanomizu Sola City Conference Center in Tokyo, Japan on November 18.
 
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It's less busy work and more just a natural consequence of the system. Advanced movement happens because players will look to make movement safe. At the same time, trying to change things just because it feels like "busywork" can fundamentally change the game, sometimes not for the better.

When a bug becomes a feature of a game then the least you can do is make that bug easier to execute...

DoA5 Vanilla had a similar bug but it was far more broken and TN did manage to successfully get rid of it... to an extent... it was partially left in To Add more Busy Work to the game for specific characters.

LoL... you remember all that drama about Smash removing all the advanced mechanics from Melee ? Well it turns out that wasn't the whole story... The so called "Advanced Skills" that were supposedly removed... weren't actually removed... they were INTEGRATED... I think L-Cancelling is the one people bitch about the most... L-Cancelling wasn't removed... Nintendo noticed the exploit in Melee so for the next Smash game they simply lowered the landing lag for every character across the board... doing away with the need to press a button in a tight window to achieve the same result.... well... a similat result... The new Landing Animations were still slightly inferior to Melee's L-Cancelling.

Does this sound familiar ?

Why yes it does... DoA did the exact same thing with The Stagger Escaping in DoA6...

The same can be done with 50% of the so called "Advanced Skills" in many Fighting Games (KBD's, Tiger Knee Motion, Instant Air Dash, etc) but the FGC has its head too far up its own ass being hard core to even consider it... honestly I'm surprised a game like Fantasy Strike even managed to become a thing given how this genre has an aversion to all things Accessible.

Look at how StarCraft 2 fixed the pathing and removed unit selection restrictions from Brood War. The result was a less interesting game focused around "death balls" instead of precise movement and control.

I know didly squat about Star Craft... and after watching this:


I want nothing to do with it. Its literally the RTS Equivalent of The ass backwards Hardcore mentality of Fighting Games... adding more Unnecessary Busy Work mechanics some how makes the game deeper... I haven't played the game myself but the way I hear it... Star Craft has a shitty interface... it could be improved to make the game more intuitive but isn't because of... "Reasons".

Tekken isn't really complex or strict tbh unless you're playing a mishima or another high execution character, but then again I only would use Lili, or even Anna who's the most complex character in Tekken I can use

I always have the Unfortunate displeasure of liking characters that are a pain the ass in The execution department.
  1. VF5 - Vanessa
  2. DoA5 - Alpha & Jacky
  3. SFIV - Everybody
  4. SFV - Ryu & Sakura
  5. Tekken 6 - Everybody
  6. Tekken 7 - Master Raven, Law & King
  7. Guilty Gear - Everybody but that didn't bother me... It was not being able to play Baiken that bothered me.
  8. BlazBlue - Everybody... But it was fine... game pissed me off before I got attach to any specific character.
  9. KoF XIV - Vanessa... yep... just Vanessa.
  10. MKX - never had a chance to play it much... but I really wanted to play Liu Kang (Because of Jacky)
  11. Injustice - Lobo, Harley Quin, Shazam... pretty much anyone with a Command Throw... that motion was stupid.

I believe thats everything... 11 Games and only 1 Really stuck with me... 2 are some what bearable... the other 8 are just borderline frustrating.

Games are full of these advanced things that players discover in an effort to play around the system that end up defining them at high level play.

and its the developer responsibility to make sure these things don't hurt the experience not just for veterans... but for noobs as well. Games shouldn't take weeks of training before you can enjoy them.
 
When a bug becomes a feature of a game then the least you can do is make that bug easier to execute...

DoA5 Vanilla had a similar bug but it was far more broken and TN did manage to successfully get rid of it... to an extent... it was partially left in To Add more Busy Work to the game for specific characters.

LoL... you remember all that drama about Smash removing all the advanced mechanics from Melee ? Well it turns out that wasn't the whole story... The so called "Advanced Skills" that were supposedly removed... weren't actually removed... they were INTEGRATED... I think L-Cancelling is the one people bitch about the most... L-Cancelling wasn't removed... Nintendo noticed the exploit in Melee so for the next Smash game they simply lowered the landing lag for every character across the board... doing away with the need to press a button in a tight window to achieve the same result.... well... a similat result... The new Landing Animations were still slightly inferior to Melee's L-Cancelling.

Does this sound familiar ?

Why yes it does... DoA did the exact same thing with The Stagger Escaping in DoA6...

The same can be done with 50% of the so called "Advanced Skills" in many Fighting Games (KBD's, Tiger Knee Motion, Instant Air Dash, etc) but the FGC has its head too far up its own ass being hard core to even consider it... honestly I'm surprised a game like Fantasy Strike even managed to become a thing given how this genre has an aversion to all things Accessible.



I know didly squat about Star Craft... and after watching this:


I want nothing to do with it. Its literally the RTS Equivalent of The ass backwards Hardcore mentality of Fighting Games... adding more Unnecessary Busy Work mechanics some how makes the game deeper... I haven't played the game myself but the way I hear it... Star Craft has a shitty interface... it could be improved to make the game more intuitive but isn't because of... "Reasons".



I always have the Unfortunate displeasure of liking characters that are a pain the ass in The execution department.
  1. VF5 - Vanessa
  2. DoA5 - Alpha & Jacky
  3. SFIV - Everybody
  4. SFV - Ryu & Sakura
  5. Tekken 6 - Everybody
  6. Tekken 7 - Master Raven, Law & King
  7. Guilty Gear - Everybody but that didn't bother me... It was not being able to play Baiken that bothered me.
  8. BlazBlue - Everybody... But it was fine... game pissed me off before I got attach to any specific character.
  9. KoF XIV - Vanessa... yep... just Vanessa.
  10. MKX - never had a chance to play it much... but I really wanted to play Liu Kang (Because of Jacky)
  11. Injustice - Lobo, Harley Quin, Shazam... pretty much anyone with a Command Throw... that motion was stupid.

I believe thats everything... 11 Games and only 1 Really stuck with me... 2 are some what bearable... the other 8 are just borderline frustrating.



and its the developer responsibility to make sure these things don't hurt the experience not just for veterans... but for noobs as well. Games shouldn't take weeks of training before you can enjoy them.
As stated, the problem lies when trying to make things more accessible actually negatively affects the game. I mention StarCraft 2 specifically because all the interface and pathing changes negatively affected high level play and made the game boring to watch. SC2 is a game where if you bring X into a fight vs Y, you know that X is going to win, whereas in BW, this is up to the player.

In Tekken, the lack of a block button (neutral or back to block) likely means that the only way to make KBD would be to allow blocking during backdash, or worse, give them invulnerability., which would have negative implications for a game.
 
As stated, the problem lies when trying to make things more accessible actually negatively affects the game. I mention StarCraft 2 specifically because all the interface and pathing changes negatively affected high level play and made the game boring to watch. SC2 is a game where if you bring X into a fight vs Y, you know that X is going to win, whereas in BW, this is up to the player.

What's BW?

Also I don't believe Making X easier makes the game worse is that cut and dry. Especially in This specific genre where theres never been an honest attempt to genuinely make something easier to do... its always this last minute half ass solution that makes no attempt to even hide how little they care about the feature.

In Star Craft 2's case ? Did they actually try ? Was the change given the full Valve/Nintendo battery of quality assurance and iterative refinement to make sure it worked ? If not then It doesn't count.

In Tekken, the lack of a block button (neutral or back to block) likely means that the only way to make KBD would be to allow blocking during backdash, or worse, give them invulnerability., which would have negative implications for a game.

it seems like you missed the point of my Melee story.

You don't need KBD if you increase the backward movement speed to compensate for its removal.... If that some how will have negative implications then really those negatives are already there since That's what The KBD does already.

In which case it shows people aren't bitching about the game being dumbed down but rather they're bitching because the game is exposed for not having any real depth in the first place... only Unnecessary Busy Work.
 
What's BW?
Brood War, short for StarCraft Brood War.
Also I don't believe Making X easier makes the game worse is that cut and dry. Especially in This specific genre where theres never been an honest attempt to genuinely make something easier to do... its always this last minute half ass solution that makes no attempt to even hide how little they care about the feature.

In Star Craft 2's case ? Did they actually try ? Was the change given the full Valve/Nintendo battery of quality assurance and iterative refinement to make sure it worked ? If not then It doesn't count.
They did, which was the problem. Brood War required a ton of micro to make units behave in the way you'd want due to the game's problematic patching AI due to it being an isometric game built on a top down engine (Warcraft 2's engine). SC2 however fixed this simply due to it no longer being tied to the old tile based system. However, this resulted in the negative effects I stated above.

If you have the patience for it, there's a more comprehensive and technical write up on it here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/429573-broodwar-and-starcraft-2-pathing
it seems like you missed the point of my Melee story.

You don't need KBD if you increase the backward movement speed to compensate for its removal.... If that some how will have negative implications then really those negatives are already there since That's what The KBD does already.

In which case it shows people aren't bitching about the game being dumbed down but rather they're bitching because the game is exposed for not having any real depth in the first place... only Unnecessary Busy Work.
You're forgetting to factor in the cascade of other changes that will come from doing that. For one, you'd then need to increase forward dash speeds to match up to the backdash. Then you'd have to consider how increasing backdash speeds will affect the ability to punish backdashes - specifically, in the current system, whether or not a backdash is punished is up to the players skill, whereas by speeding it up and removing KBD, it now becomes something pre-determined where X attack will always whiff against backdash, whereas Y hit due to frame data and hitboxes.

In the former situation, there's more of the players involved since their individual skill comes into play in this small situation, whereas in the latter, it's more or less pre-determined. This is the same issue discussed above with SC2 vs Brood War. There were situations in the former where a certain composition of one set of units would be more or less guaranteed to win versus an opposing composition of another set, whereas in the latter, whether or not a player could successfully micromanage their units was more of a deciding factor.

What you call "busywork" is actually small moments in the game where players can express their skill to gain an advantage. Removing them doesn't expose a game's "lack of depth", rather it robs them of depth because it makes situations more pre-determined.

Now we've gone way off topic long enough, to try to steer it back. The main difference between these things and SE, is that SE happens in the middle of combos, which creates a negative impact on the neutral game. KBD happens in the neutral, and is something that adds to the neutral. SE de-emphasizes the neutral because it reduces the consequences of losing in the neutral.
 
TL:DR you're probably a busy guy and as you can tell I'm all about The Giant Walls of Text....

So to keep things simple Mark Brown made two 15 Minute Videos that show case my Kind of depth and your kind of depth.

This is your kind of Depth:

This is my kind of Depth:

You know whats silly ?

They aren't even mutually exclusive... you can have both... they key is not to force your Horrible Controls on everyone else.

Brood War, short for StarCraft Brood War.

Thanks...

Brood War, short for StarCraft Brood War.

They did, which was the problem. Brood War required a ton of micro to make units behave in the way you'd want due to the game's problematic patching AI due to it being an isometric game built on a top down engine (Warcraft 2's engine). SC2 however fixed this simply due to it no longer being tied to the old tile based system. However, this resulted in the negative effects I stated above.

If you have the patience for it, there's a more comprehensive and technical write up on it here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/429573-broodwar-and-starcraft-2-pathing

Patience isn't my strong suite... but I'm sure there will be a point one day where I might get curious enough to read it.

You're forgetting to factor in the cascade of other changes that will come from doing that. For one, you'd then need to increase forward dash speeds to match up to the backdash. Then you'd have to consider how increasing backdash speeds will affect the ability to punish backdashes - specifically, in the current system, whether or not a backdash is punished is up to the players skill, whereas by speeding it up and removing KBD, it now becomes something pre-determined where X attack will always whiff against backdash, whereas Y hit due to frame data and hitboxes.

Those Problems already exists specifically because of the KBD...

Thats my point...

a while back I got into a "discussion" with a certain someone about The Difficulty of Phase 4's Teleports. The summary of his argument was if you make her Teleports easier then any ol'Joe will be able to get big damage, Which would make the game unbalanced... My argument was if The Damage is a problem then its going to be a problem regardless of whether the Teleports are easy or not... in which case there's no point in making any one suffer for days in Training Mode reaching the profeciency to experience that Character's Selling Point....

Unfortunately we weren't able to reach common ground.... I labelled him a Noob-a-Phobe and that was that.

I mean Capcom could have done the same thing to AE Abigail, they could have just let him keep his TOD Combos if they made them one frame links... problem solved right ? Only our Genre has this Sort Of Selective Logic.

Its the same thing With KBD's... If KBD's aren't problematic now then they won't be problematic if you create an accessible substitute as a replacement... hell... why not have both in the game so they can make more direct comparisons... Much like DoA does with its Side Step Command options... well I mean... Obviously nobody's going to set it to KBD... I know I wouldn't... Would you ?

In the former situation, there's more of the players involved since their individual skill comes into play in this small situation, whereas in the latter, it's more or less pre-determined.

Then why stop at KBD's ? I mean if they wanted to you can apply complex motions and strict timing into every tiny aspect of the game's mechanics... If you want the game to require more "Skill" its definitely achievable... not just in Fighting Games but in literally everything from Platformers to Social Sims.

How about some SFD (Scandinavian Forward Dash)... or is that what wave dashing is already ? Or maybe more advanced blocking that requires you to hold down 3 buttons instead of 1 ? Why ? Because it requires more skill.

But what would be the point ?

Well yeah we've already determined that you want the game to require more advance skills but why focus this in the controls specifically ? Does the game have nothing else to offer outside of its controls ?

If I encountered KBD in Mario or Tomb Raider then I would be curious as to why most of the difficulty is focused on something has no effect on the rest of the gameplay... Hopping over a Death pit will be hopping over a death pit regardless of what the controls are so whats the point of making them complicated ?

What you call "busywork" is actually small moments in the game where players can express their skill to gain an advantage. Removing them doesn't expose a game's "lack of depth", rather it robs them of depth because it makes situations more pre-determined.

LoL... oh I see now...

I think its a difference of perspectives.

Heres how I see it... KBD is something you have to learn to stop the game from being worse... hence replacing it makes no difference.

The way you see it is different. You see KBD as an option... The fact that its te best option makes no difference to you hence replacing it (effectively removing the option of not being able to KBD) is viewed as some sort loss...

Either way... No depth is lost... whats lost is the ability to NOT use an obviously use dominant mechanic.... which I didn't know was such a big deal...

in other words you want The Busy Work... not depth... which is fine... the real question is why do you want to force Busy Work one everyone else ? I mean I like to side step with :H+P+K: but I'm not going to cry bloody murder or claim the game is less deep if someone wants to side step with :2::2:/:8::8:.... it doesn't affect the way I play... so let them do them.... but suggest an alternate method for KBD and all of sudden its Def Con 1 and the game is literally unplayable. :eek:

Now we've gone way off topic long enough, to try to steer it back. The main difference between these things and SE, is that SE happens in the middle of combos, which creates a negative impact on the neutral game. KBD happens in the neutral, and is something that adds to the neutral. SE de-emphasizes the neutral because it reduces the consequences of losing in the neutral.

Uhm... no it doesn't. The only reason I think you would believe that is if you never bothered to learn you Non-Stagger Escapable setups... and then you when people block your Fradulent Critical Burst you think they pulled a fast one on you....

This never happens to me because I literally only use Stuns that I know will fit... its just a habbit you pick up when your friends Button Mash like theres a reward for it and the AI Cheats like a Psychic Gambler.

Granted this is harder to do with Brad Wong but 3 Sets against me or anyone who takes DoA seriously and you definitely won't feel like Getting hit is no big deal...

Now if we were talking about :h:olds then that would be something else all together...

As for KBD... its not that KBD that adds to the neutral... its added the movement speed that adds to the trouble... What you fail to see is those two things don't have to be tethered to each other. Atleast not for everyone.
 
TL:DR you're probably a busy guy and as you can tell I'm all about The Giant Walls of Text....

So to keep things simple Mark Brown made two 15 Minute Videos that show case my Kind of depth and your kind of depth.

This is your kind of Depth:

This is my kind of Depth:

You know whats silly ?

They aren't even mutually exclusive... you can have both... they key is not to force your Horrible Controls on everyone else.



Thanks...



Patience isn't my strong suite... but I'm sure there will be a point one day where I might get curious enough to read it.



Those Problems already exists specifically because of the KBD...

Thats my point...

a while back I got into a "discussion" with a certain someone about The Difficulty of Phase 4's Teleports. The summary of his argument was if you make her Teleports easier then any ol'Joe will be able to get big damage, Which would make the game unbalanced... My argument was if The Damage is a problem then its going to be a problem regardless of whether the Teleports are easy or not... in which case there's no point in making any one suffer for days in Training Mode reaching the profeciency to experience that Character's Selling Point....

Unfortunately we weren't able to reach common ground.... I labelled him a Noob-a-Phobe and that was that.

I mean Capcom could have done the same thing to AE Abigail, they could have just let him keep his TOD Combos if they made them one frame links... problem solved right ? Only our Genre has this Sort Of Selective Logic.

Its the same thing With KBD's... If KBD's aren't problematic now then they won't be problematic if you create an accessible substitute as a replacement... hell... why not have both in the game so they can make more direct comparisons... Much like DoA does with its Side Step Command options... well I mean... Obviously nobody's going to set it to KBD... I know I wouldn't... Would you ?



Then why stop at KBD's ? I mean if they wanted to you can apply complex motions and strict timing into every tiny aspect of the game's mechanics... If you want the game to require more "Skill" its definitely achievable... not just in Fighting Games but in literally everything from Platformers to Social Sims.

How about some SFD (Scandinavian Forward Dash)... or is that what wave dashing is already ? Or maybe more advanced blocking that requires you to hold down 3 buttons instead of 1 ? Why ? Because it requires more skill.

But what would be the point ?

Well yeah we've already determined that you want the game to require more advance skills but why focus this in the controls specifically ? Does the game have nothing else to offer outside of its controls ?

If I encountered KBD in Mario or Tomb Raider then I would be curious as to why most of the difficulty is focused on something has no effect on the rest of the gameplay... Hopping over a Death pit will be hopping over a death pit regardless of what the controls are so whats the point of making them complicated ?



LoL... oh I see now...

I think its a difference of perspectives.

Heres how I see it... KBD is something you have to learn to stop the game from being worse... hence replacing it makes no difference.

The way you see it is different. You see KBD as an option... The fact that its te best option makes no difference to you hence replacing it (effectively removing the option of not being able to KBD) is viewed as some sort loss...

Either way... No depth is lost... whats lost is the ability to NOT use an obviously use dominant mechanic.... which I didn't know was such a big deal...

in other words you want The Busy Work... not depth... which is fine... the real question is why do you want to force Busy Work one everyone else ? I mean I like to side step with :H+P+K: but I'm not going to cry bloody murder or claim the game is less deep if someone wants to side step with :2::2:/:8::8:.... it doesn't affect the way I play... so let them do them.... but suggest an alternate method for KBD and all of sudden its Def Con 1 and the game is literally unplayable. :eek:



Uhm... no it doesn't. The only reason I think you would believe that is if you never bothered to learn you Non-Stagger Escapable setups... and then you when people block your Fradulent Critical Burst you think they pulled a fast one on you....

This never happens to me because I literally only use Stuns that I know will fit... its just a habbit you pick up when your friends Button Mash like theres a reward for it and the AI Cheats like a Psychic Gambler.

Granted this is harder to do with Brad Wong but 3 Sets against me or anyone who takes DoA seriously and you definitely won't feel like Getting hit is no big deal...

Now if we were talking about :h:olds then that would be something else all together...

As for KBD... its not that KBD that adds to the neutral... its added the movement speed that adds to the trouble... What you fail to see is those two things don't have to be tethered to each other. Atleast not for everyone.
This has gone off topic enough. So the last thing I'm gonna say is that there are a lot of dangerous generalisations here.
 
After reading this I'm reminded that SNK's most recent game is the product of exactly what you're talking about. I don't know if you've seen much of SNK Heroines... Or played it... But you can keep that away from DOA and Tekken. That's the end result of the path you speak of.

No one wants that.

Great article though! My deepest adoration for just busting the Lisa question on him at the end of the interview, and I'm elated he didn't hold his tongue.
 
That moment you realize Zatch Bell Mamodo Battles had the best movement mechanics of any fighting game ever made . . .

Should have asked Shimbori whether their observations of the tournament scene over the years had any influence on the changes that were made.

Well Tom Lee attended many of the Official Battle Royal Tournaments in the west... I'm sure he gathered valuable data and feedback from both the players and spectators...

I also spotted him in the Background at a SFV tournament... maybe he's going to betray us. :eek:
 
After reading this I'm reminded that SNK's most recent game is the product of exactly what you're talking about. I don't know if you've seen much of SNK Heroines... Or played it... But you can keep that away from DOA and Tekken. That's the end result of the path you speak of.

No one wants that.

Great article though! My deepest adoration for just busting the Lisa question on him at the end of the interview, and I'm elated he didn't hold his tongue.
Technically, SNK Heroines is a cross between Smash and an anime airdasher. Which is the more accurate reason of why no one (outside of cmv makers - the combo engine is highly abusable) wants it.
 
Technically, SNK Heroines is a cross between Smash and an anime airdasher. Which is the more accurate reason of why no one (outside of cmv makers - the combo engine is highly abusable) wants it.
People were defending the game saying, "But it's for newer players!" This is what happens when you make a game too easy. BBTAG is another game.
 
People were defending the game saying, "But it's for newer players!" This is what happens when you make a game too easy. BBTAG is another game.
SNK themselves stated the Smash/airdasher thing. And anything about being newbie friendly doesn't jive with how complicated some of the combos can be.
 
This is a pointless discussion and it's not relevant to the subject of the thread lol Lulu doesn't see the merit in fighting games demanding more out of players than mental acuity to reach greatness. Case closed. Move on. :)
 
This is a pointless discussion and it's not relevant to the subject of the thread lol Lulu doesn't see the merit in fighting games demanding more out of players than mental acuity to reach greatness. Case closed. Move on. :)

There is no merit... that being said... I'm not against letting the players who want to deal with the unnecessary execution have what they want... I'm only against them forcing it on everyone else.
 
If mental acuity was all it took to reach greatness I'd be a gold medalist in Olympic men's gymnastics by now. But I'm not because I havent put the prerequisite time and energy into training and honing myself to that level of competition.

It's also why top players in DOA and ESPECIALLY Tekken could 0-2 grind my face to paste with little to no effort in an overwhelmingly embarrassing gap of ability.

Asking that fighting games be braindead is asking that the worth of the work these guys put into their craft be reduced as well. And I agree with them, it's wrong. You want to be good at fighting games? Be good at fighting games. How convoluted the meta and forced mechanics are is irrelevant. If you're going to play on a casual level you're going to play on a casual level regardless of how difficult it is to reach the top. If you're cut from a gemstone and going to reach the top you're going to get there regardless of how difficult the task is.

This discussion is like complaining that free step canceling is too hard to perform so it's unfair when a top level player, that you were not going to beat anyway, stunts on you with it and mollywhops you.
 
Leave the hard inputs and execution alone. Survival of the fittest :p

LoL... what do you think I've been trying to do all this time ?... Give me customizeable controls and I can leav'em pretty easily...

If mental acuity was all it took to reach greatness I'd be a gold medalist in Olympic men's gymnastics by now. But I'm not because I havent put the prerequisite time and energy into training and honing myself to that level of competition.

Uhm.... DoA and Gymnastics are two entirely different things... You do know that, right ?

It's also why top players in DOA and ESPECIALLY Tekken could 0-2 grind my face to paste with little to no effort in an overwhelmingly embarrassing gap of ability.

Yeah and ?

If they're good then they deserve to win... honestly I'd be happy just being able to play Better DoA players... the fun thing for me about DoA is at least I wouldn't be losing because I can execute the move... I'd be losing because I'd be misusing the move.

Can't say the same for Tekken though... which would explain why you said "ESPECIALLY Tekken"...

Asking that fighting games be braindead is asking that the worth of the work these guys put into their craft be reduced as well. And I agree with them, it's wrong. You want to be good at fighting games? Be good at fighting games. How convoluted the meta and forced mechanics are is irrelevant. If you're going to play on a casual level you're going to play on a casual level regardless of how difficult it is to reach the top. If you're cut from a gemstone and going to reach the top you're going to get there regardless of how difficult the task is.

I don't want Fighting Games to be Brain Dead... I want Fighting Games to be Muscle Dead... The focus on Dexterity is the very thing thats making Fighting Games Brain Dead in the first place... Like seriously have you never seen a pro player beat a newbie on execution alone ? That, Sweetness, Is brain dead.
 
Uhm.... DoA and Gymnastics are two entirely different things... You do know that, right ?
Are they? Are they really? You're examining things at a base level. One is physically grueling while the other is not and they both require different dexterity skills. Yet at the core of your argument you would take all physical demand out of both tasks and leave only mental acuity the deciding factor. You're reacting this way because the comparison is absurd to you.... I'll wait for what I'm talking about to sink in.

I don't want Fighting Games to be Brain Dead... I want Fighting Games to be Muscle Dead... The focus on Dexterity is the very thing thats making Fighting Games Brain Dead in the first place... Like seriously have you never seen a pro player beat a newbie on execution alone ? That, Sweetness, Is brain dead.
This is a flawed mindset. The pro player beat the newbie on execution alone because the newbie IS playing braindead Lulu. lol The Newbie isn't thinking about frames or advantage/disadvantage or what's safe. If they aren't thinking about any of the things the pro player is accustomed to accounting for then the pro player is literally just going to auto-pilot. I've been to a few locals for Smash and Tekken and when the guys that are competing and serious about winning fight people they know wont make it out of pools in casuals, they will autopilot beat them down because they don't want to waste energy. That doesn't make them braindead, that means you're literally not worth them expending the effort to take seriously so they aren't going to download your playstyle because it's pointless.
 
I'm kind of whatever on whether something is difficult to execute or not. Pad users chaining off Akira's 1 frame knee? Ya, thats pretty impressive. On a stick? Eh, not really. When you sit down and think about it, is it really necessary for that kind of execution? I personally don't see it differentiating overall player skill. Ya sure, they are rewarded slightly more with a better juggle for doing a more difficult execution, but I personally see how people deal with the neutral game as more important than how well they execute a muscle memory juggle.

If its there, its there, so I'm whatever about it, as I don't really have problems executing specific moves, but I personally don't see it as necessary to make a fighter better. I think overall mechanics > obscene input difficulty.

Heck, one of Bass' best damage setups in DoA3 was a simple :426::F+P:

The Newbie isn't thinking about frames or advantage/disadvantage or what's safe.

How does this correlate to dexterity and input difficulty?
 
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